So here's what I *do* have:

A really good generic domain name for a Christian site (in my opinion anyway).

Free bandwidth and a nice server dedicated to my personal use (I own the ISP).

The ability to create just about any software needed to drive any kind of web site.

Here's what I *don't* have:

A lot of time to devote to it (although this is slowly changing as I pass more of my administrative duties off to my employees).

Good graphics design skills (although the actual HTML and overall site layout are not a problem).

A really good idea for how I want to use it. Should it become yet another portal, just a list of Christian links? A Christian search engine? Maybe a Christian "hotmail" (I've created two different web mail products already so it would be almost trivial to do)? Maybe a place that provides free web space for Christian groups (youth groups, churches, etc.)? Maybe all of the above?

It would be nice if it generated *some* revenue, enough to cover any expenses, but I'm not necessarily looking to make a profit off of it.

Any thoughts?

Mark

Great URL...I agree you gotta do something with an URL that good What to do???

How's about setting up a "geocities" type thing (but not as involved) where Christians can go and setup little communities and all that? You could easily sell advertising on there. The problem would be the development effort and bandwidth...at least as I see it.

I know that's a huge undertaking, but you need something pretty big to go with that URL.

-Krylar

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So for example if you signed up as "krylar" you'd get "krylar@christian.net" as an email address (I've already written a web POP mail client that could be used for this - see http://webgadgets.com/phpost) and you'd get "http://christian.net/krylar/" as an URL (I've already written a pretty decent web based file manager that could be used for that as well).

Throw in a bunch of ready-made gadgets (counters, form processors, guestbooks, etc.) and set some ground rules (limit the amount of disk space, no huge downloadables, content policies, etc.) I'd reserve the right to place a banner ad at the bottom of your pages (none of those lame pop-up ads or anything like that, nothing that blocks the visibility of your page like some do).

The main page could also act as a portal to a Christian links database, similar to Yahoo's index, which would include external sites as well as those that are hosted on Christian.net.

Hmmm... sounds like a fun project, but do you think people would actually use it?

Mark

[This message has been edited by Believer (edited April 19, 2001).]

One thing a lot of people want is free webhosting, and I think you would get a lot more people interested in having their pages hosted on your site if you could give them a virtual website address such as, mike.christian.net.

People like to have their website address easy to remember.

That is why I use batcave, they give me mike.batcave.net, and for them it isn't even virtual - that is the actual address I upload to.

Not sure how hard it would be to impliment - just an idea for you though.

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

The more I think about the whole thing the more I like it, but does anyone have any alternative suggestions for how the domain might be used?

Mark

I have two domains that I haven't developed yet either but could be quite fun. <Separate question - anyone know of a cheaper domain seller? I've seen around low $10s for a year.>

spendeternity.org
looktojesus.org

Along the lines that Revelator posted, how cheaply could you provide web hosting for a small site with minimal traffic and storage? Would that cost go up if you'd let us map to it directly (so www.graceworksinteractive.com)? Could you offer it for even cheaper if we gave you the banner on the front page you'd ask for free hosting? How about a banner on *every* page?

Yes, I could go with truepath.com but their pricing is a bit high for us small independents that don't have a sellable product yet.

Also, since you have complete control of content, we should explore what ways we can take advantage of that for web-based Christian games! Probably best in a separate thread though.

Just some questions and thoughts. Looking forward to hearing back from you.

Serve Him,
Tim

quote:

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Originally posted by Believer:
The more I think about the whole thing the more I like it, but does anyone have any alternative suggestions for how the domain might be used?

Mark

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Demo of first game is available at Jarod Journey's Web site. Second game is in storyboard stage.

[This message has been edited by graceworks (edited April 20, 2001).]

quote:

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Along the lines that Revelator posted, how cheaply could you provide web hosting for a small site with minimal traffic and storage?

