Game Design Music and Art

Christian Games vs. Clean Games – Kirk

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
This afternoon a neighbor teen after doing some small chores for pay wanted to spend some time playing my Bible game called Christain Life for a second time. As we did, at one point he spontaneously but in response to the game put his hand on me and conveyed God's blessing to heal my lungs which had been feeling poorly and then to my legs which need some minor healings. My lungs definitely feel better! The leg problems haven't fully recovered yet but they feel better too.

So it seems justified to put God's best words into a game which can inspire the players to share the Spirit imparting divine life into others, as opposed to merely clean games that don't inspire spiritual action.

My board game can be seen at http://prayer_child.tripod.com/game.html and if there's interest I can post the pictured content as text to give you an idea of what the Bible really says which should go into all Christian games. If your pastor disagrees, it's time to term limit your pastor!

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Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

SSquared

Member

Posts: 654
From: Pacific Northwest
Registered: 03-22-2005
That is a terrific experience. Thanks for sharing. In fact, just reading it spurred me on to pray for your lungs and legs.

This issue has been discussed many times at the Christian Game Developer's Conference as well as generally within the community. I'm not sure anyone necessarily disagrees with your statements.

What I have seen are several different thoughts.

1) A Christian working in the secular world.
2) A Christian making a clean game.
3) A Christian making a game within the context of the Bible.
4) A Christian making a game with strong emphasis on the Bible, where everything about the game points you to learning and growing in Christ.

There is probably a 3.5 in there, too. But these are generally the camps of thought. Perhaps everyone agrees with your statements, but each person feels different callings. Some are called to #1, some to #4 and so on.

On another thread you mentioned you did not feel the contest games spurred you on in anyway spiritually. I can't remember exactly and it appears you removed the bulk of the original text. But there is really no way of knowing how people reacted to each game. Someone may have played "Finding Adina" and thought, "YIKES! Am I that lost shepherd who needs to return to Christ?" Or played Leo's "Lost Sheep" and realized, "Hmmm, I'm gathering all these sheep in this game, but am I gathering the REAL sheep?" Or, maybe someone on the outside was reading all of our messages on the board and asking themselves, "Why aren't they fighting over whose game is going to win? Why are they encouraging one another? Something's different here."

How do we explain a game like "Eternal Wars" being used as a catalyst to turn people to Christ? The user was not bombarded with a constant barrage of spiritual messages or biblical passages. Instead, there is simply a story going from hopelessness to hope.

I think it's great you are finding ways to actively impart spiritual truths in your game. Maybe Jari will add some comments. He is one of the voices on here for adding Biblical truths to games.

[This message has been edited by ssquared (edited August 23, 2007).]

jestermax

Member

Posts: 1064
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: 06-21-2006
Kirk: From what it sounds like, I've gathered that your stance is either A) don't bother making games, get a degree in theology and become a pastor and THEN think about programming games, or B) all "Christian games" should have biblical messages stuck to them everywhere or it's not a "Christian game".
EDIT: that seems a bit flawed reading it now, but my point is that it requires an exaggerated amount of only bible scriptures and nothing else matters.
Maybe I'm wrong and I missed something though, but it seemed like that's what you were getting at in the Speedgame thread.
Which Brings me to the point that complaining that you didn't feel anything spiritually from a game that one person (or two) took two weeks to make.... well, just seems like a pointless thing. Again, if I'm wrong I apologize, but it IS called a "Speedgame Contest hosted by a Christian website", not a "Make a Christian game, take however long you want but just make it an equal experience to reading the bible" contest; that's where the speedgame thing stopped and real life began .
Anyway, I restrained myself somewhat from my comments so I think I'll stop now.

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Visit my portfolio (and check out my projects):
www.JestermaxStudios.com

[This message has been edited by jestermax (edited August 23, 2007).]

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
Should all entertainment explicitly teach Biblical truth?

Should all of our rock music try to have lyrics that communicate a salvation message? What about instrumental music?

Should all of our paintings depict Bible scenes, or at least be captioned with Bible verses? What about sculpture? What about interior design? How far do you take this?

Should all of our games center around communicating Bible teachings? How far do we take this?

There's a popular sentiment in some evangelical circles that seems to imply that anything that isn't overtly evangelistic is sin. That mindset is all I'm intending to speak against here.

I'm not saying that category 3 and 4 games are bad -- as SSquared said, there certainly is room for that. But I think there's room for categories 1 and 2 as well, and we need to be aware of how those games can do things that category 3 and 4 games would not.

"Play" as a theory of fun is a healthy thing for people, as it's simply a way that we learn and exercise our brain, just as humans. Tetris is a stimulating mental workout that teaches/practices our ideas of spatial relationships -- I think that it's a quite healthy game for people to play, and there is merit in developing such "clean" games.

I'm certainly open to creating a game that communicates Biblical truth (indeed, that's some of what we tried to do with our speedgame), but it wasn't our focus, and I think that's okay.

--clint

OthnielBenKenaz

Junior Member

Posts: 7
From: Elkhart, IN
Registered: 08-16-2007
So the question I have is, what makes a game a "Christian" game. What makes anything more "Christian" than something else? I think we can all agree that most (if not almost-all) games are not clean. They don't care about being clean, they care about making money, which means sales. And it's often more lucritive the further from clean the game is. So I hope we can all agree that these games are not "Christian". Yet a clean game, usually developed to provide good-moralled people with etertainment, is more "Christian" than a game simply made to make money and be fun. I think any attempt to take an active role in censoring the content you will allow yourself to be apart of is making an active effort to be more Christian in your life. And therefore, makes the result more "Christian" than it might have been (had you not cared).

Is a clean game as "Christian" as a game that plays like you're reading the bible (to quote jestermax)? Probably not. But can we atleast agree that is was an improvement? Simply making clean games seems like it should at least shed light on moral recklessness of pop-culture. And that's a step in the right direction.

jestermax

Member

Posts: 1064
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: 06-21-2006
I have to say that I completely agree with Clint, and it reminded me of another point that comes up in my head in these arguments; it's not always Christians that play "Christian games" (i hate putting the "Christian" label on things just to separate them, but I'll assume that you understand my usage of the term). Contrary to popular Christian belief, atheists and non-believers aren't always eager to do things that include getting preached to. I think that the other categories of games (1 and 2? i can't remember) play a key role in evangelism with this medium.
</kicking dead horse>

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Visit my portfolio (and check out my projects):
www.JestermaxStudios.com

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
quote:

SSquared wrote:

1) A Christian working in the secular world.
2) A Christian making a clean game.
3) A Christian making a game within the context of the Bible.
4) A Christian making a game with strong emphasis on the Bible, where everything about the game points you to learning and growing in Christ.


I propose a category 5 game, one that actually inspires spiritual results in the players, like mine as described in the first post in this thread.

In my understanding of "idolatry" at least your categories 1 and 2 qualify and likely 3 too if it's a very low rendition where the characters exist in the Bible but act in non-spiritual ways. In my opinion idolatry is at minimum a waste of time and at worse very unhealthy.

If it provides an inaccurate picture of Jesus like the Book Of Mormon it can harbor demons which can cause people trouble. I found through their Usenet group although it wasn't common, I'm not the only one who was kept awake at night praying to fight a demon until I got rid of that book. I hope Christian gamers want to present God's best or at least healthy words.

And no it doesn't take going to a seminary where you can attend and still learn just cat. 1-3 counciling. Read to master the Gospels and Revelation which have most of Jesus' words, after which if you forget all but 25% you'll still know one gospel and some of Revelation which is plenty for a great Christian life and source of game ideas.

