posted May 08, 2001 03:36 PM
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Well my friend, I see the contradiction that you do.
Religion for the most part is beliefs without logic, where as programmers are people who's minds are bent towards logic. I think what you'll find amongst most of us is that we're not stead fast mainstream christians. I describe myself as a Christian because I believe that Christ was a messanger from God. I might also describe myself as a Hindu because I believe that all life is connected in ways we can't understand. Probably also describe myself as a Muslim, because I believe that Christ wasn't the final messanger, but I'm a bad Muslim because I don't believe that Mohhamad was the last either. Plenty of other examples.
I've followed a path very similar to Krylars. I originally scorned christianity (the only religion I had been exposed to) seeing to many contradictions in it to believe it. But over time, I've studied alot of religion and come to a conclusion, christianity is but one face of the Truth. Christ was here to deliver a message, guide people along the right path. He understood the Truth better then those around him, and tried to "show them the light". Unfortunately, he was human and they where to. The only means he had to try to show them the truth was the language that they spoke (hebrew?). Humans are flawed and simple, and I don't truelly believe that Christ could have explained to his followers that which he understood completely, but he did the best job he could.

I've got alot more to say on the subject, but I don't think it polite to write a 5 page post regarding it. I'd be happy to discuss my beliefs with you or anyone else who's interested, if you'd like to get ahold of me.

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Religion for the most part is beliefs without logic, where as programmers are people who's minds are bent towards logic.

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<g> who says programmers have to be logical? just because programming is logical, and programmers are good at logic (well, supposedly), doesn't mean we have to be logical.

anyway, religion is often thought of as non-logical, and often people think of it as "blind trust" in unlogical-ideas, but really, they are logical, and often a lot more logical than secular ideas (eg, evolution vs. creation).

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I think what you'll find amongst most of us is that we're not stead fast mainstream christians.

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i dont quite understand what your saying here...

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I describe myself as a Christian because I believe that Christ was a messanger from God.

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that isn't, IMO, what being a christian means... and Jesus was a lot more than just a messenger, he is the son of God, who is also part of God. He came of his own free will, and died for our sins. You can't call yourself a Christian, just because you believe Jesus is a messanger from God.

Acording to what i think is in the Qu'ran, Muslims all (should) belive that Jesus is a messanger from God... that does not mean all Muslims are Christians..

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I might also describe myself as a Hindu because I believe that all life is connected in ways we can't understand.

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I dont really know much about Hinduism, but I dont think that is what they believe. I thought it was more complicated than that.

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Probably also describe myself as a Muslim, because I believe that Christ wasn't the final messanger, but I'm a bad Muslim because I don't believe that Mohhamad was the last either.

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ditto my thoughts above.

I'm not meaning to be antagonistic, but I really dont know what you are saying here... almost sounds as if your saying you belive the "all religions are one" sort of thing... just the way it sounds to me... please explain more.

MadProf

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7 days without prayer makes one weak.

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anyway, religion is often thought of as non-logical, and often people think of it as "blind trust" in unlogical-ideas, but really, they are logical, and often a lot more logical than secular ideas (eg, evolution vs. creation).

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I use the phrase non-logical for those without faith. To those who don't believe in God, the belief in such seems irrational and fool hearty. This is opposed to those who believe in God who see absolutely no problem with the situation. A good friend of mine described faith to me as something you have to experience to understand. This was before I had found a belief in God. I do believe she was right. Before I had any faith, it seemed mearly like believing in something for the sake of believing in it. Now understanding what it is, I realize it's alot more then that. It's like finding the missing piece to a puzzle. Except I've never heard anyone properly describe it, and I'm not going to try mself. So when I said unlogical in reference to religion, I meant it in the perspective of one who hasn't found religion yet.

The phrase about steadfast mainstream christians most definately wasn't the best phrasing I've ever come up with. In my mind I have a picture of someone who blindly follows their religion because it's all they've ever had. There is no doubt in their mind about their beliefs, and there is no contemplation about expanding their understanding beyond what the Church tells them.
If a person has the choice between this and no religion what so ever in their life, I believe this to be the better choice. But I myself haven't been able to follow that path. I've had to contemplate every aspect of my belief, to reconcile it against what I already believe I know.
What I had meant by the phrase "stead fast mainstream christians" was those who blindly follow 'The Faith'. What I had meant to say is that it'd, in my opinion, be a rare occasion to find one of those blind followers in this community; that I suspect the majority of people here are those who have contemplated their own beliefs.

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that isn't, IMO, what being a christian means... and Jesus was a lot more than just a messenger, he is the son of God, who is also part of God. He came of his own free will, and died for our sins. You can't call yourself a Christian, just because you believe Jesus is a messanger from God.

