(1) Do you believe baptism should be as a young child/baby, or as an adult/child old enough to understand themselves?

Jesus was baptised when he was an adult and I think we should follow his example. (if only all his examples were as easy to follow )

(2) Do you belive baptism is wholly symbolic?

If you believe in your vows then no.

(3) If you belive it symbolic, what do you belive it is symbolic of?

Telling God you want him to be in your life.

(4) Do you belive you must be baptized to be a "saved"?

No. Jesus stated that he would know those who lived his teaching even if they had not recognised him . Behaviour counts for more than belief (Quote from "Jesus The Teacher Within" by Laurence Freeman.)

PS my wife and I recently renewed our baptism vows after coming back to God after many years away, as a way of telling God that wanted him to be part of our lives. It was a very special night for everyone there that was being confirmed or baptised.

All the best,

Monkeyx

I have not been confirmed in the Anglican church in the UK, partly as i have only been old enough, understood, etc, in the time we've been in cyp, and have never had a chance.

One of my friends at church (southen baptist) was baptized last sunday, and her dad gave a talk to the kids/teens about what he believes etc, and that sparked off a lot of thinking for me, and i've been studying the bible, a few english translations, and the "Pocket Interlinear New Testament", which is the NT Greek, and also has english translation directly below each word (my greek isnt that good yet!). Anyway, what he said makes a lot of sense, and i'm wondering if God is telling me to be baptized again, at an age where I understand, and can repent, and accept him.

in Mark 1:4-5 it says:

eyento Iwannes baotizwn en te eremw, kai kerusswn baptisma metanoias eis aphesin amartiwn. (transliterated, w=omega, "oh" or "oo" sound)

which means:

came John baptizing in the desert, and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

to me this says that baptism is a way of repenting, or publicly saying this. I dont know if this is correct. I've been praying a lot about this, and I'm asking many many peoples opinions on this topic.

Thanks,

MadProf

I think as an adult. However, I am not as opposed to baby baptism as most in my denomination, because it is really not that much different than the "Baby dedications" we have in our own church. I do not believe infant baptism has any spiritual significance other than solidifying the parents' resolve to raise their child to come to Christ later in life. In other words, I am not opposed to infant baptism, but if the parents are doing it to guarantee salvation for their child, they are doing it for the wrong reason.

> (2) Do you belive baptism is wholly symbolic?

Generally yes, but I believe it has some practical value as well in the sense of a public witness and the personal spiritual benefit.

> (3) If you belive it symbolic, what do you belive it is symbolic of?

Our spiritual death of the old man and the resurrection of the new man, also of the future physical death and physical resurrection.

> (4) Do you belive you must be baptized to be a "saved"?

Not at all, but at the same time I do not understand those who are saved who outright refuse to be baptized.

Brian

1) Basptism is a sign of repentance and belief in christ. That normally wouldn't happen until a kid grows up a bit, but you just never know. It woulnt happen when you are a little baby that is for sure. My wife was baptised in water when she was 7, and receive the holy spirit at 6, so that is pretty darn young. Matthew 3:6 said that they got baptised after they confessed their sins.

2) Pretty much. Without the spirtual and symbolism side of things, it is just jumping in a bathtub, or the ocean, and wetting you toes and hair. It is just one of those things god tells us to do over and over again, so we go do it willingly. It probably looks a bit silly, but hey, who cares. It is a symbol of forgiveness of sins as well (Acts 2:38, 22:16)

3) It is symbolic of Christs death and resurrection, and death to sin, and life in christ. (Romans 6:4) Its got some other up shots. Unity (Galatians 3:27-28) is a big one.

4) Now this is a tricky one. Short answer: I don't know. I really don't. Wish I did, it would make my life a zillion times easier, but I don't, and god ain't telling me. This single issue almost tore my marriage a couple of months before it happened, and almost destroyed me.

My general thoughts are:
You can be saved without being baptised (The infamous John 3:16, and a number of others)

If you are saved, and a beleiver then you willingly obey god.

The word (ie God) tells us to be baptised, and illustrates many people getting baptised. So being dutiful children, we should go get baptised. So many times when the bible describes some down to earth preaching from the aposteles, those who beleives were baptised without delat.

