General Christian Discussions

An interesting read. – MadProf

MadProf
Member

Posts: 181
From: Larnaka, Cyprus
Registered: 01-24-2001
MMIO and St.Cheese, I just read thru all of your argument - sorry, i mean discussion - about Speaking in tounges etc. I checked on the NETbible some of the referances y'all pointed to, and while there (on bible.org) i found a "Questions and Answers" Area. I like these a lot. So I entered the Q/A area, and then onto "Theology, Pneumatology (Holy Spirit)". Have a read thru all those docs there, and see what you think of 'em.

MadProf

MadProf
Member

Posts: 181
From: Larnaka, Cyprus
Registered: 01-24-2001
oops! forgot to mention the URL!

http://www.bible.org

- the root site.

http://www.bible.org/docs/qa/

- the QA area.

http://www.bible.org/docs/qa/default.asp?CategoryID=16&ParentID=0

- the specific area.

MadProf

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
MadProf: It's nice to see someone responding to the discussing thoughtfully instead of aggressively. However, I went to look at the site and the first question I brought up was this:

quote:

Question: If tongues are made an issue, how should it be handled in the church?

Answer:


I believe the best approach is NOT to forbid people from speaking in tongues, as Paul himself said. Frankly, I suspect that the gift of tongues had already died out or was on its last legs when Paul wrote to the Corinthians (c. AD 55). Yet he did not forbid these friends from tongues-speaking. Instead, he gave us a model for how to deal with spiritual gifts. In 1 Cor 12-14 he said basically three things about spiritual gifts: (1) understand that not all are equally important, and that tongues is the least important of all (ch. 12); (2) realize that regardless of anyone’s giftedness, love is a far more beneficial ‘gift’ to exercise (ch. 13); (3) the exercise of spiritual gifts must be always for the edification of the whole body, and it must be regulated and done with propriety (ch. 14).

Instead of forbidding tongues-speaking, Paul prioritized the gifts, regulated the gifts, and subordinated the gifts to love (relationships are more important). I have found that when all the pizzazz is taken out of the experience by following exactly what scripture demands, the experience usually dries up on its own. That’s a whole lot better than telling someone, “Don’t do it!”


This person is clearly presenting their own interpretation ( as is anyone who speaks on the Bible ) and one that opposes the gift of tongues, albeit in a gentle way. My problem is that he says he feels the gift was dying out when Paul wrote his letter, yet Paul says it will die out when we see God face to face. Unless that has happened for anyone you know ( which means I am in trouble ;0) I would suggest his interrpetations are suspect as they do not line up with scripture.

Other examples, in the question

Question: How can our church learn to speak in tongues? ( answer: they cannot it is a gift God gives )

He says tongues are languages understood by men. Yet Paul says NO man understands tongues, for we speak directly to God ( 1 Cor 14 ).

As usual, the question

Question: Were the Samaritans an illustration of a “second blessing”?

ignores the most basic problem with their interpretation - if people 'usually' have the Holy Spirit through faith and as a result of faith, how did Phillip know this was not the case this time ? Is faith different to beliving ? Pauls first question to a group of believers in Acts 19 was 'Have you recieved the Holy Spirit since you believed'.

I agree with a lot of what this guy is saying, as far as love is concerned and the order of things in the church. However, he and I clearly disagree on who the church is. People who speak in tongues should not feel more spiritual and look down on those in the church who do not, they should go to a church that preaches the Gospel clearly, so that people who do not speak in tongues do not buy the lie of salvation apart from the Holy Spirit.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, I've posted a reply to St Cheez on his thoughts re: 1 Cor 12-14 in a new thread he started. I'm curious to know, do you agree with Revelator that the Holy Spirit is telling him not to talk to me ? Is the Holy Spirit telling you the same thing ?

MadProf
Member

Posts: 181
From: Larnaka, Cyprus
Registered: 01-24-2001
quote:
This person is clearly presenting their own interpretation ( as is anyone who speaks on the Bible ) and one that opposes the gift of tongues, albeit in a gentle way. My problem is that he says he feels the gift was dying out when Paul wrote his letter, yet Paul says it will die out when we see God face to face.

