Briant Member Posts: 742 From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada Registered: 01-20-2001 |
Situtation: You are a programmer. You develop products for the public in general, as well as custom software for individuals, groups, businesses, etc. You have a goal of turning your small, part-time software business into a full time big boy software company, producing many (but not exclusively) Christian-based software. One day, someone emails you and asks you to develop a custom screen saver for him. He describes what he wants, you reply with some options and prices, and you agree on the scope and price ("agreement" simply meaning a "Yeah, OK that's cool, I'll do it!" in email - nothing signed, etc.) It is also agreed that rights to resell the product (which you may or may not do), with or without changes, remain with you the developer - it is just that you are initially building it for and selling it to a private individual, based on his ideas. OK, no problem so far. Here's where it gets a little interesting. After the agreement is made, and during the course of back-and-forth emails to discuss details, he mentions he is wanting to give the screen saver to members of his group. "No problem", you say "it's yours to do with as you want." But during friendly conversation, you are curious to know where your screen saver will be used - what kind of group? He is hesitant to reveal much info, but eventually you learn what the group is about, and the purpose of his group is in direct moral opposition to your own beliefs and also not a group you would ever want associated with your company for ethical and business reasons (you don't want anyone to think you or your business supports this group in any way). Now, the screen saver you develop for him will only be given to members of his group (not the general public, who would not be interested in it because the screen saver involves specific names and pictures of the members) so it will not be spread around at all, and the screen saver itself in and of itself is not at all morally questionable - only the group that will be using it is. What do you do???? Brian |
Mack Administrator Posts: 2779 From: Registered: 01-20-2001 |
D: He gets what he wants (plus he can change options at another time) and you can make it public, drawing in people to your site. Explain to him that this will be better for the both of you, seeing as he gets what he wants, and he can change it at anytime (without consulting you) and you can get the publicity you would like to have. If he asks for a pacific screensaver, that relates to the group activities, then I suggest backing down and explaining to him your mortal reasons. |
rowanseymour Member Posts: 284 From: Belfast, Northern Ireland Registered: 02-10-2001 |
I presume when you say the purpose of his group is in direct moral opposition to your own beliefs you're talking about more than just a difference in beliefs. If so, D sounds about right. PS. Mack: I hate to make fun of anybody's english but your last sentence if the funniest thing I've read in a while ------------------ |
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Mack Administrator Posts: 2779 From: Registered: 01-20-2001 |
Flash typing baby :-) very quick typing, glad to see you got a laugh  |
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Briant Member Posts: 742 From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada Registered: 01-20-2001 |
Personally, although D would be ideal, I'm leaning towards B because B is already half done, and I don't really have an interest in making it general enough to sell publically. I may still go with D anyway, but what do you all think of option B? Rowan, yes I'm talking about more than just a difference in beliefs. Brian [This message has been edited by Briant (edited June 23, 2001).] |
Revelator Member Posts: 226 From: Sydney, NSW, Australia Registered: 03-22-2001 |
Good Question Briant. The answer no one can give but you, since you have the most information. Unfortunately there are rarely any black and white issues, and here you are struggling with a grey area: Then there is the third issue: So there is only one thing left to do:
If God wants you to do something, he will persistantly give you impressions if you are willing to receive them. If that weren't true, then what's the use of being a Christian if God can't reliably give you direction in life? Wouldn't be much of a relationship with God. You probably know already deep down what you should do Briant. Revelator! ------------------ |
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Briant Member Posts: 742 From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada Registered: 01-20-2001 |
Thanks for all the great comments. I'll let you know how it turns out. Brian |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
Hey, I know. You agreed to do a job, how about doing it ? It's not like you're selling bombs and you found out they will be used to blow up abortion clinics rather than in a quarry. Your product will make their screens look pretty, an action that I doubt will ever assist in their doing anything that you might possibly disagree with. Don't be such a pussy. Don't think that every little thing you do in your life needs to be agonised over. Do the job you agreed to do, instead of flying off the handle over something irrational and bringing disrepute to yourself and your religion. Christian |
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Briant Member Posts: 742 From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada Registered: 01-20-2001 |
> Hey, I know. You agreed to do a job, how about doing it ?.....Don't be such a pussy. Actually, that's what is happening. I'm not a pussy or flying off the handle, but thanks for that. I just needed a bit to think it through, like you should have done before making that post. Brian |
Krylar Administrator Posts: 502 From: MD, USA Registered: 03-05-2001 |