> But there is really no way of knowing how people reacted to each game.

I recently read the developers of Halo 3 use a psych lab to examine reactions of players from beginner to expert in order to get ideas for better balancing the need to interest new people and not bore expert gamers. From what I hear of clinical trials, it takes 140 people to "prove" a concept but just one giving a spiritual reaction is better than none. So trying your game out on some people and observing their reactions would provide reaction data.

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Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

jestermax

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Posts: 1064
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: 06-21-2006
@kirk: it still seems that your aim is to eliminate all other forms of the "body" except one "arm". If learning about Jesus Christ was like this then we would have no churches, no gatherings, or anything else except just our bibles. Same thing goes for spiritual gifts; yes for example healing may be good, but if everyone had the same gift then would we not be weaker for it?

I have no complaints at your wishes for another category that say "inspires spiritual" results but i think that maybe you just plain don't get it... why would there BE "christian games" in the first place if they didn't impact you spiritually? THAT may be the definition between clean and christian games right there actually. Except that the line is very subjective; what YOU may find spiritually empowering, i might not.

Now about your ideals of the first 3 categories rating from "Waste of Time" to "Very Unhealthy", it would be great if every christian that wanted to make games could work at christian game companies. but the truth is: there isn't a lot of them, but i don't see why it's harmful to have categories 1-3 unless you're perverting the word.
I don't see why it's right to assume that all/most games would pervert God's word though.... or am i just not understanding you?...

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Visit my portfolio (and check out my projects):
www.JestermaxStudios.com

Matt Langley
Member

Posts: 247
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-31-2006
Another thing to keep in mind as well is the target demographic and goal.

Are you trying to distribute your game to Christians to teach and encourage them. Or are you trying to outreach to non-Christians to plant the seed.

If you are trying to outreach then sticking to strict Christian themes that shoves the gospel down their throat will just scare them away. Due to people in our world already not being very Christ like and trying to control and force their perspectives on people it has made spreading the love and message of Jesus hard. There are quite a few people that balk if you even bring up the message due to their experiences. This is a reality and as much as we try to show that Jesus is about love and understanding not about damnation many people still have that state of mind due to others. To reach these people we much use our heads and the wisdom of the Lord to express his message in a way that doesn't scare them off... that shows that a game can have a message from the Lord in it but not try and indoctrinate the user. Christian games already have a bad reputation because of this.

Now on the other hand, I believe Christian games that target Christians should have good content that is spreading the word of the Lord. Though it's important to keep in mind the use of a game is to have fun and if your game isn't fun then people won't play it long enough to gather the message you're trying to convey.

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Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
I think you need to understand that for the purpose of Jesus which is His spiritual kingdom, one spiritual reaction like I discribed in the first post for a category 5 game is worth 1000 purchase decisions for a category 1 game and two category 5 reactions would be worth 10,000 category 1 sales. Do you recognize where those figures come from?

The point is to move upscale to where Jesus is instead of staying downscale were Jesus isn't. Then you'll have something worth sharing with heathen.

If you're getting a lot of "cram down throat" reactions, either your audience is kidding or you are presenting the message inadequately or perhaps the wrong message. The only ones Jesus got such a reaction from was Pharisees. When I hear that phrase, I often ask to see someone cram something down someone else's throat. That takes some wind out of them.

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Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

samw3

Member

Posts: 542
From: Toccoa, GA, USA
Registered: 08-15-2006
quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
If you're getting a lot of "cram down throat" reactions, either your audience is kidding or you are presenting the message inadequately or perhaps the wrong message. The only ones Jesus got such a reaction from was Pharisees. When I hear that phrase, I often ask to see someone cram something down someone else's throat. That takes some wind out of them.

I beg to differ.. Jesus said "All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." Matthew 10:22 Even when the message is clear.. most will not accept it. Narrow is the path that leads to salvation.


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Sam Washburn

Check out my CCN SpeedGame 2 Blog

[This message has been edited by samw3 (edited August 23, 2007).]

Jari

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Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
In my opinion Christian game should show the right values in life that Jesus spoke about. That is of course love your neighbour.
But secular world doesnt understand what this means, people think they are good and loving when they love their friends and the neighour next door, in addition to their own family.

Also secular world's fortune is in this world while Christian is away from home in this world. What Jesus says in this verse is a good reminder about priorities in what comes to earthly wealth and being spiritually rich:

Mar 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?


This is just a simple example how we can say "there is much more than just life, much more than this what you see now". And when unsaved person thinks what? How? we answer Jesus, He can change you.

And even you wouldnt want to include the answer and say about Jesus, for some reason, the game can still show the good godly, spiritual values in life which Jesus lived by.
He even prayed for His enemies - in how many clean games you have the change to forgive?


The possibilites are great! May God bless us to be able to accomplish this.

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Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] (Contact) - Truedisciple (mp3)

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
quote:
Jesus said "All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." Matthew 10:22 Even when the message is clear.. most will not accept it.

I agree certianly. But within the realm of Jesus it is possible to be the intercessor who can stand in the gap between God and man. Thus we should pray that there be nothing in us, what we say, or how we say it at fault before God. Then whenever they reject, it's entirely their fault and maybe they'll see that and someday repent.

Both of my brothers claim they believe yet one tries to stir up controversy and blames me when I disagree with his non-Biblical attitudes and the other just gets mad at Christian ideas he didn't come up with in the conversation. I believe they are both stuck in category 3 or 4 and haven't come up to category 5 yet. When they do, we'll be one I expect.

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Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
the other just gets mad at Christian ideas he didn't come up with in the conversation.

That must get frustrating.

quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
I believe they are both stuck in category 3 or 4 and haven't come up to category 5 yet.

Those categories weren't presented as levels where it's better to be higher, they were presented as avenues that one can use to go about sharing the love of Christ in different ways.

--clint

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited August 23, 2007).]

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
Aha, Clint! I didn't say if they were my bio-bro's or people here. Your opinion tells me you don't comprehend the reality that if a believer isn't at the level 5 experience they aren't really expressing Christ at all in the other levels except as an empty philosophy or as a undercoming Bible publisher.

Here's an example of my writing Biblically logical truth before the actual experience, which the teenager had and I benefitted from but I wasn't at his level of love and faith.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, I played several levels of a SpeedGame entry and now I can ask
myself, "Did I learn anything of Christianity by playing that game?"
The answer of course is NO.

The characters do exist in the real world but what they do in the game
differs from what they do in the Bible. Mostly it's purpose is just a
"clean" game, not a Christian game. Worldly games can be clean and do
not need Christian Coders to make them. Christian Coders should be
there for a higher calling. So I suggest next year's SpeedGame contest
add distinct entry categories for "Christian games" and "clean games".

The desire for ecumenicalism posted by Clint elsewere suggests
focussing on non-Biblical clean material may foster unity among
Christian Coders who get offensive dealing with real Bible material. I
believe that's the coward's way to appeal to the least common
denominator which makes for a least Biblical denomination as your
standard of normal development pursuit. That may explain why some
liberals in world politics want to quash the Bible. I suggest trying
the Christian hero's way instead. That would involve reading the Bible
and getting smarter on it than your pastors until you see yourself as
a shepherd leading your assembly by writing software instead of
speaking. BTW, that implies in the next election voting for the best
pastor for every office.