I wondered about this myself. i personally think you are mistaken about the tongues thing, but i also think this guy is a bit weird too. i didn't think a gift *could* "die out", however, it is possible that in this day and age it is a less given gift. The point is, that it IS a gift, not a required/always there part of being a believer. i'll go back to my example, what about if someone was born without a voice box, or something, so they could not talk at all? if they became a believer, IYO, would they speak in tongues?

quote:
Unless that has happened for anyone you know ( which means I am in trouble ;0)

LOL!


quote:
I would suggest his interrpetations are suspect as they do not line up with scripture.

i'm afraid to say i think the same about yours... however, dont take this as being rude or something. you probably think the same about mine.

quote:
Question: How can our church learn to speak in tongues? ( answer: they cannot it is a gift God gives )

He says tongues are languages understood by men. Yet Paul says NO man understands tongues, for we speak directly to God ( 1 Cor 14 ).


this is kinda complex. when the disciples recieved the Holy Spirit, in acts, they spoke in tongues, and the people could understand them, and they were able to speak in tongues (languages) that they could not speak before. however, some people said they were drunk, so does that seem to say that those people could not understand them? or that they were talking about the disciples that were talking other languages to the ones that they themselves spoke? and what about interperetations of tongues? surely that person understands the tongue that is being spoken?


quote:
ignores the most basic problem with their interpretation - if people 'usually' have the Holy Spirit through faith and as a result of faith, how did Phillip know this was not the case this time?

the Holy Spirit told him so?

quote:
Is faith different to beliving ? Pauls first question to a group of believers in Acts 19 was 'Have you recieved the Holy Spirit since you believed'.

yes. if a person believes in Jesus, but does not have faith in Jesus redeeming him from his sins, does that show the difference? and about pauls question, could this be asking if they accepted and asked to be forgiven after believing that Jesus is the son of God? some people, strange as it may seem, do not ask Jesus to forgive them, even if they believe everything.


quote:
I agree with a lot of what this guy is saying, as far as love is concerned and the order of things in the church. However, he and I clearly disagree on who the church is. People who speak in tongues should not feel more spiritual and look down on those in the church who do not, they should go to a church that preaches the Gospel clearly, so that people who do not speak in tongues do not buy the lie of salvation apart from the Holy Spirit.

what is "salvation", in your definition? being saved, is the literal meaning, and so "being saved from going to hell" would be the meaning i would take from the word. and since the only alternative to hell is heaven, and the only way to heaven (or the kingdom of God, not quite sure if there is a difference) is Jesus, you have to accept Jesus to go to heaven. however, at youthgroup here, we had a discussion this night with a group of non-leader people from the church answering questions, and one of them was "what about people who lived before Jesus? And what about people who never get a chance to hear the gospel?", now this is a difficult question, one chap, a fairly liberal chap, in my opinion (from difference answers he gave, and a bit this one), said that basically, its whats in your heart that matters, and that because God loves us, he will not want us to go to hell, and send Jesus, and the bible, etc, to show us the way to heaven, and to be forgiven for our sins because of Jesus sacrifice. So if we accept Jesus' sacrifice, we go to heaven. Now that seems fairly sound to me, but he went on saying that he thought that people who never got a chance to hear about Jesus would be judged by God on what their hearts were like, how they felt, etc. A bit like in the Narnia books how Aslan accepted people thru the shed into the "next narnia" even if they were followers of tash, IF they were people who loved. As Paul said, Love is the most important thing, love for God, and then love for fellow humans. however, Jesus said "whoever is not for me is against me" and so this seems to say that all non-christains are against Jesus, and so will not go to heaven. I guess we wont know until we get there.

Now, you say "lie of salvation apart from the Holy Spirit.", and, in your view, "having" the holy spirit means you will speak in tongues. I do not believe this is so, and that the holy spirit often lives in us without any dramatic outside effects/show of speaking in tongues. I think that if it was as important a point as you make out, it would be explained in a slightly more comprehensable manner in the bible, or in a way that made it clear, which it is not. You say that it is, and that this verse here, and that that verse there say so, but it can be interperated differently, unlike, say, issues about sexual immorality, or other issues, which are clearly stated.

You have given many arguments for believing that when a person recieves the Holy Spirit they speak in tongues, however, the verses you quote can often be interperated differently, and i have read and heard many arguments for not believing this. I dont believe you will ever convice me of this, as through my reading of the bible recently, I have found NO proof of what you say, and always, when I ask God to help me find understanding, I find a verse which says the oposite (at least to me), 1 Cor 13:1, the whole of 1 Cor 12, and many other verses. You interperate these verses differently.

quote:
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, I've posted a reply to St Cheez on his thoughts re: 1 Cor 12-14 in a new thread he started.

well, you heard 'em!


quote:
I'm curious to know, do you agree with Revelator that the Holy Spirit is telling him not to talk to me?

that is not an issue I can comment on, as I am not him, and so cannot know what he is being told.

quote:
Is the Holy Spirit telling you the same thing ?

no. However, I have stated what I believe, and you have stated what you believe. In many ways they are similar, but in the one issue of speaking in tongues, we are not in agreement. For a few weeks now we have been discussing this issue, also you and St.Cheese, and have reached no conclusion. However, I have been required to read and think a good deal about what I believe, which has been helpful to me. This discussion isn't really going anywhere tho, sadly, and so I'm not sure if it is helpful to continue it on. The bible states to be weary of people who argue about every little point of scripture or belief, and as happened with your conv. with St.Cheese, it turned into a bit of a flaming match. I dont want this to happen, and infact I think it is probably violation of CCN rules (if there are any rules), its certainly against standard netiquette.

