General Christian Discussions

Holy war – rowanseymour

rowanseymour

Member

Posts: 284
From: Belfast, Northern Ireland
Registered: 02-10-2001
What with many Palestinians saying the conflict in the middle east will only end by the Jihad, Israelis claiming to have a God given right to build settlements in occupied areas and breaking their 'ceasefire' this morning - is this the impending armageddon?

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Veritech

Member

Posts: 208
From: Lockport, NY
Registered: 01-20-2001
Well, armagedon cant happen until Rusia is a military power again, because it says in the bible that a power from the North will attack... I think the end is near tho. In our lifetimes for sure.
-Veritech
Mack

Administrator

Posts: 2779
From:
Registered: 01-20-2001
I believe it's going to be in our life time as well, actually so does my girlfriend. We believe that the rapture will happen sometime before we die (a natural death, 88 years old). Currently we are both 18.

Can't wait to see Jesus kicking satans @$$.

joeG

Member

Posts: 90
From: OK, US
Registered: 01-20-2001
But remember that God will place a hook in Gog and Magog's jaw. That kind of implies that this Gog and Magog could be quite unwilling to go because maybe they aren't ready to make good on their mutual defense pacts with Iran (the pact does exist).... Or it could mean that there's something in Israel that they really, really want (and it probably won't be a super-duper agricultural miracle-grow formulae either ;-) ). I've heard of the possibility of oil, but I'm kind of doubtful of that because we would have known about it by now (or would we....hmmm). In Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, Hal Lindsey mentioned that since Israel might be the only place in the world that is untainted by nuclear fallout (because everyone's armies are already there ) that this would make them want Israel all the more. Of course they'd have to be there already and have a reason for being in (near) Israel to begin with, but I'm not too sure what that might be.

But about the current situation:

There's this interesting paradox. On one hand you have a people who have been given back a homeland. On the other hand you have a people who's homeland has supposedly been taken away. How would one solve this??? Only God and the anti-Christ knows.

Since he conquers the world through peace (the rider on the white horse) he might threaten to wipe the Palestinians off the map if they don't pipe down, and that could be the 7 year peace treaty. This would make the Arab nations pretty mad at the anti-Christ, and they (the conglomerate could also include the nations of God and Magog) would fight him over Israel.

And the scary thing is is that 2/3 of the Israeli's will be killed, the women will be raped, and it won't be looking too good for the remnant (who is said somewhere in the Bible that they will be refined like pure gold). The only group that won't experience the suffering will be the group that makes it out to the mountains (as told in Matthew 24).

I think I'd rather view this part of history from heaven

joeG

rowanseymour

Member

Posts: 284
From: Belfast, Northern Ireland
Registered: 02-10-2001
quote:
Originally posted by Veritech:
Well, armagedon cant happen until Rusia is a military power again, because it says in the bible that a power from the North will attack...


That's taking revelations a little too literally don't you think. And anyway who says Russia isn't a military power now. They have a hefty nuclear arsenal.

quote:
Originally posted by joeG:
In Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, Hal Lindsey mentioned that since Israel might be the only place in the world that is untainted by nuclear fallout (because everyone's armies are already there)


In the event of a nuclear war there cannot be one place left untainted. Nuclear winter would effect the entire planet

quote:
There's this interesting paradox. On one hand you have a people who have been given back a homeland. On the other hand you have a people who's homeland has supposedly been taken away.

If you are referring to the Israelis and Palestinians that's a bit too pro-Israeli.

I think I'll go read Revelations again. That should cheer me up .

[This message has been edited by rowanseymour (edited May 23, 2001).]

Revelator

Member

Posts: 226
From: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Registered: 03-22-2001
Everyone seems to have their own idea about Armageddon. I just wish we could all be more logical in our approach to understanding the bible like we program.

Revelation is full of symbolism, so you are taking a great risk when you take it literally.

Anyway, don't get me started. I could show you many interesting things from Revelation if you are prepared to let the Bible explain itself and don't check your brains at the door.

But regardless of what we all think - one thing is clear. This world isn't going to last long and Jesus is coming back soon! Can't wait!!!