Watch the language and the tone please. This type of personal attack is unwarranted and will not be tolerated here. The issue that arises is that Brian respects God's will more than the will of man. Man looks at a deal and says "you agreed to this...now do it!". Typically, though, man doesn't always devulge the details of the deal until after the agreement, as was the case here. If Brian believes that this deal goes against what God's will is, then Brian is justified in turning from the deal. I'd rather face man's wrath than God's wrath anyday. Now you may think that stupid, and I understand that as I once too thought it was stupid. But I no longer think that because I have spent the better part of my life studying the various religions, belief systems, etc. and there is nothing out there that remotely makes sense to me except for Christianity. So what, exactly, has you so angry that you would respond this way? I'm not trying to press buttons here...I'm sincerely asking since I used to be this angry at Christ/Christians/Christianity also. Mine was due to my upbringing in a school that was defined as religious, but was more based it being the "right" religion. Since I wasn't their religion I was constantly told how I was going to hell...and this from teachers! Plus, my extended family said I was going to hell for going to that school because it wasn't *our* religion. So, I quickly got pissed at the whole thing and still find "religion" to be very flawed in many respects. It wasn't until I matured a bit that I realized that those people were just idiots who were more interested in themselves than in Christ. I no longer blame them, but rather thank them as they made me avoid that "I'm better than you" idiocy. So, I studied various religions that were non-Christian, and I then studied the various Christian religions. After literally years of study I do believe that Jesus is the son of God and I do believe that He died for our sins. I do not subscribe to any particular Christian denomination, but I am a Christian. So, that's me...what's your story? -Krylar ------------------ |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
Krylar: Jesus said to render to man that which is mans. Paul said to be all things to all men, to offend no-one except for the Gospels sake. I believe Paul also said let your yes be yes, and your no, no ( yes, in context of making an oath, but I believe it would be hard for you to argue that keeping your word is against the Bible ). It seems that common sense prevailed in the original poster and he kept his word. Like I said, it's not like his product would be used for immoral purposes. The Bible also says that while we are to keep clear of fornicators, it does not mean the fornicators of this world, because how do you do that ? It seems that God does not mind if we do business or have dealings with people who do not reflect our beliefs. As to my attitude - I am just concerned to find that people are going through life thinking that being a Christian means being scared of every decision they have to make, seeking Gods help in deciding if they will go to hell if they do a job they accepted in not far from feeling afraid they might die eternally if they buy margarine instead of butter. Oh, and Christianity is about an experience with God, not the result of study. If it was about our thoughts and perceptions then Jesus would have gone to the learned people of the day. The Bible is also clear that you NEED to be part of a church to walk in the Spirit. People who do not sit under any teaching but call themselves Christians are 'tossed on every wind of doctrine', 'having itching ears' and 'doubleminded, unstable in all their ways'. By the way, since when is pussy a 'language' issue, in the context I used it ? Is wimp acceptable ?
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Briant Member Posts: 742 From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada Registered: 01-20-2001 |
Matt 5:5,9 "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God." Gal 5:22-23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." Eph 4:2-3 "With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; [3] Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace." Col 3:12 "Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;" 2 Tim 2:24-25 "And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, [25] In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves;" James 3:17 "But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy." Selah. |
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Krylar Administrator Posts: 502 From: MD, USA Registered: 03-05-2001 |
I can see where you could find people that are wimpy, but I don't think that's the case here. In my job I have to be very cutthroat at times, including crushing people's dreams because their games absolutely suck and they don't know it. So I'm certainly no pushover. But I'm also not rude and in their face about it. So where I can certainly agree that there *are* a number of folks out that, Christian and not, that are pushovers, totally scared about everything, etc...I also know that there are many judgmental people out there that have no tact and just say what flies out of their heads regardless of how it may affect others. If you are a Christian, are you not trying to bring others to Christ? Is this not something that Christ wants of you? And do you really think that by bashing and flaming people you can accomplish this? As for study, you're dead wrong. If you don't know the Word of God, how can you know who God is? How do you have a relationship with God without knowing Him? And how can you know Him without studying His Word? -Krylar ------------------ |
Imsold4christ Member Posts: 305 From: Gresham, OR, US Registered: 01-20-2001 |
quote: Just a little thing I'd like to point out, not everyone who recieves the Holy Spirit speaks in tongues. In 1st Corinthians 14:5 Paul says "I wish you all had the gift of speaking in tongues..." In this particular passage Paul is talking about the different gifts the Holy Spirit gives you. Not everyone gets the same gift. Some get prophesy, some get the gift of tongues, some get other stuff. Read 1st Corinthians chapter 14. It's great stuff.