Perhaps it is time we left this issue, at least for a time, and just accepted each other as Christain brothers, with slightly differing views on the subject of tongues. You may consider this a VERY IMPORTANT issue, and one that will decide if I go to heaven or not. However, I trust God will show me through my reading of the bible if I am wrong, and will judge me fairly on what I have read, and what is in my heart.

I accept that you are only trying to help me/us, and thankyou. Please accept that I am trying to do the same for you !

God bless you,

MadProf

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This person is clearly presenting their own interpretation ( as is anyone who speaks on the Bible ) and one that opposes the gift of tongues, albeit in a gentle way. My problem is that he says he feels the gift was dying out when Paul wrote his letter, yet Paul says it will die out when we see God face to face.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
I wondered about this myself. i personally think you are mistaken about the tongues thing, but i also think this guy is a bit weird too. i didn't think a gift *could* "die out", however, it is possible that in this day and age it is a less given gift. The point is, that it IS a gift, not a required/always there part of being a believer. i'll go back to my example, what about if someone was born without a voice box, or something, so they could not talk at all? if they became a believer, IYO, would they speak in tongues?

I believe that this is an issue for God, and one He is well able to deal with.

quote:
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Unless that has happened for anyone you know ( which means I am in trouble ;0)
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LOL!


quote:
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I would suggest his interrpetations are suspect as they do not line up with scripture.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
i'm afraid to say i think the same about yours... however, dont take this as being rude or something. you probably think the same about mine.

But of course. You're entitled to your opinion, it's not rude to disagree with someone.

quote:
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Question: How can our church learn to speak in tongues? ( answer: they cannot it is a gift God gives )
He says tongues are languages understood by men. Yet Paul says NO man understands tongues, for we speak directly to God ( 1 Cor 14 ).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
this is kinda complex. when the disciples recieved the Holy Spirit, in acts, they spoke in tongues, and the people could understand them, and they were able to speak in tongues (languages) that they could not speak before. however, some people said they were drunk, so does that seem to say that those people could not understand them? or that they were talking about the disciples that were talking other languages to the ones that they themselves spoke? and what about interperetations of tongues? surely that person understands the tongue that is being spoken?

No, they do not. I don't know exactly why they were understood in Acts 2, although my *opinion* is that, in line with 1 Cor 14, God made this occurance orderly by making the tongues understood. However, 1 Cor 14 says when a person speaks in tongues, no man understands, because they speak directly to God. Interpretation is by inspiration of the Spirit, it means God gives you the words, not that you understand the speaker, 1 Cor 14 again.


quote:
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ignores the most basic problem with their interpretation - if people 'usually' have the Holy Spirit through faith and as a result of faith, how did Phillip know this was not the case this time?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
the Holy Spirit told him so?

Assuming this is the case, why does the Bible not tell us that ? It seems instead to assume we know how to tell. If indeed salvation comes through belief, or baptism in water, then this is a big event - for whatever reason, God failed to keep His Word. Therefore more thorough explanation should be provided assuming this was an unusual event.

quote:
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Is faith different to beliving ? Pauls first question to a group of believers in Acts 19 was 'Have you recieved the Holy Spirit since you believed'.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
yes. if a person believes in Jesus, but does not have faith in Jesus redeeming him from his sins, does that show the difference? and about pauls question, could this be asking if they accepted and asked to be forgiven after believing that Jesus is the son of God? some people, strange as it may seem, do not ask Jesus to forgive them, even if they believe everything.

The real question is, why didn't he ask if they had had faith since believing ? How did he expect them to know if they had the Holy Spirit ? How did they know when they did ?

quote:
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I agree with a lot of what this guy is saying, as far as love is concerned and the order of things in the church. However, he and I clearly disagree on who the church is. People who speak in tongues should not feel more spiritual and look down on those in the church who do not, they should go to a church that preaches the Gospel clearly, so that people who do not speak in tongues do not buy the lie of salvation apart from the Holy Spirit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
what is "salvation", in your definition? being saved, is the literal meaning, and so "being saved from going to hell" would be the meaning i would take from the word. and since the only alternative to hell is heaven, and the only way to heaven (or the kingdom of God, not quite sure if there is a difference) is Jesus, you have to accept Jesus to go to

Salvation means moving into a relationship with God, moving from mortal to immortal.