So my personal quandry was, and still is, how can you be a true beleiver, knowing that baptism is there, and still not get baptised, and stil be a beleiver? AArggghh!! My head hurts.

Bless ya all,
Phil

[This message has been edited by Phillip Martin (edited June 14, 2001).]

The only way to answer your questions is to look to see what the Bible says.

1)In every instance of baptism in the New Testament, it is followed by repentance and belief in Jesus as their source of hope. (John's baptism was only of repentance but looking forward to Jesus' mission on this earth)

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Therefore how can we baptize babies when they have no understanding of repentance and salvation?

2,3)Baptism is symbolic of being born again. Like Jesus we are buried, (submerged in water) while under water we are symbolically dead (you can't breath under water) and then we are raised to a new life. (when you come up above the water).

Here it is in the Bible

Romans 6:3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.

Note - The greek word for baptize is "baptizo", which means to dip under. Baptism never ever meant to have water sprinkled. That was introduced into the church centuries later.

4) The Bible is clear that we must be baptized to be saved:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

That is why in the great commission given by Jesus we are to have people baptised in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. (Matthew 28:19,20)

For those people who believe in Jesus but never had a chance to get baptized, Jesus' own baptism covers for them. (Such as the thief on the cross)

Matthew 3:15 Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.

It is Jesus righteousness that covers for those who are unable to be baptised, so they don't miss out.

Well, that's how I see it in the Bible. I was baptised in my church when I was 15 years old, and to me it was a very important part of my walk with God.

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

[This message has been edited by Revelator (edited June 14, 2001).]

Let me pose the question another way.

If Jesus were to come back right now, would you know, without a doubt, that you would be returning with him to Heaven?

<Sounds like another poll Krylar, although you had a similar one already.>

Tim

If Jesus says I am saved, and I try to live as close to his will as possible, I know that I am saved.

Revelator!

quote:

---

If Jesus says I am saved, and I try to live as close to his will as possible, I know that I am saved.

---

I believe that truly accepting Christ as your personal savior is what causes salvation. Granted, a side effect of that acceptance is the desire to transform your life, but I don't believe it's a pre-requisit to salvation to live as close to His will as possible.

I heard a preacher say it really well once...went something like:

"We didn't behave our way into salvation, we can't disbehave our way out."

I think his point was that it's not by works that we are saved, nor by being righteous, nor by trying our best to be righteous, but simply by accepting that Jesus died for our sins and raised Himself from the dead, and by accepting that He is the ONLY way to the Father.

Does this mean that it's cool for people to say "Okay, I accept it..." and then go out and slaughter people and steal and such...I would argue that the person hasn't really accepted it. However, it does mean that if you make mistakes, which you will, those mistakes are already paid for by the blood of Christ. So acceptance of that, means that your past, present, and future sins are covered. Yes, you should still repent them and yes, you should still feel guilt over them and do your best to stop sinning...but no matter how hard you try not to sin, you'll never be good enough to get to the Father without Christ.

Anyways, that's my two cents Writing this in a hurry, so hopefully I didn't type a snafu in there somewhere.

God bless!

-Krylar

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Revelator:
The Bible is clear that we must be baptized to be saved:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

---

I had to answer this one. Revelator, I think you may have taken that verse out of context. Here, I found this in a commentary on this particular verse...

“Of water and the Spirit” could refer to (1) the contrast between physical birth (water) and spiritual birth (Spirit), or (2) being regenerated by the Spirit and signifying that rebirth by Christian baptism. The water may also represent the cleansing action of God’s Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5). Nicodemus undoubtedly would have been familiar with God’s promise in Ezekiel 36:25, 26. Jesus was explaining the importance of a spiritual rebirth, saying that people don’t enter the Kingdom by living a better life, but by being spiritually reborn.

Okay, I've given you the alternative viewpoint, now let me back it up with scripture. In 1st Corinthians 1:17 Paul says "For Christ didn't send me to baptize, but to preach the Good News ..."

So what he's saying is that baptism is less important than hearing the Good News (also known as the gospel). If you'll read the verses around this you'll see that Paul is talking about how he was actually glad that he didn't baptize hardly anyone in Corinth. If baptism (when available) was necisary for salvation, then Paul would be doing it whenever he could. But he didn't. Go ahead, take a look at 1st Corinthians 1:10-17 for youself. I'm not going to post it here because this thread is already too long. Go read it yourself in whatever translation you want.