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To my mind, I believe a christian to be a follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ. I suppose that this isn't true because the Muslims believe in his teachings, just not the role in the scheme of things the Catholics claim him to have. So when I say I'm a christian, I mean that I am one who tries to follow in the foot steps of Jesus Christ as best I can. But I want to clarify this a bit. The Catholic Church is the decendent of the teachings of Christ. But it's been in the hands and control of normal men for a long time now. I think the Catholic Church is the closest thing we have to the original teachings of Christ, but I think that they are very flawed.

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I dont really know much about Hinduism, but I dont think that is what they believe. I thought it was more complicated than that.

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No, your right, the Hindu's beliefs are alot more complicated then that, but I was trying to shorten a 5 paragraph explanation of Hinduism down to something I could use in a sentence to contrast against the beliefs of Christians and Muslims.

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I'm not meaning to be antagonistic, but I really dont know what you are saying here... almost sounds as if your saying you belive the "all religions are one" sort of thing... just the way it sounds to me... please explain more.

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<g> that's actually pretty close to the truth of my beliefs. I think that if God sends messangers to us, he's not going to limit himself to the people of Europe and the Middle East. Catholisism is the by-product of the messanger Jesus Christs comming to us. Muslim is what's resulted from Mohammed delivering his messages. I believe that the majority of religions (though not all) of the world have sprung from divine intervention. I also believe that time, culture, the requirements of people to survive, have all shaped these religions into what they are today, not to mention the corrupting influence of men ourselves. But I believe that most of them have their roots in God trying to deliver the Truth to us, and our own limited interpertations of that.

Once again, no problem explaining more, was just short for time earlier and didn't think I should lecture. Hope this makes my thoughts clearer.

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Regards,
Nathan O'Brien
Freelance Thinker
"Reality is our perception of the Truth; the Truth unattainable, and our perception flawed"
"The only thing I can guarentee is that I'm wrong"

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If a person has the choice between this and no religion what so ever in their life, I believe this to be the better choice.

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IMO, all religions are not the same... I dont want to upset any believers of other religions by saying this, but some are definately not from God, and are from satan.

so it is *not* best to have religion than no religion, if the religion is not Christianity (from my point of view).

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What I had meant by the phrase "stead fast mainstream christians" was those who blindly follow 'The Faith'. What I had meant to say is that it'd, in my opinion, be a rare occasion to find one of those blind followers in this community; that I suspect the majority of people here are those who have contemplated their own beliefs.

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I dont know about the people where you are, but as far as I know, and most people I know who are Christians, dont blindly follow what their dad told them who was told by his dad before him, etc... as they didn't want to follow their father, and became Christians themselves, after God speaking to them.

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To my mind, I believe a christian to be a follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ. I suppose that this isn't true because the Muslims believe in his teachings, just not the role in the scheme of things the Catholics claim him to have.

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In his teachings, he said himself that he is the son of God, but Muslims dont believe that.

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So when I say I'm a christian, I mean that I am one who tries to follow in the foot steps of Jesus Christ as best I can. But I want to clarify this a bit. The Catholic Church is the decendent of the teachings of Christ.

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so should all churches be.

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But it's been in the hands and control of normal men for a long time now. I think the Catholic Church is the closest thing we have to the original teachings of Christ, but I think that they are very flawed.

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When you say "Catholic Church", do you mean the ones who have their base in Rome, their leader is the Pope, and do a lot in Latin? Or do you mean another sense of "Catholic"?

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<g> that's actually pretty close to the truth of my beliefs. I think that if God sends messangers to us, he's not going to limit himself to the people of Europe and the Middle East.

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Of course not! Thats why Jesus said to his disciples to go out into the world and tell everyone!

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Catholisism is the by-product of the messanger Jesus Christs comming to us. Muslim is what's resulted from Mohammed delivering his messages. I believe that the majority of religions (though not all) of the world have sprung from divine intervention.

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Intervention, mabey. Divine, I think Not.

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I also believe that time, culture, the requirements of people to survive, have all shaped these religions into what they are today, not to mention the corrupting influence of men ourselves. But I believe that most of them have their roots in God trying to deliver the Truth to us, and our own limited interpertations of that.

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OK. Perhaps we ought to define "religion" here... My beliefs are based on the Bible. Religion could mean all the formal stuff, eg, the Vicar or priest wareing all the robes & stuff that the Catholics & CE do, also things like the special prayer books, service rules, etc. The "Thou must go to chuch every week or thou shalt go to Hell" thingy. This is what a lot of people think it means, and this is part of the corruption that you were saying, I think. Nowhere in the Bible does it say, "you must go to church", however, it does say it is good to meet regularly with other believers.

As far as I see, God gave his messages to the Jews thru the prophets. They prophicied Jesus' Coming to earth, and so, as they said, he did. He taught his disciples a lot of things about God and the Kingdom of Heaven, and Himself. Then he died, and rose again. He died for our sins, and took the punishment that we ought to have for them. Then he came back and taught some more, warned them against false prophets, and left again, saying he would leave the Holy Spirit to comfort and guide us until he comes again. So far, he has not yet returned, and his disciples, Christians, us, have the holy spirit living in us, and should try to spread the good news about him to everyone else, or as many people as we can before he returns. Many people have been lead astray from his teachings, by other prophets, by corruption, as you said.