Here's a guideline for keeping Christian oneness which Jesus prayed
for as you study to become better than current pastors. In Rev. 21 we
see a new heaven and new earth. The only thing from the old earth
which comes to the new is the New Jerusalem which comes down out of
heaven. Based on the typology of Esther and son Darius who rebuilt
Jerusalem, the building of the New Jerusalem is the job of the
Manchild, bringing dead believers up to the standard Jesus requires of
His Bride. That makes the manchild the most important Christian entity
to develop in this time before the rapture. What happens to your
denomination in Rev. 18:4 shouldn't concern you if you overcome enough
to be part of the manchild. Thus you need not defend your denomination
or its doctrines, you really need to pursue the highest level of truth
available in the Bible.

I doubt many Christians understand what their calling is let alone how
to interpret it into a game design. I gave it a try in my board game
at http://prayer_child.tripod.com/game.html but several chickened out
from playing it at CGDC lest they be exposed to ideas they were to
lazy to decide if they agreed with. Do you want to be a network of
Christian Cowards or Christian Heroes? Your brain was designed by God
to be able to understand scripture if you diligently seek truth from
Him in prayer. Do the work to be a truth seeking Christian and your
games will be better for it.

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Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
Kirk: I agree with what you said in your original post. I think your story is a great testimony about how God can move on and use people. I think it's cool how God's so awesome that way. However, after reading your views about "casual" games I do have several practical points to raise.

Firstly, if you created a Christianly overt game such as your Christian Life game you and your game are going to be laughed off the face of the planet by a very large percentage of the currently existing market. This doesn't mean that a new market can't be created, and it certainly doesn't apply in the case of providential divine intervention, but it's something worth considering. I don't know one of my non-Christian acquaintances from college who would touch any game like that with a 10 foot pole.

I'd also like to ask how well you knew the young man in your story before the instance you mentioned. I'd be interested in knowing what kind of person he was and life he lived before the incident, it seems to me that he'd have to be fairly spiritually mature and gutsy to have the obiedeance to do something like that. I admire him for it.

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The time for speaking comes rarely, the time for being never departs.
George Macdonald

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
One more thing that caught my eye that I liked in your most recent post was the part about interpreting your calling into a game design. I think you've hit on something there. I find that whenever I write, whether it's a poem or a story or a game I find it's more powerful and intense for me if I write it from my own experience. When I pour my own pains and write out the stories of God's grace in my life the power that springs forth and the dramatic shift from deep, inky darkness into wonderful, overcoming joy is amazing. I agree with your idea here, I think everyone should try to write from their own experience, their own story, their own testimony if you will. This creates an intensity and power that also gloryifies God and carries deep significance for the person writing it as well.

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The time for speaking comes rarely, the time for being never departs.
George Macdonald

Matt Langley
Member

Posts: 247
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-31-2006
quote:
If you're getting a lot of "cram down throat" reactions, either your audience is kidding or you are presenting the message inadequately or perhaps the wrong message. The only ones Jesus got such a reaction from was Pharisees. When I hear that phrase, I often ask to see someone cram something down someone else's throat. That takes some wind out of them.

I agree with your comments about Jesus but I disagree with your conclusion. Neither you or I are Jesus so there lies a distinct possibility that in that case said person isn't presenting the truth adequately in a way that reaches people. Note just saying the truth isn't always adequate, how you say it, and how considerate you are is. Jesus was completely truthful while being amazingly compassionate, personable, and considerate... what does it matter if you speak the truth while ignoring the other attributes of Jesus prevents others from taking your words honestly.

I've found multiple facets of how you address people offensive, as well as assumptions you've made of me in the past. I think often your message is either the truth or what you believe to be the truth and I believe it is important that you do state it. I think you would get better results reconsidering how you state it. Often this is just as important as what you state.

Just a note... I see our disagreement in this mirrored in how people (including me) originally took your comments. I think you have good things to say and by saying them in a way that comes across like the other person is an idiot is the best way to ensure others won't hear it.

I feel the same in Christian Game Design. If your target is someone who has been spurned by Christians before and runs away whenever they see the word Jesus, you need to be more creative in an approach to developing that game.

I'm talking about games that outreach... on the other hand I believe you make some good points about games that target Christians.

Much like Ereon said I know multiple non-Christians that would even give the game you presented a chance. Then again that may not be the goal of such a game.

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Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

samw3

Member

Posts: 542
From: Toccoa, GA, USA
Registered: 08-15-2006
Well said Matt.

however, in your post..

quote:
..would even give the game..

i think you mean "wouldn't"? At least that is what Ereon said.

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Sam Washburn

Check out my CCN SpeedGame 2 Blog

[This message has been edited by samw3 (edited August 23, 2007).]

samw3

Member

Posts: 542
From: Toccoa, GA, USA
Registered: 08-15-2006
Another clarification...
quote:
The only ones Jesus got such a reaction from was Pharisees.

This is not true. See John 6:60-66

60: Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?"
66: As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.

So, even Jesus, presenting the gospel message perfectly did not persuade all men. Even his own disciples struggled with it to the point of turning away.

I think what is important to note is the power of the Holy Spirit to enlighten the spirit, mind and soul. That is our only hope for salvation. We will be equally as spiritually blind without God's Spirit.

Even in Revelation, Jesus repeatedly says "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

Our games should be as we should be.. "Salt and light", as Jesus says.

Salt is appealing. Light is revealing.

But the Holy Spirit is who draws mens' hearts toward God.

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Sam Washburn

[This message has been edited by samw3 (edited August 23, 2007).]

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
quote:
Matthew Langley wrote:
I think you have good things to say and by saying them in a way that comes across like the other person is an idiot is the best way to ensure others won't hear it.

Question: What is your opinion on samw3's correction of your error? Does it come across like you are an idiot? If not, what is so different between that and statements by me? If so, what kind of correction would you accept?

------------------------

samw3:

>> The only ones Jesus got such a reaction from was Pharisees.
> This is not true. See John 6:60-66

Not exactly. You seem to forget the Jewish culture down to fishermen at the time were educated in Pharisee teachings to the point of expecting a Messiah. So even those who didn't call themselved Pharisees still had some Pharisee beliefs which caused them to turn away.

> Salt is appealing. Light is revealing.

Salt kills slugs, germs, and some weeds. Light can turn wood into annealed diamond depending on intensity. Thus salt is to kill evil things so the light can build upon revealed truth. How would you kill a worldly non-Christian's resistance to the truth?

------------------------------

In my experience with the teen, he had recently worked on two of my computers and left one in partial disrepair yet lied twice that he put it back the way he found it. On the day of the faith experience, I confronted him again so he walked away and I hollered, "Do you like lying to yourself and me?" He eventually came back and fixed the computer. He also wanted a refund on some headphones which he didn't get much for as they were returned broken. Then he wanted other work for pay which was provided. After that he sold me a neon clock. And finally he wanted to play the game during which he expressed Christ. I suppose treating him as a caring father might have helped him express love to keep me around.

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Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

samw3

Member

Posts: 542
From: Toccoa, GA, USA
Registered: 08-15-2006
quote:
Not exactly. You seem to forget the Jewish culture down to fishermen at the time were educated in Pharisee teachings to the point of expecting a Messiah. So even those who didn't call themselved Pharisees still had some Pharisee beliefs which caused them to turn away.

I didn't "forget" anything Kirk. Even the twelve were trained in the oral traditions of what would later be referred to as the Gemara. But that didn't make them pharisees any more than attending a church, or even being raise in one, makes someone a pastor or deacon. My point is that the "spiritual leaders" of the time were not the only ones blinded from the truth. We all are and only by the Holy Spirit are we reborn into Christ and renewed in our minds.