quote: Hey, I know this one. Yes, you can know God without the Bible. I mean, just look at Job in the Old Testament, did he have a Bible? Did Abraham have a Bible? They certainly knew God. Though they didn't learn about Him from the Bible, they learned from experience. And what about those people today, in the present time, that have no access to a Bible? God makes other ways to know Him besides the Bible But don't get me wrong, the Bible is a GREAT way to learn all about God. I'm just saying that it can be done without a Bible. If you have access to a Bible, it's highly reccomended that you do rely on it, rather than having learn the hard way, through experience. I'm sure you all know that though. †Caleb† |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
Briant: naturally I agree with all this. Put it in context with the Jesus who *beat* the money changers with whips and drove them out of the temple. I don't feel guilty for being blunt. Krylar: >>If you are a Christian, are you not trying to bring others to Christ? Is this not something that Christ wants of you? And do you really think that by bashing and flaming people you can accomplish this? Ah.. you're saying that I can 'bring people to Christ' by keeping my opinions to myself ? Also, are you saying that all the people quoting scripture at me now need to be brought to Christ ? You may be right, the question is do they know it ? >>As for study, you're dead wrong. If you don't know the Word of God, how can you know who God is? How do you have a relationship with God without knowing Him? And how can you know Him without studying His Word? This is 1/2 the picture. John 4 says to worship in Spirit & in truth. You need the Spirit first, THEN you can worry about the truth. I never said don't read the Bible, I said it's not about head knowledge. If you disagree, read James. Imsold4Christ: I'm sorry you've not read 1 Cor 14. If you had, you'd know that the half verse you quoted out of all context does not remotely indicate what you want it to. In fact 14:28 says that all ARE able to speak in tongues/interpret/etc. Verse 31 says all can prophesy. If indeed you are right and 1 Cor 12 lists gifts that only some Christians have, how many do you know without faith ? Without knowledge ? Without wisdom. Doesn't work, does it ? How about Acts 8 - a group of baptised believers who have faith, healing & miracles in their midst are told they do not have the Holy Spirit. How do you propose this is possible, and how do you propose they were able to tell ? 'The manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man, to profit withall'. I agree with your comments re: not NEEDING a Bible, but reading it as we have access to it. |
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Briant Member Posts: 742 From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada Registered: 01-20-2001 |
quote: I see absolutely no evidence that you agree with all this. "Blunt" is not the word that describes your attitude here, and Jesus clearing out the money changers is not an excuse for dismissing all the other passages that talk of meekness and gentleness, nor for generally being bitter, rude and arrogant. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh, and you have thus revealed to us what is in your heart. James 3:11-14 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? [12] Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. [13] Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. [14] But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. Sometimes, if everyone and everything bothers you, the problem lies with you and not everyone else. Decide: will you send forth bitter water or sweet? |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
Briant, you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to not care. My attitude is that if you people remotely cared about converting people you wouldn't judge me on what I say to a bunch of insular 'christian' folk who live in their little bubble of Christian games, Christian music and Christian washing detergent, you'd be too busy discussing programming on established sites for the purpose ( and looking for opportunities to tell the HUNDREDS of non-Christian folks you meet there about your beliefs ) and discussing Christianity on a site dedicated to Christianity. If my thinking that you should be out spreading the Word instead of discussing it like a bunch of would be revolutionaries that never actually start a revolution is to you 'being bitter, rude and arrogant', then that's your problem. Truth is, I have been active on Christian newsgroups before and I know there is no point in taking the time to discuss the Bible with people already holding one - they have their own ideas and will not move from them. So I don't bother beating around the bush, on the odd chance I discuss Christianity on the web at all I say what I think, direct and to the point. That gives me a slightly larger slim chance that someone will actually consider what I have to say. |
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Briant Member Posts: 742 From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada Registered: 01-20-2001 |
Give us a break. You know absolutely nothing about what any of us do, what other programming sites or forums we're involved in, how much or where we share our faith, what we do in our spare time, where we work, or anything. You simply *assume* we all spend our lives inside some christiancoders.com bubble, and then come in here and start insulting and judging everyone based on your own faulty conclusions. What do you base your irrational assumption and unjustified condemnation upon? No need to answer, I doubt I'll waste any more time reading or responding to you anyway. |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
Briant: you're right, and yet you all feel secure in similarly judging me. There's a log in your eye, brother... |
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rowanseymour Member Posts: 284 From: Belfast, Northern Ireland Registered: 02-10-2001 |
MeanManInOz, your arrogance is astounding. I often shy from posting on religious topics because I know my knowledge of the scriptures isn't too hot (call me a wimp if you like), but what I do know of the bible is that Jesus tells us to love our neighbour and be humble in our approach to God. Nothing of what you have typed seems to me to contain any love or humility.