Hope I didn't confuse anyone!
†Caleb†

Krylar - The issue that you are discussing is one that will never be resolved. You are right in that it is only God who saves us and that nothing we can do will get us to heaven.

However, as you rightly pointed out, if a person's life is contrary to Christ, then perhaps they have not really accepted Jesus.

If you have accepted Jesus and then willingly and knowingly do your own thing in life - then I suggest you need to figure out if you want to be a christian. Because being a Christian means being a follower of Christ's teachings.

Being a Christian means that Jesus is the Lord in your life and that your relationship with Him is the most important thing in the world.

I think you agree with me on this one Krylar.

Caleb - will get back on your point later (got to go to church at the moment).

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

Regarding John 3:3 - must be born of water and the spirit - I agree that you cannot use that text in isolation to say that you must be baptised to be saved.

But
When you look at all the other references to Baptism in the New Testament, it is obviously important in the process of Salvation.

Matthew 28:19 - Jesus commands us to do it.

Acts 2:37,38 - Thousands were convicted by Peter's first sermon and they ask what they can be do to be saved. Peter replies that they should repent and be baptised.

Acts 9:18 - Apostle Paul was baptised when he accepted Christ

Acts 10:47,48 - Peter baptises the first Non Jew belivers.

Gal 3:27 "for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."

And there are many more texts...

Regarding

quote:

---

In 1st Corinthians 1:17 Paul says "For Christ didn't send me to baptize, but to preach the Good News ..."
If you'll read the verses around this you'll see that Paul is talking about how he was actually glad that he didn't baptize hardly anyone in Corinth. If baptism (when available) was necisary for salvation, then Paul would be doing it whenever he could. But he didn't. Go ahead, take a look at 1st Corinthians 1:10-17 for youself.

---

We do need to look at the passage in context.

The reason why Paul says he is glad he did not baptise many people in the church there, is because of the quarrels in the church where members were aligning themselves with different leaders. Paul didn't want to be part of this, and was glad that he did not baptise many in that church so that they could say that Paul was their leader.

These few verses will give the context:

12 What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas "; still another, "I follow Christ."
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?
14 I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,
15 so no one can say that you were baptized into my name.

That is why he is glad he did not baptise many people in that church. So that they wouldn't be inclined to follow him.
Paul maybe did not do much baptism, because he had other helpers to do it for him. In these following texts he is clearly present at these baptisms, though the Bible doesn't say who actually did the baptising (because it clearly isn't important)- Acts 16:15, 16:33, 18:8, 19:5.

My belief is that if the Bible says it, I need to do it. Not so that I am earning my way to heaven, but because Jesus had a reason for it. Having been baptised myself in church, I have made that public declaration of my love for Jesus. I have symbolically been washed of my sins and raised to a new life. I did it because Jesus asked me to in the Bible, and I believe that my relationship with Jesus is deeper because of my public committment to him in Baptism. I am glad that I did it.

Anyway, as I said, I love these discussions, because it makes me think more about what I believe and my love for my God.

Thanks
Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

I'd say that truly accepting Christ makes one WANT to follow the path of rightousness, but I don't believe that being righteous is possible...at least not in this life. If it was possible for us to do we wouldn't have needed Christ.

I don't think we are in disagreement, it's just a tough thing to put into words Maybe this: "Faith is the foundation of works, not works the foundation of faith. By faith we are saved, not by works, but works are a natural progression of faith."

-Krylar

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I'll "hear, hear" what Revelator said. Paul hadn't baptised a lot of folks there (perhaps God's plan in motion so that Paul could pen the words!). It seems obvious to me that everyone was quarrelling about who's baptism was more important. They were elevating different men, even if they were Godly men, to a higher status.

This is a good warning for us. Our baptism should always emphasize God saving us through his son Jesus ... the only person Holy enough to account for all our sin so that we can stand in the presence of God. God is so good, so Holy, that no sin can be in his presence. We are so sinful, we don't fit that bill without our savior Jesus being our counselor/lawyer!

Baptism ... are you a Christian without it?

Pledge of Allegiance ... are you an American without it?

Free will ... are you a human being of sound mind without it? <Yes, some cultures squelch any expression of it, but sure it occurs in their minds.>

Oh well, just some thoughts to add to the mix.