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Depends. I currently provide totally free email/web hosting accounts for various Christian organizations (a pro-life group, a children's puppet ministry group, several churches, a bible camp, various charities, etc.) We donate maybe $20,000 a year in free Internet services. None of those are commercial outfits though, just ministries that need every dime they can save. All I ask of them is a link on each page that says "this space donated by..." and the name of my ISP. This is via my ISP though, it's not under the "Christian.net" umbrella (maybe it should be).

If you have a business site that generates money (directly or indirectly) then I'm less inclined to give away free resources, of course.

This concept of a Christian Geocities-like service would probably allow commercial sites, but like Geocities I'd probably have to forbid any banner ads except those that I append to pages automatically. I'd also have to place restictions on bandwidth (eg: you couldn't put a 20 MB video clip on-line that gets downloaded 100 times a day - and lest you think that's absurd, I have two customers right now that use over a TERAbyte of bandwidth each and every month! They pay for it though :-) )

quote:

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Would that cost go up if you'd let us map to it directly (so www.graceworksinteractive.com)?

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Once you do that, I lose the (not so minor) benefit of having my domain name appearing everywhere that you promote your site. So the question becomes, are the banner ads on the pages worth it?

Or perhaps the solution is: everything is free as long as it uses my domain and I have control over banner ads, but you could have your own domain for a small annual or monthly fee (say $20/year or something - I don't know, just thinking out loud).

quote:

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Could you offer it for even cheaper if we gave you the banner on the front page you'd ask for free hosting? How about a banner on *every* page?

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Like Geocities and others, I'd probably want a banner ad on each and every page. I'd probably just configure the web server to append a CGI reference to a banner system onto the bottom of every page. Naturally the ads would be Christian-friendly.

Mark

A few years ago when I joined geocities, it worked fine, for just about everything i wanted to do... except webspace. i hardly had *any*. 2 meg or so... and I was just learning how to use games-factory, and wanted a place to upload my (simple) games for people to download. geocites.com was easy to use, very friendly, etc. then i got more webspace! whoopie! and then even more! yahoo! and sadly, "yahoo!" was the correct word for it. they took over geocities, and now have made such horrible limits that i've been searching for a new host ever since. i cant hyper-link to non-html pages from other sites (eg, blender pics or .zip files) and a few other nasties.

They have gone too big and corporate. <sigh> making it a heck of a lot harder to use. besides, its less family friendly now, with whole neiborhoods for all sorts of people.

If you did start somthing like this... I'd join ! and i think i know a few others who would too. a few questions/requests tho... could people have a cgi-bin, and a mysql database? these sorts of things are very very useful for people who need/want them (eg, me!).

for other ideas, you could have a sort of christian slashdot.org, or similar, where members can post stories that are of interest to other christains. perhaps a web-based newspaper.

MadProf

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7 days without prayer makes one weak.

FYI, I don't mind your domain showing up in the address field. What I do want though is proper redirection so that folks that type in the URL of www.graceworksinteractive.com[/url] will get redirected (true, the file locations may be graceworks.christan.net). Another nice thing would be my smaller sites being linked in under the main account (like a sub-directory structure). Again, proper redirection will not prohibit anyone from seeing the sites.

Does anyone have experience with other web hosters? Like Hypermart or FreeServers? I had used BizLand but they are charging now. I still have nbci (was xoom) and truepath.com. These are okay, but don't exude confidence for a "business-oriented" web site.

Tim

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Demo of first game is available at Jarod Journey's Web site. Second game is in storyboard stage.

members.christian.net/krylar

...that seems to work okay for them

Then you could have the www.christian.net be the information/get started/sign up/etc. part of the site.

-Krylar

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quote:

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a few questions/requests tho... could people have a cgi-bin, and a mysql database? these sorts of things are very very useful for people who need/want them (eg, me!).