Salt preserves food and light can melt matter to a plasma state. Thus salt is to preserve edifying things and light can tear down even the smallest structures.

No matter which way you look at the metaphor... be salt and light!

> How would you kill a worldly non-Christian's resistance to the truth?
I would speak the truth in love and let the Holy Spirit enlighten them.

------------------
Sam Washburn

Check out my CCN SpeedGame 2 Blog

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
I second Sam's answer to killing a wordly Christian's resistance. I seem to recall something about if your enemy is hungry you feed him, and if he's thirsty give him something to drink. It's supposed to heap burning coal on his head (which figuritively would represent purifying his mind, and therefore his response toward you) and if I'm not amiss fire is a much better purifier and destroyer than salt is. Salt melts slugs, fire consumes them, and just about everything else for that matter. Salt kills some weeds, fire consumes whole forests, but all this fire doesn't come from berating people or even speaking truth, it comes from kindness, even when they ridicule you, waiting until they're hungry and thirsty, until they're needy and they want what you have, and then you feed those same people who were trying to hurt you with the word of God. This purifies and changes their mind. That seems like a fairly effective and Biblically sound method to me.

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The time for speaking comes rarely, the time for being never departs.
George Macdonald

[This message has been edited by Ereon (edited August 23, 2007).]

Matt Langley
Member

Posts: 247
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-31-2006
quote:
i think you mean "wouldn't"? At least that is what Ereon said.

You are correct Sam. I definitely meant "wouldn't" instead of "would", lol got to love sneaky typos


quote:
Question: What is your opinion on samw3's correction of your error? Does it come across like you are an idiot? If not, what is so different between that and statements by me? If so, what kind of correction would you accept?

A very good and valid question... no I didn't take offense, he said it in a very respectful and considerate way. For example let me display what he said and what you've said to me in the past and you can objectively judge the difference.


samw3:

quote:
i think you mean "wouldn't"? At least that is what Ereon said.


Kirk:

quote:
I am a programmer, you are a documention engineer, thus my logic is naturally higher than yours enabling me to see through your insults which you apparently don't even recognize.

quote:
Seeking God's best church instead of the church of your choice is always an excellent idea yet you've ignored it.


Do you see the difference in the way sam has phrased his statement versus yours. I hope you can because it is huge and dramatically effects how one evaluates another.

Also in response to:

"If so, what kind of correction would you accept?"

I think that's part of the problem as well... do you consider the two quotes I have from you are "corrections".

For one, the first one is completely incorrect. Using logic, for me to be able to document game technology that involves programming I would have to have a very high understanding of programming to accomplish it. Also you mis-interpreted "documentation engineer". This is meant to reflect the work I've done on the documentation back end systems I've coded from just about scratch. Systems that parse our entire doc base, orginizes, stores search tables, and hot-links various reference code and words (as well as various other aspects). I do in fact write documentation as well, but as I said logically that would mean I should have a high level of understanding about code to be able to write about it. Even beyond that term I am indeed a programmer, I was a dev on Torque Game Builder before and while being Lead Documentation Engineer.

So look at this from my perspective... you claim your logic isn naturally higher than mine because I'm not a programmer when I am in fact very much so am... plus you phrase it in a demeaning way. How would you like it if someone made assumptions about you and expressed them in a demeaning way.


The statements you consider "corrections" I consider "opinions". Even when sam was stating a correction that was fairly obvious he still stated it in a respectful way, asking if that was indeed a mistake:

"i think you mean"

rather than demeaning me because I didn't type what he thought I really meant.


Another thing to keep in mind is you have some very strong views of the truth and what certain interpretations of parts of the Bible are correct.... keep in mind that these are not fact, they are your opinion. Every single one of us may have a different view on any particular concept but that doesn't mean that we should "correct" others to our point of view. If we held that perspective we all would be fighting to no end and no one would every consider something new.


That said, I think you've been responding much more respectful and considerately now. The fact that you asked me a question of what is different in yours vs others shows it and I respect that. As I said I think you have some good perspectives, opinions, and logical conclusions that could benefit others... though I also think you could benefit from the same from others. We are here to share our views and help contribute to eachothers thoughts and perspectives. No one man is completely correct on everything.

------------------
Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
I noticed that you are talking about who's logic is better, which surprises me as if you had not read Job and know how to aproach arguments/debates considering your own wisdom. Because in Job the there is a very good lesson how the youngest proved him self to be better in knowledge than the elders and he did this humbly yet declaring that it was his moment to be heard.

Job is important part of the Bible showing us how to engage debates with patiance, determinance, humble heart, without looking into persons, speaking right about God.


I'm just trying to encourage every one to sharpen your tools for these debates by reading the Bible, praying wisdom from God.
I'm not considering to be somehow more advanced in the wisdom given by God through reading the Bible, I find these debates missing the basic principles on some parts which explains why we cannot get along and arguments become personal.

In Christ,
Jari.

[This message has been edited by jari (edited August 24, 2007).]

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
I have just one opinion to add to this.

Kirk... my poor fellow forum member, I feel sorry for you. Do you know the main reason why people play games - computer games?
Obviously not.

It's not to be preached at, brainwashed, or converted. Nor is it to participate in occultic practices like casting magic spells - or even to indulge their homicidal tendencies by mowing down computer generated enemies.

They play games to have fun.

Now I'm sure you're thinking, "Man, I feel sorry for this poor nutty guy.", Kirk. Ah well. We're all nuts to some degree.

HeardTheWord

Member

Posts: 224
From: Des Moines, IA
Registered: 08-16-2004
Kirk, most people who are regulars at CCN have had, to some degree, a discussion over how "Christian" to make a game. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I want to point out that you are basing your statement on the speedgame entries. First let me say that it is hard enough to get a playable game done in two weeks but to create a theologically sound game in that time would take a master programmer or else a larger team than one person.

I think there is room for both types of games. Honestly I don't think a video game is going to bring someone to Christ by itself. It takes people around this person to act as an example of Christ and to show what it means to be a Christian. By itself a game is just a fun way to pass the time. I'm not discounting the fact that games can't teach something but they would fall under a different category.

Another thing to mention is that some of us would like to be able to make a living off of developing games, just like a person that wants to start a coffee shop down the street. To do this we have to have customers, and like most people before me have said not too many people can digest that much theology in one sitting. I hate to bring in the business perspective but this is something you have to take note of.

Above all else, I hope that you are successful with your game. If we work hard and God blesses us then anything is possible. Just keep in mind that belittling others opinions will not get you very far, and you tend to get the same reaction in return.

Randall
Member

Posts: 44
From: Sacramento, California, USA
Registered: 06-19-2007
quote:
Kirk. Ah well. We're all nuts to some degree.

Amen! Agreed! NUTSO! HAHAHA!!!

It's pretty hard to make a christian game Kirk.
Because, their ain't any money in it. Hardly anyone does it.

What most people do is to play it safe.
It's better and also safer to make some mildly, invisible reference to scripture in games and hope the good angels intervene and portray your message to the audience.
They may or may not do it too! Who knows?

Because that way, people don't get offended by your works. HAHA!
I find that christians are the harshest critics and always seem to be easiest to offend.

Anyways, remember this world is very spiritual. The good angels can use any works they want to convey a given message to their human subjects.
We are not alone down here. Woo, Ha, Ha!

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
To beat the dead horse once more...