Serve Him!
Tim

As for what you said here Revelator:
"Paul maybe did not do much baptism, because he had other helpers to do it for him. In these following texts he is clearly present at these baptisms, though the Bible doesn't say who actually did the baptising (because it clearly isn't important)- Acts 16:15, 16:33, 18:8, 19:5."

That's a tough one, I'll get back to you on that while I think about it.

†Caleb†

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imsold4christ:
You guys, I [b]did read it in context, I just didn't mention that part when I posted to emphasize my point. Yes, I do not deny that Paul was glad he didn't baptize them because of the "I follow Peter" and "I follow Apollos" stuff. But my question still remains: If baptism was necisary for salvation, don't you think Paul would've taken every opportunity possible to do it?
[/B]

---

Paul was building a base of believers, churches. It was probably most important for local people to do the baptising to start establishing some leadership (see Titus and other books on instructions to elders).

Thanks for the thread, I obviously need to be studying more!

In general, get people in the Word. They'll see that Jesus was baptised, as well as many others, and hopefully God will put that desire on their hearts.

-Tim

(1) We all want to go to heaven when we die.

(2) We know that we cant go to heaven without Jesus.

(3) Jesus suffered and died for our sins, which keep us from God (and so heaven).

(4) Accepting Jesus and his salvation for us is the only way to heaven.

(5) Once you have truely accepted Jesus, you will be with him in heaven when you die, however, because you accept, and love Jesus for what he has done, you will want, yourself, to follow what he taught, and to spread the message/faith onto other people too.

(6) Jesus didn't JUST die, sins forgiven, all done and dandy, but is still alive today, and CARES for and loves each one of us, and wants us to have a friendship with him, and has ways he teaches us about himself, and shows us ways that make life easier for us, or harder, in some cases, but to help us along the way.

I think this is what I've been learning recently. I dont know if I've phrased it correctly, but anyway.

Baptism, if I understand correctly, perhaps, is a thing Jesus uses to help us to understand/know/love him, and although not vital to be a christain, helps people who are baptised. This is just my view of it... I may be mistaken. People will definately disagree with me. I accept that, and know that I am probably wrong. However, because I know Jesus loves me, and everyone else, I dont think that matters. We're each part of the body, and so will all be different.

A foot might be suited to helping to move others into the place they need to be, an eye would be best at showing the feet the way to go.

A foot might need to be washed frequently, but an eye would get hurt.

Because of this, we, being human, and so wanting to tell others what to do (heh), we will have disagreements, but hopefully we will not end up having unsettleable arguments, or grudges.

One of the things CCN is good for, at least in my opinion, is being a place we can all discuss things, and help each other with. I've been helped hugely by people on CCN. Thankyou to everyone.

We (my family and I) are going to be leaving cyprus on tuesday, for a longish holiday/vacation/home-assignment taking a week or so driving thru europe to the UK, then spending July visiting people, churches, etc, and then driving back again. I wont (probably) get much chance to go online while doing this, hopefully I'll be too busy, and be having too much fun to want to. We'll get back to CYP in august, so until then, I wont get much chance to post.

So thankyou everyone, again, God bless you all, and I'll be back in August.

Tally ho! May this discussion last to 20 pages (hehehe)!

MadProf

[This message has been edited by MadProf (edited June 17, 2001).]

Glad you had a nice weekend, and have a nice holiday. (Wish I could fit in your suitcase, but then you would need to go via Australia).

I like your 6 points which shows the source of salvation - Jesus.
(Though I believe that when we die we just sleep in the earth till Jesus comes the second time to resurrect us - but that is probably a good discussion for a new thread)

Being saved is easy, but God wants to do more for us than just save us. He wants us to be more like Him. Jesus has a simple way of doing that - for us to obey his teachings. Jesus has given us many instructions (including Baptism) which will strengthen our relationship with Him.

So each of us has a choice as a Christian. We can stay on baby food, or really grow and power on for God. I know what God wants me to do. (Though I must admit I am really stubborn and God has to work miracles in my life for it to become more like His)

So what do we do? Just accept the easy things that Jesus says in the Bible? Or take a risk and find out what real life on the edge is like - the full Christian life.

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com