quote:I have never played a christian game or listened to christian music. I like Quake III and demoscene electronica.
quote:I am not here to start a revolution, just to learn and make friends. Which I have done.
quote: I do not suppose to understand all of the bible (I don't believe anyone should) and have thoroughly enjoyed all the previous intelligent discussions on the scriptures. -Rowan ------------------ [This message has been edited by rowanseymour (edited June 28, 2001).] |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
Rowan - thanks for your comments. I didn't set out to discuss anything apart from pointing out the insular nature of this place and ask why it is that Christians need to have their own place to talk about programming, and writing software for the Christian market - I think the analogy of Jesus driving out the merchants from the temple is an apt one. Yes, Jesus said to love your neighbour. He didn't say to be a wimp. Love does not mean being insipid and it does not disallow me from having an opinion. I guess if you don't really read the Bible you're unlikely to argue about what it says, so my comment about talking to people holding a Bible does not apply to you. Fact is, I wasn't looking to make a lifetime commitment to this site, and my experience has proven there is no point trying to discuss the Bible in a serious manner on-line. If you've made some friends here, that is great. Everyone needs to have friends and it's nice to be part of an online community. I just find it astounding that people are attacking me the way that they are, and acting as if talking amongst themselves via a web site is an astounding act of faith and proof of the veracity of their Christian belief. |
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rowanseymour Member Posts: 284 From: Belfast, Northern Ireland Registered: 02-10-2001 |
Believe it or not I have found your critisms quite interesting, and I probably speak for others when I say it's not your opinions that are causing problems, but your atitude to other christians and lack of respect for THEIR beliefs. Remember, if your going to suggest others take a look at the logs in their eyes, check your own first I don't mind hearing more of your opinions provided you appreciate that that is what they are. -Rowan ------------------ |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
A fair cop. The problem I have is this - if you believe there actually IS a God, then you have to be prepared for the possibility that *He* gets to have an opinion. I respect your right to have a belief - but prove to me that it is true. If it is, and it differs from my position, then I have a problem. Otherwise, you do. There's no two ways about it. |
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MadProf Member Posts: 181 From: Larnaka, Cyprus Registered: 01-24-2001 |
quote: well, of course God has an opinion! An opinion is a way of looking at a certain subject/topic... so every person has an opinion. The term person often gets misunderstood to mean "human", but it doesn't, imho. surely it means "anything that can think and reason, and have a personality". My cats are "persons", they think and reason I am unfair when i dont give them my food. Thats their opinion. therefore, in this way of talking about the term "person", God is a person too, and so has an opinion. However, what is it you are asking about God having an opinion about? Please specify the issue.
quote: A lot of what I belive I cannot prove. This is called trust. I trust God that when I die I will not live out the rest of eternity in hell. I dont know this, I cannot prove this.