Mat's claim that it is logical for a documentation engineer to know programming is not necessarily true. I worked for a contractor to a government agency who hired another contractor having documentation people who were not programmers at all, more like secretaries. Comparing the two situations, I think it's based on the customers -- the government wanted documentors to interface between secretary level users and programmers but your employer needs documenation to interface between programmer level users and programmers, making it necessary to have a higher level of documentors. Thus before encountering Mat's arguments I assumed all full-time documentors were secretary types.

Now back to topic...

My dad apparently was saved by watching Billy Graham on TV. I don't know God's mind on this but it would seem such a thing might happen with an equally good presentation by game media. That should be a Christian Game Developer's goal at minimum. A higher level of Bible study to completely understand the new pentateuch should be another goal.

The lower level goals should be reexamined and hopefully dropped. We already have way too many pastors dumbing down their audiences for money. Let game developers adopt higher standards as Jesus gave in the gospel of the kingdom in Mat. 10:7-8 where He said, "freely you have received, freely give."

Just because anyone has an opinion on what the manchild is doesn't mean they are correct or even are trying to be. I recently received a reply from the pastor recommended by Eric "superman" on gameACE and the pastor followed his idea supporting it with a "probably" as in if it referred to the church it would "probably" be female. How can people use such illogic professionally?

I guess logic isn't a requirement of law just like truth isn't. Political correctness is whatever a judge says. But if truth were the standard, at least a quarter of current prisoners would be free according to the actual innocence project. I would hope Christian game developers also being programmers have a higher standard of what really works over a mere opinion they might voice.

The correct interpretation may not have been even thought of by any scholars yet. That is, the Rev. 12 woman is the end-time church proven by the fact it gets left behind for the great tribulation in v.6 after the rapture in v.5 of the manchild who is the overcomers with the reward of a rod of iron in Rev. 2:28-27 and sitting with Jesus on His throne in Rev. 3:21. That is the Biblical truth, the standard which cannot be refuted logically. It is also not rocket science -- any of you should be able to figure out that is the one true interpretation. Overcomers are believers who obey Jesus in all seven relationships with Him recorded in Rev. 2-3, praying to overcome all the sins and praying to grow worthy of the rewards, praying always.

The first post in this thread shows that advanced scriptures inspire the acts Jesus demands. The same neighbor often listens to popular music with lyrics such as "I hate everything about you..." which didn't really inspire his good deed and I told him so, but he still spends more time with low-life music that reminds me more of the idolatry of Pentecostal Gibberish than anything wise.

So on the fun issue, I'd suggest we can have fun at a much higher level than even today's Christians are used to if we get into the Spirit and Bible more. Let's say the neighbor was having fun with my game when he put his hand out to heal me. Had he remained in that spirit flowing out his healing energy, just think how much fun he could have had with that!!!

------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
The problem with your Billy Graham TV example Kirk is that TV is a medium designed principally for both entertainment and information. A computer game, on the other hand, is design primarily for entertainmant, and, if it's to be successful, never solely for information. A game may contribute information, but it can never do so exclusively, because once it does it effectively ceases to be a game, or at least ceases to be a game people play for fun. I disagree with what you're saying about video games being a good presentation of the salvation message. Directly, it cannot work in a similar fashion if the game is to remain a game, unless it's woven in allegorically into the storyline. If you want a game to have the same effect as a Billy Graham television sermon you, well, have to make a Billy Graham television sermon.

The other part of your post that concerns me is that you attribute your young friend's bold behavior to your game, or at least to just reading scripture. If you're life isn't showing fruit to begin with, and you're not willfully submitted and aligned under God's authority, there is no way on earth that He's is going to use you to perform a genuine healing. That's part of what concerns me about your story, the fact that the previous actions of this person didn't not constitute the behavior that you told me about. The plant isn't matching the tree. A game won't make you a spirit healer or move you any closer to God, no device can do that, only a will surrendering act of repentance, surrender, and humility can do that. It wasn't "his healing energy" to quote you. If it was a genuine healing it had absolutely nothing to do with him. I get the disturbing impression that you're be trying to give too much credit to humans, human effort, and human logic.

------------------

The time for speaking comes rarely, the time for being never departs.
George Macdonald

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
The best Christian game would be a Christian Heroes Game where a shepherd rounds up a flock of disciples and as they pass through game levels they gain more Christian powers (a.k.a. talents) to heal for example and they multiply their talents until they can heal all kinds of things like Jesus did including dead people. One could portray the healing power in color being at first communicated with material carriers like the mud Jesus put in someone's eye or the girdle Paul healed with then on to healing with the fringe of a garment or even a shadow as the Apostles did. Then the remote healings where the same color would come out while speaking and vibrate its way to the sick and heal them wherever they are.

Others could grow in other talents, like taking off from where the Bible leaves changing water into wine and multiplying feasts to make other kinds of food eventually including feeding a person spiritually so there is no need for physical food but God supplies energy directly to each cell. Or take off on Philip's getting teleported by the Spirit to another place to eventually get control of it to teleport a healer wherever someone needs healing, including a space station. Eventually teleporting people to wherever they need to be for the rapture.

Now what if players unleashed the power in their own lives like the young man at the start of this thread? What if many more talents were discovered and multiplied? Take the talent of Shadrack, Meshack, and Abed Nego to walk in a firey furnace? The talent of one prophet to cause an axe head to float which could eventaully raise sunken ships?

What if real healing energy came forth and your game started inspiring people to release their spirits and do the acts portrayed like true Christians doing God's will instead of merely having secular fun with Christian a theme?

You see the game ideas suggested elsewhere are indeed a dime a dozen but developing the Bible into a game that actually inspires spiritual acts would be priceless.

quote:
If you want a game to have the same effect as a Billy Graham television sermon you, well, have to make a Billy Graham television sermon.

Exactly! So there is no problem with it, except the work involved.

quote:
The other part of your post that concerns me is that you attribute your young friend's bold behavior to your game ... A game won't make you a spirit healer or move you any closer to God, no device can do that, only a will surrendering act of repentance, surrender, and humility can do that.

To me it sounds like you've set yourself up as elder to judge something you didn't experience. If a vessel of water is just worldly water one moment then instantly transformed into the best wine the next moment couldn't a worldly Christian kid become a genuine healing Christian for a moment? And couldn't some of my game have inspired him to cooperate with the One who spoke the words in my game which duplicate His which are Spirit and Life like Jesus said?

> If it was a genuine healing it had absolutely nothing to do with him.

Could his healing energy which I felt in my body be from God at some level? Let's say the speaking from Balim's donkey had nothing to do with the donkey -- yet if the donkey wasn't there, would the speaking have happened? Don't be inconsistent in your interpretations.

> I get the disturbing impression that you're be trying to give too much credit to humans, human effort, and human logic.

I think you are trying to be disturbed. Couldn't it be you who err denying the skills God gave you including the ability to make an effort to obey Jesus and the rule of logic? Do you think Jesus' miracles would have happened if Jesus wasn't there? It would help greatly to adhere to Mat's desire to not be made to sound like an idiot if you guys would at least try to think a little on the positive side before you write -- try interpreting everything I write as almost as true as Jesus' words then if there's anything that doesn't fit, complain on that.

[This message has been edited by Kirk (edited August 27, 2007).]

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
>To me it sounds like you've set yourself up as elder to judge something you didn't experience. If a vessel of water is just worldly water one moment then instantly transformed into the best wine the next moment couldn't a worldly Christian kid become a genuine healing Christian for a moment? And couldn't some of my game have inspired him to cooperate with the One who spoke the words in my game which duplicate His which are Spirit and Life like Jesus said?