Revelator!

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rowanseymour

Member

Posts: 284
From: Belfast, Northern Ireland
Registered: 02-10-2001
quote:
Originally posted by Revelator:
Anyway, don't get me started. I could show you many interesting things from Revelation if you are prepared to let the Bible explain itself and don't check your brains at the door.


Please do!

Revelator

Member

Posts: 226
From: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Registered: 03-22-2001
OK.

1. The book is called "A Revelation of Jesus Christ"
(Rev 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John)

Don't miss this point. The whole idea of the book is to reveal who Jesus Christ is in the spiritual war that is fought on this world.


2. It is a book we can understand.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

It can be understood. (That is why it is called "Revelation") And there is a blessing given to anyone who hears and understands, which means it can be understood.

I'll share more after the weekend.(I'm going camping Yeah!!!!)

Revelator!

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MadProf
Member

Posts: 181
From: Larnaka, Cyprus
Registered: 01-24-2001
a few points i'd like to make...

i) *nowhere* in the bible does it say anything about russia, it says, as you said, a power in the north, russia got given this "title" during the cold war, i'll bet. It could be Canada, Alaska, Turkey, practically any europian country... perhaps this is not so, just i (personally) think it a bit racist to think of it must be russia. It could be anyone. I dont know who will "start" it, if anyone does.

ii) I dont know what happen, personally I dont think that the rapture will be *before* the stuff in rev., sadly. It would be nice to think that, but from what I've read, i dont think it will... but thats beside the point really, no-one knows who, when, where, or how "the end of the world" will happen, but all we can do is be ready for it, and to try and reach as many people as we can with the gospel beforehand. Oh well...

iii) If I am alive thru "tribulation", then at least it wont be boring, altho that probably sounds sacreligious. I think the peretti books, and the trib-force books are fun to read, nice christian fiction lit, but AFAIK, still fiction. I like reading them, but I dont think that it will happen that way.

iv) When Jesus said to watch and pray, lest we fall into temptation, could this have had a double meaning for Christians today, watch, and pray, but dont fall into predicting what you think will happen, as if (and probably when) it doesn't happen as you say, you will make non-cs think you a right [insert culturally appropriate word for idiot], and probably think the less of you, and of all other christains.

v) We have a really odd looking "end of the world is nigh" sort of video, i havent ever watched it, but on the outside it has loads of "the world will end in 2000, on the melenium, brillaint! all the classic "end of the world" stuff, all about coming on Jan.1.2k

vi) Which IMHO would put a lot of pertential believers off, saying "those prats! allways going on about us all being sinners and the end of the world! what a load of dung!"

vii) as a friend just tells me (AIM chat), revelation could have been written about the fall of jerusalem as well as the end of the world. power from the north could be the romans... and what about the crusades, do they count as a problem? anyway, i'm not meaning to be anti-anyones beliefs, but just saying a few things.

Anyway, c'y'all (perhaps!)

MadProf

[This message has been edited by MadProf (edited May 27, 2001).]

Revelator

Member

Posts: 226
From: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Registered: 03-22-2001
Very good MadProf. I agree with most of your points.

i) Revelation does not talk about a power from the North. ("North only occurs once in Revelation at that is in reference to the New Jerusalem)
It occurs 10 times in Daniel 11 (The sister book to Revelation). The first half of Daniel 11 is history, but the second half is still future and we don't have a clue who this power from the North is. Isaiah 14:13 says that Satan wants to sit on the sides of the North.

ii) The rapture will never happen. No one will be taken out before the time of trouble. This idea is based on a few bible texts taken out of context.

iii) The tribulation won't be boring. This is the time when God will see how much we trust him. And then when he comes, he is just going to blow away the evil in this world and take us to heaven.

iv) We definitely cannot predict the end time, but in Matthew 24 Jesus says that there are signs to say that it is close - and it is close going by those signs.

vii) The fall of Jerusalem was in AD 70, whereas the book of Revelation was written around AD 90. I don't believe it is dealing with past history, but the future. The roman empire is featured in the book of Revelation, but so is America and a few other major powers.