quote: look, you are being very pushy here. CCN is a place a bunch of similar people can come and talk, help each other, and be friends. we are all, as far as i know, christian, in the sense that we all belive in Jesus. So we can help each other and discuss things in our beliefs. You came here and started being very rude to people... some people were rude back, i wont deny it. you will probably find this message rude. you say that we should prove our beliefs to you, or else we are wrong. what about yourself. can you prove your beliefs to us? it is very arrogant to say that you are the one who is right unless proved wrong, and that everyone else in the world is wrong unless proved right. The bible says a lot of things. Paul wrote a lot of messages to the churches of his time, and to us, in the future, which say a lot of helpful things to us. What it comes down to is this, love is the most important thing we can do. To love God is to worship him, read our bibles, or whatever it is we do for him. to follow Jesus' instructions, etc. To love other people is after that, and the greatest act of love we can do for another person is to bring them to understand Gods love. It doesnt sound much as if you love other people. Perhaps I just dont understand you. MadProf |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
MadProf, there are a lot of things we cannot prove, but if people want to tell me I am wrong, THEN they have a responsibility to use the Bible to prove it. I believe I have done a reasonable job in defending my statements, and where they relate to Christianity, doing so from the Bible. If you feel otherwise, fine, but I doubt you can deny I have given it the old college try. |
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Krylar Administrator Posts: 502 From: MD, USA Registered: 03-05-2001 |
Heya, Let me set the record straight on what this site was about from the get-go. It was never intended to compete with Flipcode, GameDev, etc. (I visit GameDev, Flipcode, and various other sites daily. I love those sites and I totally agree that they have tons of really cool articles and resources.) It was always intended as a place where folks could get together and talk about issues as they relate to various levels of Christianity and development. The games avenue was a part of it, but it wasn't the only part. It's since moved that direction because that's the way the community went. The site started because I saw a person one day on GameDev asking for programming advice on a Christian game he was working on. He got responses like "Why don't you just pray for help?" and various smacks like that. I got to emailing with the guy because I had faced similar issues (though face-to-face) in the industry, so we were just kinda supporting each other. I had the idea that maybe other Christians out there might like having a platform to talk about Christ, their developments, and so on...and this site was born. As for our development articles, I simply enjoy writing tutorials while I learn...it helps me learn. I chose BlitzBasic because I like it; it's fast, powerful, and has a very good community. I also code in C and Assembler and have played with DirectX, but I'm not really deep into DX (though I want to get there as soon as I can find the time). This site houses the most Blitz tutorials on the net and they average roughly 150 reads per day with tons of thanks and comments from the readers. Not everyone out there knows how to code games (or code at all), so these articles really help these folks. Since the first Blitz article (written about 8 months ago) there have been nearly 13,000 reads...so they're helping someone and I think that's cool. What's more cool is that, albeit a small percantage, some of these folks have emailed to say that the Christian articles and resources on this site have made them think about their spirituality more seriously. So a seed has been planted in at least *some* of these folks. -Krylar ------------------ |
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MadProf Member Posts: 181 From: Larnaka, Cyprus Registered: 01-24-2001 |
MMIO: what DO you actually belive???? this is what i was trying to ask. and how can you know that THIS group of christians online is the same as others? CCN is vastly different from any other groups i have met online. partly as everyone here tends to be a lot more computerly advanced than other people, being coders and all, and also, most people are not "a bunch of insular 'christian' folk" as you so refered to (some of) us. Everyone here HAS questioned their beliefs, and thought a lot about them. Sometimes people became believers thru reading the bible, others thru miricles, for each one of us, God shows himself to us in different ways. Please dont say things in such an insulting way, and try to use some tact, and ASK people to explain what they believe, rather than dismissing them as you have. i dont mean to be rude, but you have been very tactless. sorry. The CCN community has been a place I have been able to ask questions to people who think similarly to me, who are fairly sensible, and have helped me a lot with thinking thru some problems and questions in my life. the CCN webpage helps people to think about God, etc, krylars message says about that. If you want to be so **** pushy, go and do so on some other community. some of us are not so good at jumping into a pub, going up to a bunch of drug dealing pimps and saying "hey, do you know Jesus?", some people are. a lot of us are better at "presence evangelism", in other words, being there, and helping, showing Gods love and kindness, and GENTLY guiding people. dont critisise us for the way we are. ask questions about WHY we do things some ways, if you want, but stop the direct attacks, please. MadProf (gotta run) I would like to write more, but dont have time. [This message has been edited by MadProf (edited June 29, 2001).] |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