I'm simply trying to be cautious. I do not think it an impossibility, but I do think that it's very potentially dangerous. Do you remember what Jesus said of some of those who did great, miraculous works and yet did not lead a righteous life?

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

To have the experience without the change is certainly possible, as shown from this passage, but it has the potential to be very eternally lethal. I think it is possible that your game caused him to have the courage to try, but at the same time I think that it may also have placed him in a, potentially, dangerous situation where he's experienced some of God's power, but without nesecessarily becoming submitted to it. I know that's something I've struggled with alot in my own life, that possibly why I'm so worried about it.

> If it was a genuine healing it had absolutely nothing to do with him.
I'd say it was totally from God on every level. When I said it had absolutely nothing to do with him, I absolutely meant that as well. You don't need someone to touch you or pray for you for God to heal you. It ties into that whole Omnipotent deal I believe. God allows people to be used for his will, but just because he uses us doesn't mean he needs to do so. It's like the Israelites, who were so proud of being children of Abraham; John the Baptist put them straight by informing them that God was capable of raising children of Abraham from the rocks they were standing on.

>I think you are trying to be disturbed. Couldn't it be you who err denying the skills God gave you including the ability to make an effort to obey Jesus and the rule of logic? Do you think Jesus' miracles would have happened if Jesus wasn't there? It would help greatly to adhere to Mat's desire to not be made to sound like an idiot if you guys would at least try to think a little on the positive side before you write -- try interpreting everything I write as almost as true as Jesus' words then if there's anything that doesn't fit, complain on that.

Certainly those skills are there, but those skills are flawed, and have potential to become even more so. At best we can make an effort to obey Jesus, at best we can make an effort practice and obey logic, but every human on earth except for Jesus himself who has even made an effort to do so outside of God's divine grace and mercy has not only failed, but failed utterly and miserably. As for Jesus' miracles, he's the only person in the Bible that I read about whom people attributed His power directly to Him and he accepted it. Peter and John, when they were at the temple, recognized the healing of the blind man as a God given gift ("what I have I give unto you") and at the Day of Pentacost, when everyone else thought they were drunk or worse, it was Peter who proclaimed loudly and confidantly that everything they were hearing and seeing had nothing to do with these men or their supposed drunkness, but was a promised gift of God, and had nothing to do with man. That's why I love the way David talked, his words were "What is man that you are mindful of him? and the son of man that you visit him?". David knew the secret, that he was mortal, and he was unholy, while God was infinite and God was perfect and irrefutably holy. David knew the secret, even before the coming of Jesus, that he was the branch and God was the vine, and that apart from God's favor, and lovingkindness he could do nothing.

As for it being a good thing for me to be worried about sounding like an idiot, I view it as being a moot point already and a lost cause regardless, so it's not something I'm particularly inclined to be worried about.


------------------

The time for speaking comes rarely, the time for being never departs.
George Macdonald

[This message has been edited by Ereon (edited August 28, 2007).]

[This message has been edited by Ereon (edited August 28, 2007).]

[This message has been edited by Ereon (edited August 28, 2007).]

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
quote:
I do think that it's very potentially dangerous. Do you remember what Jesus said of some of those who did great, miraculous works and yet did not lead a righteous life?

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

To have the experience without the change is certainly possible, as shown from this passage, but it has the potential to be very eternally lethal. I think it is possible that your game caused him to have the courage to try, but at the same time I think that it may also have placed him in a, potentially, dangerous situation where he's experienced some of God's power, but without nesecessarily becoming submitted to it.


I question how dangerous it is. Would you rather they stay only social Christians instead of moving even a little toward becoming spiritual Christians? Yes the people in those verses failed to obey Jesus sufficiently to get raptured at that time but it might inspire them to get more serious about Jesus to get raptured or at least die in Christ later.

You all shouldn't continue being afraid of growing from being social Christians to being spiritual Christians. Instead love Jesus and the change he offers. If you make mistakes in the spiritual realm and do something by your self-will instead of Jesus' will, at least you'll be talking to Jesus about it eventually as those verses say. There is no assurance that people who remain social Christians will even do that. There are other verses for those people:

quote:
Matthew 25:24-30
24Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Note this judgement is describing a more serious result than facing a closed door to the rapture. This is describing being given deep dark depression for the lack of investment or use of the person's spiritual talent or supernatural power. I have wrestled with that problem for most of my life and fortunately learned to pay attention to the tiny spark of spiritual life buried underneath my depressed soul and eventually grew in spirit enough to overcome the outer darkness.

So I strongly suggest getting much more serious about Jesus than your pastor and anyone else you know. Only Jesus can guide us into a life where we don't make serious mistakes. But we must actively cooperate with Him to do His will. Pay attention, multiply your talents, and if you've received His answer enabling you to make games, do the work in prayer and study to make them teach what He wants them to teach.

------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
Kirk, thanks for the step in the right direction with your civility. I reiterate, please be careful to not throw around too many insults and sweeping insulting generalizations. I know you don't have genuine respect for many (any?) other people here, but please try to show some, if for nothing else than out of Christian brotherly kindness. I appreciate that you're being mostly civil in your discussion with Ereon -- this is certainly a step in the right direction.

quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
if there's anything that doesn't fit, complain on that.


Okay. Here's a small note...
quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

...snip...
Yes the people in those verses failed to obey Jesus sufficiently to get raptured at that time but it might inspire them to get more serious about Jesus to get raptured or at least die in Christ later.



Perhaps we should take a more in-depth look at the chapter -- if you read one verse previous to the verses that Ereon quoted, you might note that it's talking about trees being cut off and thrown into the fire. In verse 21 it's talking about entering the kingdom of heaven, and the sense is that it's talking about the courtroom motif commonly used in talking about the day of judgement. I believe the evidence from context says that the verses Ereon quoted are indeed talking about the same thing that's in Matthew 25:30.

Cheers!

--clint

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited August 28, 2007).]

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
quote:
Originally posted by Ereon:
>To me it sounds like you've set yourself up as elder to judge something you didn't experience. If a vessel of water is just worldly water one moment then instantly transformed into the best wine the next moment couldn't a worldly Christian kid become a genuine healing Christian for a moment? And couldn't some of my game have inspired him to cooperate with the One who spoke the words in my game which duplicate His which are Spirit and Life like Jesus said?

I'm simply trying to be cautious. I do not think it an impossibility, but I do think that it's very potentially dangerous. Do you remember what Jesus said of some of those who did great, miraculous works and yet did not lead a righteous life?

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Ereon, did I understand this right, that God would punish/condemn some one who does works in His name carelessly or otherwise fails?
Hmmm, I think the message in those verses is quite different. Notice how the people in those verses come to Jesus saying, as the first thing, that they have works? They are assuming God to let them in heaven because they have done something in the name of Jesus. Where they are wrong because it's grace alone not works (Eph 2:8-9).
They were workers of iniquity because they worked in self rightneusness and not rightneusness that comes from faith in Jesus Christ.
So the right attidute for the last day is more like:

(Luk 17:10) So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

May God bless us to understand His grace, to see His love.

I'm sure we can pray for healing even for nonbelievers but they should have faith (at least some):
(Act 14:9) The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,

Touching verses:

Mar 9:23-24 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. (24) And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.


Mar 16:17-18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


What a great promise! I have witness only the new tongues so far my self but you do hear about sick being healed and beliving in God from the missionaries.


So I am sorry if this went way off topic but that should be covered..?


God bless.


------------------
Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] (Contact) - Truedisciple (mp3)

[This message has been edited by jari (edited August 28, 2007).]