quote:
heaven. however, at youthgroup here, we had a discussion this night with a group of non-leader people from the church answering questions, and one of them was "what about people who lived before Jesus? And what about people who never get a chance to hear the gospel?", now this is a difficult question, one chap, a fairly liberal chap, in my opinion (from difference answers he gave, and a bit this one), said that basically, its whats in your heart that matters, and that because God loves us, he will not want us to go to hell, and send Jesus, and the bible, etc, to show us the way to heaven, and to be forgiven for our sins because of Jesus sacrifice. So if we accept Jesus' sacrifice, we go to heaven. Now that seems fairly sound to me, but he went on saying that he thought that people who never got a chance to hear about Jesus would be judged by God on what their hearts were like, how they felt, etc. A bit like in the Narnia books how Aslan accepted people thru the shed into the "next narnia" even if they were followers of tash, IF they were people who loved. As Paul said, Love is the most important thing, love for God, and then love for fellow humans. however, Jesus said "whoever is not for me is against me" and so this seems to say that all non-christains are against Jesus, and so will not go to heaven. I guess we wont know until we get there.

I'm not sure of the answer here either, but it doesn't really change the situation for people who have the Bible to read.

quote:
Now, you say "lie of salvation apart from the Holy Spirit.", and, in your view, "having" the holy spirit means you will speak in tongues. I do not believe this is so, and that the holy spirit often lives in us without any dramatic outside effects/show of speaking in tongues. I think that if it was as important a point as you make out, it would be explained in a slightly more comprehensable manner in the bible, or in a way that made it clear, which it is not. You say that it is, and that this verse here, and that that verse there say so, but it can be interperated differently, unlike, say, issues about sexual immorality, or other issues, which are clearly stated.

I'm sorry, but verses like John 3:8, the end of Mark 16, Acts 2, 10 and 19 make it clear as day. The issue is muddied only by the fact that religion corrupted itself as Paul predicted, and so the Gospel is so strange to most people brought up to believe in Jesus that they can't see it there.

quote:
You have given many arguments for believing that when a person recieves the Holy Spirit they speak in tongues, however, the verses you quote can often be interperated differently, and i have read and heard many arguments for not believing this. I dont believe you will ever convice me of this, as through my reading of the bible recently, I have found NO proof of what you say, and always, when I ask God to help me find understanding, I find a verse which says the oposite (at least to me), 1 Cor 13:1, the whole of 1 Cor 12, and many other verses. You interperate these verses differently.

The real question is, if we actually stop and read all of 1 Cor 12-14, who has an interpretation that does not contradict the Bible ? For example, 1 Cor 14:26 says we can all speak in tongues. 1 Cor 12 lists faith among the gifts that most here say are only for some. Unless you can explain these issues to me, your view of 1 Cor 12-14 not supporting all Christians speaking in tongues has problems.

quote:
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I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, I've posted a reply to St Cheez on his thoughts re: 1 Cor 12-14 in a new thread he started.
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well, you heard 'em!


quote:
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I'm curious to know, do you agree with Revelator that the Holy Spirit is telling him not to talk to me?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
that is not an issue I can comment on, as I am not him, and so cannot know what he is being told.

I'm sorry. that was too personal. Do you believe, in the abstract, that the Holy Spirit would tell someone not to discuss the Bible with someone ? Do you believe the Holy Spirit talks to people in such a definite, voices in my head, manner ?

quote:
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Is the Holy Spirit telling you the same thing ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
no. However, I have stated what I believe, and you have stated what you believe. In many ways they are similar, but in the one issue of speaking in tongues, we are not in agreement. For a few weeks now we have been discussing this issue, also you and St.Cheese, and have reached no conclusion. However, I have been required to read and think a good deal about what I believe, which has been helpful to me. This discussion isn't really going anywhere tho, sadly, and so I'm not sure if it is helpful to continue it on. The bible states to be weary of people who argue about every little point of scripture or belief, and as happened with your conv. with St.Cheese, it turned into a bit of a flaming match. I dont want this to happen, and infact I think it is probably violation of CCN rules (if there are any rules), its certainly against standard netiquette.

I agree. I'm pleased to see you're willing to discuss these things in a reasoned manner, it's certainly the way I'd prefer to go.

quote:
Perhaps it is time we left this issue, at least for a time, and just accepted each other as Christain brothers, with slightly differing views on the subject of tongues. You may consider this a VERY IMPORTANT issue, and one that will decide if I go to heaven or not. However, I trust God will show me through my reading of the bible if I am wrong, and will judge me fairly on what I have read, and what is in my heart.

God will judge us all according to the Bible, so this is not really an issue we can agree to disagree on. I'm happy to hear your thoughts from the Bible though and to present my own.

quote:
I accept that you are only trying to help me/us, and thankyou. Please accept that I am trying to do the same for you !

I have no doubt - I'd be keen to hear your views on the verses I have presented, and if you can provide a doctrine that is consistent with them all.