Krylar: Blitz Basic ruled when I wrote games with it using the Amiga in 1992. If you like it, fine. I hope you don't expect to write anything commercially with it though. If you're doing it for fun, then all that matters is that you have fun. MadProf: My beliefs concerning the Bible are getting a good airing in another thread ( I forget which one, but I've only posted to about four, now they are not the top ones I'll have a heck of a time finding them to continue myself ). I haven't dismissed what people believe, I am dismissive of the idea of this site in so far as it's full of people who are 'Christians' but I am asked why I didn't come in quietly witnessing to people. I'm not suggesting getting on a soap box at the pub ( I don't go to pubs myself ( I don't drink, of course ), but I assure you not everyone who does is a drug dealing pimp ) but I *am* advocating getting out into the big bad world and meeting/talking to people. |
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Mack Administrator Posts: 2779 From: Registered: 01-20-2001 |
*DiNg!* *DiNg!* *DiNg!* .....and now for a word from our sponcers! [This message has been edited by Mack (edited June 29, 2001).] |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
I'm a heavy metal fan myself, but can I just ask - on what level is 'Christian death metal' not an onxymoron ? I personally find bands with names like Morification and album covers detailing the crucifixion ( my recollection goes back to the early 1990's ) to be in poor taste and just plain weird. Of course, I think death metal sucks in any case ( no offense, you're entitled to your music tastes ) and I guess some people would say the same about Christian blues. I like Rez/Glenn Kaiser predominantly because the music is good, I saw Rez live and they ruled. I would not defend them on a Christian level though, they are a good band who happen to sing about Jesus. I like AC/DC just as much, and neither of them affect my life through what they choose to sing about. |
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Imsold4christ Member Posts: 305 From: Gresham, OR, US Registered: 01-20-2001 |
quote: Okay... The rest of my scripture quotes for this post will be from the NIV since you're so against other translations. No big deal, I can use NIV too to prove my point. Enjoy the Bible study! I spent a long time on this response. I have too read 1st Cor. 14! First of all, just because I'm quoting half a verse doesn't necessarily mean it's out of context. I was just isolating that one part to make the meaning more obvious. If you read the whole verse it still says the same thing. Here's 1st Corinthians 14:5 again, this time with the whole verse and using NIV. "I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified." Paul is saying this as if not everyone could speak in tongues. I just don't understand how you don't see that. Is there something I'm missing here?
quote: No, 1st Corinthians 14:28 doesn't say that at all. It says: "If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God." Ironically, this verse helps to prove my point. Note that it says "if there is no interpreter" as if it's possible that not everyone in the church (i.e. those with the Holy Spirit) could interpret the gift of tongues. As for verse 31, I can see how it could be easily misinterpreted: "For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged." If I went up to a group of people and said "Hi everyone, you're looking good today," would I be speaking about just that group, or about all humans on the entire Earth? It's the same way with this verse. Paul is speaking to all those who prophesy. You may say "well, that's your interpretation." Yes, that's all it would be if it were not for 1st Corinthians 14:1... "Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy." Notice that it treats the gift of prophecy as separate from other spiritual gifts. Not all who have the Holy Spirit in them get the gift of prophesy initially.
quote: Does it necessarily say that those with the Holy Spirit are limited to just one gift?
quote: Yes, they had other people around them (the apostles) who had faith and were performing healing & miracles, but they themselves did not have those things, because as it says, they did not have the Holy Spirit. By the way, there is a difference between the "faith that moves mountains" and the "Christian faith." The faith that comes from the Holy Spirit is the kind of faith that moves mountains.
quote: What verse is that?
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
I'm not sure how you do the quote thing, so I've just quoted your post and will respond throughout. quote: Okay... The rest of my scripture quotes for this post will be from the NIV since you're so against other translations. No big deal, I can use NIV too to prove my point. Enjoy the Bible study! I spent a long time on this response. I'm sorry if you misunderstood me - you can use the NRSV or whatever, just don't use a Good News or similar, which is not a translation at all. I prefer the NKJV, but it's not that big an issue, so long as it's a *translation*. I have too read 1st Cor. 14! First of all, just because I'm quoting half a verse doesn't necessarily mean it's out of context. I was just isolating that one part to make the meaning more obvious. If you read the whole verse it still says the same thing. Here's 1st Corinthians 14:5 again, this time with the whole verse and using NIV. "I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified." Paul is saying this as if not everyone could speak in tongues. I just don't understand how you don't see that. Is there something I'm missing here? 1/ Paul is talking about their all using the gift of tongues in a meeting. I apologise for getting the verse wrong, but surely if you read all of chapter 14, you'd have noticed this and realised it was what I meant ? 14:26 What should you do then, brothers and sisters?1 When you come together, each one has a song, has a lesson, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all these things be done for the strengthening of the church 2/ He expressly forbids them to all speak in tongues at once, why would he say this unless they could ( and in fact where )? 