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User supplied CGI scripts are almost always a bad idea in terms of security. There are only three ways I'd allow any kind of CGI. The first way would be via ready-made CGIs that I've developed. The second would be in the form of PHP4 scripts (running in safe mode). The third would be in a CGI programming language I created called M-Script (visit www.islandnet.com/mscript/ for details). Anything else (eg: Perl, Python, C, etc.) would be too insecure for a system that is free and deals largely with anonymous users.

MySQL databases might be possible if I can automate the creation of them without compromising security.

Graceworks said:

quote:

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$20/year is reasonable and I'd be willing to pay that (as well as give you the ads and a mention of provider on each page). If you can avoid charging a huge set up fee, that would be great too. Where do I send a check??

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If I did this there would likely be no setup fees at all - the whole thing would be automated and would involve very little human involvement to maintain or support. The biggest cost to me would be bandwidth (which is "free" in the sense that I'm already paying for a lot of bandwidth that I'm not using, but not free in the sense that my ISP business is paying for it and if Christian.net took off and had thousands of users I'd have to upgrade my links at some point).

So a free hosting/email service aimed at non-profit Christian ministries would be a no-brainer. Lower bandwidth sites generally, smaller number of overall users... Give me ad space on everything in exchange (or a tax receipt :-) and it's not a problem.

But when you start allowing commercial outfits to use the service... well they *generally* (but not always) use more bandwidth, more disk space, make more demands in terms of features, want their own domain names, etc. Not to mention that I'd get an awful lot more users overall.

Now if I said non-profit ministries were totally free while commercial organizations had to pay a small annual fee, that would probably do the trick, but then there's the whole problem of policing things (actually viewing all the web pages and making sure people aren't abusing the free service).

Maybe it's easier to say it's free for everyone, commercial or otherwise, up to a point. If you need more than X megs of disk space, or Y megs of bandwidth each month you pay extra. The majority of sites would never exceed those limits and never have to pay anything.

I like the overall idea, and the technical side of things isn't a problem, but the policy/cost side of things will need some thought.

Mark

quote:

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Originally posted by Believer:
Hmm, been searching around and I've found a few sites that already offer free Christian hosting (eg: christianity.com, homewithgod.com). A little discouraging, but I still think I have a better domain name ;-)

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Mark, your domain is a great name!

Plus, did you look at Christianity.com? Talk about a step function if you go and pay for more service ($300/month for the bronze level!). You can pay to have them host a domain name for you at the 'free' level, looks to be $15/month. Which is too much in my opinion.

I looked at the homewithgod one as well. I couldn't find if they will host a URL name for you or not. I'll Email them and see.

How much does the overhead of maintaining entries in the Domain Name Server cost? If that is reasonable, you could offer domain redirection for free/cheap (have a pop-up ad open anytime someone comes through).

I'm still interested in the virtual hosting (having my URL load from your server). I'd be glad to be a beta tester for it too! One of my web sites needs to find a home since Bizland starting charging. I could go back to truepath, but want to evaluate other options. If $15 to $20 per year is achieveable (for a low traffic site), I could even pay up front. Let me know. You can Email me graceworks@bigfoot.com .

Thanks for your time,
Tim

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Demo of first game is available at Jarod Journey's Web site. Second game is in storyboard stage.

DNS is almost trivial to maintain and host once you set it up. I manage a set of DNS servers right now that host over 2,000 domains. Everything is pretty much automated with scripts so it takes only a second to add/change/delete info.

But free hosting sites are generally loathe to allow "real" domains because it decreases the visibility of their own domain name. If all these places I were to host had their "christian.net" urls and email addresses listed in phone books, church bulletins, press releases, ads, etc., it would really drive up the hitcount (and therefore the banner ad impressions, and therefore the revenue, and so on).

I'm trying to avoid turning this into a commercial project that's all about the revenue. I'd like to use the domain name in a way that's more of a ministry of some sort, like providing free hosting for churches, youth groups, missionaries, etc. Once I allow commercial clients it starts to change the focus a bit. That's not to say I wouldn't allow them, just that I really need to think it through first - is it really the best use of the domain?