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
Note this judgement is describing a more serious result than facing a closed door to the rapture. This is describing being given deep dark depression for the lack of investment or use of the person's spiritual talent or supernatural power.

Kirk can we take a look at those verses again? But from luke, it has additional info.


Luk 19:20-23
(20) And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
(21) For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
(22) And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
(23) Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?


The claim was that He was a "hard man"(in matthew) , but no God is good. The servant said that of him self and the Lord responded: "And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:"

Out of his own mouth - because it was his heart that was hard and not his Lord's. And he was only right about the reaping, he thought that Lord was an "austere man".
That's why he didnt take the money into bank because he thought Lord would not accept it and he was afraid.
So it seems to me this person wasnt really Lord's servant at the first place and he knew Him not.

I saw these verses in a wrong way first but I now know it was just the hardness of my own heart , not to see how good and loving our heavenly Father is.

------------------
Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] (Contact) - Truedisciple (mp3)

[This message has been edited by jari (edited August 28, 2007).]

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
quote:
Originally posted by jari:
Notice how the people in those verses come to Jesus saying, as the first thing, that they have [b]works? They are assuming God to let them in heaven because they have done something in the name of Jesus. Where they are wrong because it's grace alone not works (Eph 2:8-9).
They were workers of iniquity because they worked in self rightneusness and not rightneusness that comes from faith in Jesus Christ.
So the right attidute for the last day is more like:
[/B]

That's pretty much the point I was attempting to make, that a task performed without complete and total submission to God's will could lead to a reliance on your works as justification, as opposed to the grace that allowed you to accomplish the works themselves. Sorry if I gave the impression of the other, that wasn't my intention. When I said righteous life I meant righteous as in submitted to God's will and purpose. The self-righteousness that spring from being used for works like that without right living and submission to God's will and power is the danger I was attempting to allude to.

Kirk: I'd say it could be very dangerous. To move even a little forward under the illusion of your own strength or righteousness has the potential to be very destuctive. As for the whole thing about the rapture, I'm not entirely sure where you got that but Clint already touched on that anyway. The danger I'm attempting to address is inspiring people to "do" miracles because they somehow view it as their personal (not God empowered) right or as some kind of power that comes from themselves somewhere. I know that is most likely not what you are referring to, but I'm mentioning it as a possibility of what can happen. There has never been one time in my life where I've moved forward in God that I wasn't tempted to stop and give myself a small pat on the back, to think that I'd done a good job, that I had discovered God's truth and that God was using me. The problem comes with all the refrences to self. In the life of a Christian there is are no such words as I, me, mine, or I'll; they have no place in a being who is truly crucified with Christ and no longer lives. Do I dream of being used by God to work miracles and do awesome stuff for him? Of course, I don't think there are very many people here who don't to some extent, but my focus is changing such that I hope that if He chooses to do that, it will be to me the most surrenderful, unselfish, un-me-involved act, that it won't matter how good a Christian I am, or what kinds of things He's using me to do any longer, not even how close my walk is with Him, it will be Him, all him, and that dreadful 'I' will be removed forever from the lips of the God's creation that used to go by the name of Zach. That's the highest ideal my spirit can hope for, it's what I'm starting to pray God will do to me and my heart each day, a little further, a little deeper, a little less of the 'me' in my life. Because God is God and I'm not, and apart from Him I can do nothing at all, and I certainly can't do anything that will ever be meaningful to His kingdom or have any kind of meaningful eternal ramifications whatsoever. I suppose I'm trying to view my life less as a "cooperation" with Jesus, as you put it, to use my talents, and more as an unconditional surrender to return to Him everything that was really His to begin with.

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The time for speaking comes rarely, the time for being never departs.
George Macdonald

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
quote:
Originally posted by Ereon:
That's pretty much the point I was attempting to make, that a task performed without complete and total submission to God's will could lead to a reliance on your works as justification, as opposed to the grace that allowed you to accomplish the works themselves. Sorry if I gave the impression of the other, that wasn't my intention. When I said righteous life I meant righteous as in submitted to God's will and purpose. The self-righteousness that spring from being used for works like that without right living and submission to God's will and power is the danger I was attempting to allude to.

Aah, yes just a misunderstanding there.

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Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] (Contact) - Truedisciple (mp3)

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
quote:
The problem comes with all the refrences to self. In the life of a Christian there is are no such words as I, me, mine, or I'll; they have no place in a being who is truly crucified with Christ

Your comments strike me as a dangerous source of potential error because of the similarity they have with eastern religions popular in the 1960's. God wants a humanity processed into diamond and annealed with the other believers according to the symbols of the New Jerusalem and Ark of the Covanent. So the self must be changed, not eliminated. If there is any nature of Satan in your self that must be cast out or fasted out or crossed out but you yourself must be transformed into something suitable for beholding and reflecting God's light.

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Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
Your comments strike me as a dangerous source of potential error because of the similarity they have with eastern religions popular in the 1960's. God wants a humanity processed into diamond and annealed with the other believers according to the symbols of the New Jerusalem and Ark of the Covanent. So the self must be changed, not eliminated. If there is any nature of Satan in your self that must be cast out or fasted out or crossed out but you yourself must be transformed into something suitable for beholding and reflecting God's light.

I'm inclined to agree with you, in fact I think it's possible that we may be approaching a similar idea from different angles. Throughout scripture refrences are constantly made to the imperfection of our stained humanity, even in the lives of those who were the greatest heroes of faith there was sin and, when there was not sin there was imperfection (withholding good that was within your power or window of opportunity to accomplish) and even when both of the former were present, there would always, due to human nature and human failings, be some kind of deviation from God's will. I don't see, scripturally, anything that the self is to be changed, in the sense that it's remolded or reformed into something else, all I see is complete integration into the body of Christ. A finger does not think of itself as a finger, nor a foot an foot, they have no mind with which to comprehend their own existence because they are one with the whole body, they draw their identity and their since of self from the head, which can recognze the fingers, and give them knowledge of other parts of the body, and some sense of seperation, and yet keep the body as one whole entity. I see the Body of Christ ultimately operating in the same way. Until a Christian truly catches the revelation that he or she is nothing but a branch, an extension of the vine, and nothing more, there will always be room for pride, self-righteousness, and everything else human. It's our humanity that makes us weak and causes us to stumble (just check with Paul on that one, or look into the life of David, or just about anyone else you please who's lived a godly life in the last 10,000 years). You can't redeem humanity in the sense of the body, you can only destroy it, crucify it, beat it, and deny it. You can't make peace with your flesh, there are only two states, submitting to it, or making it submit, and the making it submit part is impossible to eternally maintain. That's why it talks about in Revelation of us recieving new bodies, it's because our old ones cannot be redeemed. Everything that is against Christ, that is against his will and his words is in your humanity, your DNA, your mind, will, emotions, and instincts, they all revolt against Jesus, and I submit to you that all of us are entirely and completely unredeemable, and that until such time as we're called to a new life with a new being, we need constant forgiveness and grace, just to accomplish anything in the service of our Lord.

I do not see where the idea of self has any place in the true Body of Christ scripturally. The idea of self, according to what I've read at least and the way I've interpreted it, is nothing but rotting, stinking, imperfect flesh, whatever the new ways we might come up with to dress it up or conceal it. The only way to live a life for Christ and for His glory is to bare the rotting, ugly parts of our "self" nature to Him, open the stinking cesspool, and let Him drench it with His grace. The human self isn't something to be refined or hardened, it's a hindrance that needs to be cowed and/or avoided so that we can unify with Christ as a body, away from the spiritually destructive ideas of self and fully in the instruction and guidance of God's will and instruction, as willing and obiedeant parts of His Body.