14:23 So if the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and unbelievers or uninformed people enter, won't they say that you are crazy? 3/ He says that he 'thanks God He speaks in tongues more than all in Corinth'. Now, if you know any Christians ( people who can speak in tongues ), they will tell you they use this gift as rarely or often as they choose. Paul cannot be thanking God he uses the gift more often than those in Corinth because a/ He isn't there to know how often they use it, except that he obviously has heard they do it all at once in meetings, and b/ it is up to Paul how often he speaks in tongues. The verse is saying he is more glad of the gift than anyone in Corinth is. They are all glad of the gift because they all have it. quote: No, 1st Corinthians 14:28 doesn't say that at all. It says: "If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God." Ironically, this verse helps to prove my point. Note that it says "if there is no interpreter" as if it's possible that not everyone in the church (i.e. those with the Holy Spirit) could interpret the gift of tongues. Verse 26 says they all CAN. The point is that it's obvious they can all speak in tongues, because they are Christians. They must seek to use the gifts of interpretation and prophecy. Until that has happened, the gift of tongues is not to be used in the church. But again, at the end Paul tells them to seek these gifts, implying they can have them. As for verse 31, I can see how it could be easily misinterpreted: "For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged." Yes, it's pretty plain, isn't it ? How on earth can it mean anything else ? If I went up to a group of people and said "Hi everyone, you're looking good today," would I be speaking about just that group, or about all humans on the entire Earth? It's the same way with this verse. Paul is speaking to all those who prophesy. You may say "well, that's your interpretation." Yes, that's all it would be if it were not for 1st Corinthians 14:1... I see - so Paul writes a letter to all in Corinth and when he states 'you can all prophecy', he's only talking to the people who can prophecy ? Let's see, next time I'm preaching I'll say 'You can all program C++' and see if it's obvious to all present that I am only talking to the people who can program, OK ? "Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy." Notice that it treats the gift of prophecy as separate from other spiritual gifts. Not all who have the Holy Spirit in them get the gift of prophesy initially. No, because the manifestation of the Spirit is tongues. The other gifts must be sought. For example, James says to ask for wisdom if you feel you lack it. quote: Does it necessarily say that those with the Holy Spirit are limited to just one gift? If there's a limit then there is a limit. If not all have tongues from 1 Cor 12, why do all have faith ? Please use the Bible to support your answer.
Yes, they had other people around them (the apostles) who had faith and were performing healing & miracles, but they themselves did not have those things, because as it says, they did not have the Holy Spirit. By the way, there is a difference between the "faith that moves mountains" and the "Christian faith." The faith that comes from the Holy Spirit is the kind of faith that moves mountains. Faith is faith. They had been baptised and seen miracles, but they had no faith ? Give me a break. Anyhow, my question is how did they know these people didn't have the Holy Spirit ? How do YOU know if someone has the Holy Spirit ? Please use the Bible to support your answer. Keep in mind that Simon the Sorceror was a man used to playing tricks on people, but he saw something that he knew was real - it was more than people having a warm feeling in their hearts, and in any case these people already had faith because otherwise they would not have submitted to baptism.
What verse is that? 1 Cor 12:7 To each person the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the benefit of all. I'd love to hear your views on 1 Cor 12:3 as well. |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
As an aside, I think that it's telling that the current poll (Do you struggle with your spiritual life ) has 19 saying yes, and 3 saying no, one of which is me, and one is a guy here who is not a Christian. The Bible does not indicate that you should be answering yes to such a question - there is clearly a problem here. |
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Mack Administrator Posts: 2779 From: Registered: 01-20-2001 |
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Mack Administrator Posts: 2779 From: Registered: 01-20-2001 |
quote: No one can be perfect, we all have struggles in areas of our lives that we are or are fighting hard to overcome. |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
Regarding the first comment - how does one play death metal in a Christian way ? I guess I will never get it, but as I said, I'm willing to concur that it doesn't help that I hate it. Does this mean you listen to only Christian music ? Just curious ? As to your comment re: struggle: Come to me all you who are heavy laden, and I will give you rest: Jesus. I'm not saying that I never have issues in my life, but fair dinkum - the whole POINT of Christianity is that no matter what else is going on I know God is in my life and that I can trust Him to pull me through. If that's not the case, why bother at all ? |
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Mack Administrator Posts: 2779 From: Registered: 01-20-2001 |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
Does this mean you think Christian death metal is God approved, but secular music isn't ? Mortification is better than Chuck Berry ? |
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Mack Administrator Posts: 2779 From: Registered: 01-20-2001 |
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. I am a person. I can understand and reason a lot more complexly than my cats can, and so my opinion is that they dont deserve/need my food.