Because God loves us all, he would not want us to argue and kill each other. He has said this. This is one of many reasons why I think that God did not inspire other teachings, as they disagree with Jesus teaching, and so cause arguments, killing, hate, sin, and evil. I'm not saying that Christians are not to blaim for a lot of it, but it would not be so much there if there were no other religions.

There are other reasons too. Jesus said that he is The Way, the Truth, and the Light, and there is no way to God, except through him. This pretty much thwacks the "there are other ways to God than Jesus" theory on the head.

MadProf

PS - I think this is going to be a long discussion...

[This message has been edited by MadProf (edited May 09, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by MadProf (edited May 09, 2001).]

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Originally posted by FrosGate:
I describe myself as a Christian because I believe that Christ was a messanger from God. . . . christianity is but one face of the Truth. Christ was here to deliver a message, guide people along the right path. He understood the Truth better then those around him, and tried to "show them the light". Unfortunately, he was human and they where to. The only means he had to try to show them the truth was the language that they spoke (hebrew?). Humans are flawed and simple, and I don't truelly believe that Christ could have explained to his followers that which he understood completely, but he did the best job he could.

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Visit this site please. http://www.ccci.org/whoisjesus/interactive-journey/claims.htm It says exactly what I want to say. If you don't think it holds enough water I can provide more.

†Caleb†

I read the top post a few days ago but haven't had the time to point out that Christ cannot be a messanger from God. Either he is God (as he claims) or he is a Liar! He cannot be something in between.

Just click the link above which Caleb has supplied - that explains it all.

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

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Originally posted by Revelator:
Darn you Caleb . You beat me to it.

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Heh Heh Heh...

†Caleb†

/* Prof out. */

Let me ask this...

Is it logical to believe in evolution when Darwin denied it all on his death bed?

If you're not a Christian but you're not "sure" about God, is it logical to not open a Bible and do a little research to find out if He is real?

Is it logical to believe in a "worldly" set of morals that looks out only for oneself?

Is it logical to get drunk every Friday night to drown my troubles?

Is it logical to believe whole heartly in science, when sciences opinions change daily? first evolution theory, then intelligent design, then...

Is it logical to deny Christ when his life and feats are documented and backed up by histortical experts?

Is it logical to believe in something that has not been around since the beginning of time?

The average person spends 17 years in school studying. Why? To be a better person? To know, what? Truth? Isn't it logical to at least look into something that has been documented since the time Moses left Egypt?

I wish I could say I am a gung-ho Christian, blinded by the light, and all that but I am not... I am logical through and through... I've research the alternatives, I've lived with God and I've lived without God. And to me God is as logical as it gets. To me there is nothing else more logical.

Is it more logical to believe in a Creator than evolution? (Common Sense tells us there is a Creator)

Rather the Problem is:

If I believe in a Creator - then I have a responsibility to Him!

People pursue evolution (despite the leaps of faith they take to believe in it) so that they can justify the selfish life they live. Their reasoning is that "If there is no God - then I can do whatever I want with my life."

Unfortunately they don't realise that when you connect with the Creator - your life has meaning, understanding, purpose, and access to God's power.

If you want to live life on the edge - BE A CHRISTIAN! (One who's desire is to do God's will - not a church seat warmer)

That's my two bits worth for today.

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

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I wish I could say I am a gung-ho Christian, blinded by the light, and all that but I am not... I am logical through and through... I've research the alternatives, I've lived with God and I've lived without God. And to me God is as logical as it gets. To me there is nothing else more logical.

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springs another question:

Are we believing in God only becuase of logic?

If so, is not this a bad thing, as it sugests that if something more logical came up, that you would change your point of view? Or by saying this, do you mean that you came to believe in Jesus because of logical reasons?

Because God wants to have a relationship with each of us, and so will comunitcate in whatever language/way is best for each person, which seems to say that there is no such thing as a "typical christian", as, as has already been said by people, christianity is a personal thing, or at least, it should be. If you are a person who will only be spoken to by logic, God will speak to you with logic... And yet continuing this way of thinking ends up with " so if God wants to speak to me, he needs to speak in miricles, which are all that will make me believe" which is wrong, as God doesn't do that. By saying that, you are taking the illogical step of saying that really you dont believe this, and only something really big will make you believe. This is one of the things which annoys me about scientists, they go on about science proving evol, and all, and yet are not willing to examine all evedence otherwise (which means, study all religions, and other theorys) as well as just believing in evol.

What a load of blather this message is ! Oh well. This topic seems to have turned into a load of proves of Creation, and God.

/* MadProf, over and out. */ /* Beep */

FrosGate: Ela! Ela! Ela!
Rev: Very good point, reverse the reasoning, and it does look a lot worse for evol!