Anyway, got to go to work.

Revelator!

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rowanseymour

Member

Posts: 284
From: Belfast, Northern Ireland
Registered: 02-10-2001
Hope you had a nice time camping Revelator!

Coming from an anglican background I am pretty new to this whole rapture thing. Its not something our minister would have ever talked about. In fact I remember one sermon which was along the lines of: God would never destroy the earth - he loves it too much. Its a shame - I now see that the end of the earth is something we should all look forward to.

If rapture means God will rescue all christians from the earth before he destroys it, then that isn't what I believe. I believe God will destroy the earth with us still on it and we will be tested again and again until we die and join him in heaven. It won't be easy but the reward is great.

I know that sounds rather gloomy, but I am still looking forward to it!

Rev 8
10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of the water;
11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many died of the waters, because they were made bitter

So is this talking about Chernobyl (Russian for wormwood) or a giant meteorite?

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[This message has been edited by rowanseymour (edited May 30, 2001).]

Imsold4christ

Member

Posts: 305
From: Gresham, OR, US
Registered: 01-20-2001
Heh, we're going to be "tested again and again" whether the end is near or not (though I personally believe the end is near, within my lifetime for sure). It's all part of being a Christian.

John 15:18-21 (NLT)
(Jesus speaking)
When the world hates you, remember it hated me before it hated you. The world would love you if you belonged to it, but you donít. I chose you to come out of the world, and so it hates you. Do you remember what I told you? ĎA servant is not greater than the master.í Since they persecuted me, naturally they will persecute you. And if they had listened to me, they would listen to you! The people of the world will hate you because you belong to me, for they donít know God who sent me.

ÜCalebÜ

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"True friendship is not characterized by the absence of conflict, but by the ability to resolve conflict."

Revelator

Member

Posts: 226
From: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Registered: 03-22-2001
I did have a nice time camping rowanseymore - thanks.

You are right, while we are alive we have to chose which side we are on. Once we die, we cannot change our mind ever again. There are no second chances. That is why we must try to follow Jesus all the time, because we don't know whether today will be our last day on this earth.

Regarding the third angel's trumpet and the great star that fell blazing to the earth - I have a different intepretation on that.

If you notice, in Revelation there are:
7 letters to the churches
7 Seals
7 Trumpets

When you compare each of them (compare 1st letter with 1st Seal with 1st Trumpet) they are similar.

The way I believe we should interprete Revelation is similar to how we interpret the book of Daniel.

In the book of Daniel, each new vision builds on the previous vision.
Daniel 2 is a broad sweep of history until the second coming.
Daniel 7 is more detailed.
Daniel 8 is even more so
Daniel 9 vision predicts the year Jesus would be baptized and the year of his death
Daniel 10-12 throws away symbolism and just tells the future as it will be.

So we get a progression from general to specific.


With Revelation, I believe we are looking at 7 time periods in the christian church. (from the death of Jesus until the second coming).

We are living in the time of the 7th church, (church of laodecia)
ready for the second coming.

I really need to build a foundation so that you can follow this line of thought and see how it gives us the best understanding of Daniel and Revelation.

I probably should start with the book of Daniel, because once you have a grasp for it's prophecies, Revelation is a lot easier to understand.


So do you want me to start with Daniel? (You will be fascinated - I can guarentee that).

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

rowanseymour

Member

Posts: 284
From: Belfast, Northern Ireland
Registered: 02-10-2001
Ok - I am already fascinated.
You should publish this

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[This message has been edited by rowanseymour (edited May 30, 2001).]

Revelator

Member

Posts: 226
From: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Registered: 03-22-2001
Well guys - Let's see what Daniel tells us.

TITLE: DANIEL CHAPTER 2

INTRODUCTION TO DANIEL CHAPTER 2.
Daniel 1:1,2 Shows us that there is a spiritual warfare that is going on.

quote:
Dan 1:1 In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it. 2 And the Lord delivered Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, along with some of the articles from the temple of God. These he carried off to the temple of his god in Babylonia and put in the treasure house of his god.