Hmmm... how about a free hosting service where the banner "ads" aren't really ads but instead were things like bible verses, invitations to get saved, etc. You could have a web site here but every page would also spread the word. The down side is that there's no revenue at all to cover any expenses.

Mark

I already have a couple of very succesful Internet businesses, with others under development. I'd really like to keep this project "pure" - nothing can ruin a ministry faster than when it starts to make money and the focus shifts, yet at the same time it has to cover expenses (if any).

Mark

I have been keeping up with this dialogue and agree that there is really no different between Christian hosting services and others.

You really have a chance to do something different with Christian.net where money is not the main object.

Please don't let anyone persuade you to do otherwise.

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

quote:

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Originally posted by Revelator:
You really have a chance to do something different with Christian.net where money is not the main object.

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I agree. But Mark found homewithgod and they seem to be doing God's Service as well. The webmaster has responded quickly to a couple of my Emails and he stated he doesn't earn much from the free hosting but builds enough web sites as a business to cover expenses. He has offered free redirection of URLs to their free space as well. I'm investigating that now.

I encourage Mark to keep praying about Christian.net - I'm sure God's plans are larger than any of us can see! Let's add Mark to our prayer list (if he doesn't mind).

Serve Him!
Tim

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Demo of first game is available at Jarod Journey's Web site. Second game is in storyboard stage.

There are other good Christian hosting sites out there who are vollenteering a lot of their time and money to help non profit Christian websites.

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

Mark, when do you think you will be up and running? Should I wait to be a test case for you or proceed with homewithGod?

Look to Him.
Tim

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Demo of first game is available at Jarod Journey's Web site. Second game is in storyboard stage.

I'm just not convinced that I want to turn Christian.net into another hosting company. I already operate a couple of those, I'd rather use this domain to more directly serve God. Now perhaps part of that will be to provide free web space to various ministries, or to provide free web mail, etc., but I feel there's something beyond that.

For example, is there anywhere on the 'net where you can go and browse a database of missionaries of various denominations? Maybe see some photos, find out where they are and what their focus is, maybe learn about their financial needs, their prayer requests, etc. A place where missionaries and/or their support team back home can keep their supporters up to date on how things are going through an HTML and/or email newsletter.

Or what about a prayer request database that would allow you to list your needs (anonymously if you wish) and browse through others'? Kind of a cyber prayer chain. People would be encouraged to post followups so you know how things turned out. You could sign up to get email alerts when requests matching certain criteria come in (maybe you suffer from cancer and want to help pray for other cancer victims, or maybe you work with youth and want to pray especially for homeless teens).

Or a database of personal testimonies? Sermons? Daily devotions? I don't know, I'm just making these up as I go along. Maybe a site that provides all of the above?

I guess what I'm after is something that would result in a real community feeling, a place people would want to visit on a regular basis. A place that even unsaved folks might visit.

Mark

quote:

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Originally posted by Believer:
Or what about a prayer request database that would allow you to list your needs (anonymously if you wish) and browse through others'? Kind of a cyber prayer chain. People would be encouraged to post followups so you know how things turned out. You could sign up to get email alerts when requests matching certain criteria come in (maybe you suffer from cancer and want to help pray for other cancer victims, or maybe you work with youth and want to pray especially for homeless teens).

Or a database of personal testimonies? Sermons? Daily devotions? I don't know, I'm just making these up as I go along. Maybe a site that provides all of the above?

I guess what I'm after is something that would result in a real community feeling, a place people would want to visit on a regular basis. A place that even unsaved folks might visit.

Mark

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Those sites already exist. I reccomend you visit the links section of my website. Only the best Christian links there. There you'll find the sites you described. Also check out http://myfamily.at/prayer/ ASAP. It's a superb site for prayer needs.

However, I have yet to see a missionary site like you were talking about. I think you should go with that. But hey, whatever is the Lord's will...

God is good.
†Caleb†