This sets the scene for the book: How will God respond when He and His people are seemingly overwhelmed by evil forces.


In Chapter 1, Daniel and his friends stays true to his belief in God and His laws and the result is that:

quote:
Dan 1:20 In every matter of wisdom and understanding about which the king questioned them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and enchanters in his whole kingdom.

So we find within the household of the ruler of the then known world - King Nebuchadnezzar - a man of God. (God always seems to have his people within earshot of the powerful people in the world)


DANIEL CHAPTER 2 - THE KING WANTS TO KNOW HIS DISTURBING DREAM

(Read the whole chapter if you can to see if you can work it out for yourself.)

1. The King has a dream during the night that greatly troubles him.(v1)

2. He calls in all his astrologers and people who understand wise things to give an answer.(v2,3)

3. They want to know the dream, but the King either has forgotten it (KJV version) or refuses to tell them (Other versions) They cannot give the King the answer he wants so in a rage of fury, the King wants all of them killed. (v4-13)

4. Daniel is one of the wisemen, and before he is killed, he asks to be taken to the king so he can have time to interprete the dream - and the King grants the extra time. (v14-16)

5. Daniel and his friends pray and God reveals the dream and interpretation to Daniel. They thank God for revealing it to him. (v17-23)

6. Daniel goes to the King, explains to the King that only God has the power to make known and interprete this dream (24-28)

7. NOTE: Verse 28 says that this dream shows what will happen in the future.

quote:
but there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries. He has shown King Nebuchadnezzar what will happen in days to come.


DANIEL CHAPTER 2 - DANIEL DESCRIBES THE DREAM.

1. The dream was of a large statue

A. Head of gold
B. Arms and chest of silver
C. Belly and thighes of bronze
D. Legs of iron
E. Feet of iron mixed with clay

2. A rock made without hands smashed the statue into small pieces which were swept away by the wind.

3. The rock became a large mountain that filled the whole earth.


DANIEL CHAPTER 2 - DANIEL INTERPRETES THE DREAM

A. Head of God - Babylonian Kingdom
B. Arms and chest of silver - Inferior Kingdom
C. Belly and thighes of bronze - Another Kingdom
D. Legs of iron - A Kingdom that crushes and breaks all others
E. Feet of iron mixed with clay - A divided kingdom

Then God's Kingdom destroys all others and endures forever.

NOTE Daniel 2:45 tells us that this is a true dream:

quote:
"The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and the interpretation is trustworthy."


That's all for now. Next I will look at the history books to show you which kingdoms followed the Bablyonian empire, and some interesting conclusions that come from this amazing prophecy.

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www.revelatorgames.com

Krylar

Administrator

Posts: 502
From: MD, USA
Registered: 03-05-2001
Say, Relevator, this is great stuff. You should package it up and I'll publish it to the site as articles. Would be great for non-Christian eyes to get a glimpse of this stuff.

I've actually found that about 80% of the people who read the programming articles also check out the Christian articles...they rarely participate in the boards though.

Lemme know if there's any interest. Doesn't have to be fancy or anything, and I can format it easily enough.

Thanks!

-Krylar

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Mack

Administrator

Posts: 2779
From:
Registered: 01-20-2001
Even thought I've read and watched tons of info on Revelation, I still find other people's views on it to be interesting. I agree with Krylar, it would be a good idea to post this up on the site for people to read.

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A person's faith is not judged by what he says about it, but by what he does about it. - Unknown
All men need a faith that will not shrink when washed in the waters of affliction and adversity. - Unknown
He who dies with the most toys.......still dies - Faithbomb
Say NO to Religion, say YES to God!

Revelator

Member

Posts: 226
From: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Registered: 03-22-2001
Hi Guys. Thanks for the feedback.

I will write an article for you, that way a lot of people have access to it from your main page.

I have been tinkering with the idea of making it into a flash presentation, but I am still thinking about that.

Give me a week, and I should have something for you.

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

Krylar

Administrator

Posts: 502
From: MD, USA
Registered: 03-05-2001
Looking forward to it!

Thanks!

-Krylar

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