There's a good possibility that I'm wrong about this but I don't think I am, though I might be presenting my ideas a bit more extremely than they really are. I'm not out to make anybody a monk and tell you you've got to become a super-spiritual zombie, but I see the evil that's inside me, I've faced it, and I know what it can do to me, and I'm deathly afraid of what it can do to other people if I choose to release it. The way I see it it all boils down to if you try to keep your life (your sense of self, your desires, your identity the way you see it) then you're going to lose it, but if you're willing to lose your life, then then you'll find a whole new one waiting for you, one that more abundant and full than anything your old sense of self could have imagined.

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The time for speaking comes rarely, the time for being never departs.
George Macdonald

[This message has been edited by Ereon (edited August 28, 2007).]

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
I know of a pastor who focussed on the self as you are doing for years and I think he lost his ministry as a result. The problem is self isn't Jesus so the more you deny yourself, the more you are building yourself up, much like a snake eating its own tail.

One thing to remember is you can only deny yourself when you are exchanging it for something of Jesus, otherwise whatever you do or write is for your self.

Jesus said to humble yourself as a child [in his hands] to be greatest in the kingdom. Remember that is the second component in the best task available today which is building the manchild. Be like a little child, open pure hearted willing to be led by Jesus and grow toward Him in every way.

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Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

Calin

Member

Posts: 358
From: Moldova
Registered: 12-04-2006
I'm on the same stance with ssquared,jestermax, clint and a few others. Our aim should always be to serve the Lord and expand the Kingdom however I don't think we should abandon 'conventional thinking' all together.

In 1 Thessalonians 4:11 Paul exhorts the Christians to work with their hands. Now if we must work that means we can't stay in prayer 24 hours a day (some might be called to do that but I don't think all of us have that call), so we must work and also sleep and eat. There are still some things we have to do even tough we are Christians.
Now if you have to work you must do it with diligence and do it in such a way as to make it bring you money. That's what work mean: produce something for money. If you make Christian games you have to use the same programming languages, techniques and even marketing strategies Non-Christian games use.
You don't forget about the Lord while doing all these things but you have to use some portion of conventional wisdom while you live on Earth.


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Nanostorm: Machine Uprise

[This message has been edited by Calin (edited August 29, 2007).]

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
quote:
Now if we must work that means we can't stay in prayer 24 hours a day (some might be called to do that but I don't think all of us have that call), so we must work and also sleep and eat. There are still some things we have to do even tough we are Christians.

Jesus said to pray always and Paul said to pray unceasingly. As they define the top and bottom of the kingdom of heaven, it's fair to say anyone who is not praying all the time is not in the kingdom of heaven and not obeying Jesus therefore cannot be considered a practicing Christian even if they were once saved by believing in Him.

> I'm on the same stance with ssquared,jestermax, clint and a few others.

It's both interesting and somewhat sad that the small affilation you've identified may (I'll let them speak for themselves) agree with you in not wanting to attempt one of the minimal standards of being a practicing Christian, which is praying always.

You have a body, soul, and spirit. You have the ability to multi-task. You can do roughly seven things at once. (Phychologists estimate 4 to 9 threads are being processed in your mind at any one time.) The requirement to be a standard Christian is at least one of those threads be prayer. You can pray while you eat, even while you are moving your mouth to chew. You don't have to be praying aloud while you eat. And you can pray while working by multi-tasking -- devoting part of your inner resources to prayer while other resources work for evil money. Having a goal to leave the world of money by growing in prayer to do miracles like Jesus did which make money obsolete would be helpful.

Praying while asleep is something I haven't mastered yet but I think I've accomplished it by going to sleep in prayer and waking spontaneously praying. Perhaps someone has a better experience to share on that.

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Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

Calin

Member

Posts: 358
From: Moldova
Registered: 12-04-2006
You can embrace the 'look from above' if you like to, I consider you haven't addressed my main point though which is that Christian game development , for the most part, is subject to the same rules as Non-Christian game development.

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Nanostorm: Machine Uprise

[This message has been edited by Calin (edited August 29, 2007).]

samw3

Member

Posts: 542
From: Toccoa, GA, USA
Registered: 08-15-2006
Well said.

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Sam Washburn

Check out my CCN SpeedGame 2 Blog

SSquared

Member

Posts: 654
From: Pacific Northwest
Registered: 03-22-2005
quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
Praying while asleep is something I haven't mastered yet but I think I've accomplished it by going to sleep in prayer and waking spontaneously praying. Perhaps someone has a better experience to share on that.

I do have some personal experience in unceasing prayer, but I think it derails from the topic of "what is a Christian game", so I don't think it needs to be discussed here. Perhaps it can be discussed in a different thread.

Also, I am a little confused as to why you made a statement regarding me and my colleagues in suggesting we do not want "to attempt one of the minimal standards of being a practicing Christian, which is praying always."

As a Christian, I'm sure you recognize everyone is an individual and has their own individual way Christ speaks to them. I am motivated by worship music. My wife is motivated by the words in contemporary Christian music. Neither of us really care for the other style of music and yet our outcome of worship and praise is the same. Likewise with games.

We each have special abilities and special callings and special gifts. If we use them as the Holy Spirit directs us, well, we will have a game which glorifies God. It can be filled with bible verses, prayer, worship, or it can be a simple message of hope or freedom.

What it sounds like you are saying is that God can only inspire us to have games fully focused on Christian theology and teaching. If that is true, what are your thoughts on a game like Eternal War? This game takes you into the mind of a suicidal teen as you battle your way past the demons haunting the person's mind. There are several accounts of this game being a catalyst to draw people to a hope as they may have dealt with the same subject matter in the game. That hope for some, turned into eternal life with Jesus as they ended up accepting Him as their Savior. I certainly don't think the game turned them to Christ, but it was clearly a catalyst or motivation towards that end. What are your thougts on this?

Matt Langley
Member

Posts: 247
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-31-2006
quote:
To beat the dead horse once more...

Mat's claim that it is logical for a documentation engineer to know programming is not necessarily true. I worked for a contractor to a government agency who hired another contractor having documentation people who were not programmers at all, more like secretaries. Comparing the two situations, I think it's based on the customers -- the government wanted documentors to interface between secretary level users and programmers but your employer needs documenation to interface between programmer level users and programmers, making it necessary to have a higher level of documentors. Thus before encountering Mat's arguments I assumed all full-time documentors were secretary types.


I responded to the above quote in this thread. Though I simply responded to your question and you claimed it was beating a dead horse I felt I shouldn't de-rail this thread so I started one with a specific topic and posted my response there. Feel free to contribute.

quote:
My dad apparently was saved by watching Billy Graham on TV. I don't know God's mind on this but it would seem such a thing might happen with an equally good presentation by game media. That should be a Christian Game Developer's goal at minimum. A higher level of Bible study to completely understand the new pentateuch should be another goal.

I disagree based on a few points:

1) During that time people still weren't completely spurned off by televangilists. Currently there have been so many, as well as so many scams that pretend to be true evangelists that the current concept of this presentation is very much different than at that time. Also, even if you do choose to take that approach then you are going to only reach to people that would appeal towards that sort of thing. If all your efforts are done in the same manner you aren't spreading your message enough. Just because one way works for certain type of people it doesn't mean others can't spread the message in a different way.

2) Evangalizing is simply one aspect of what media can be targeted for. Not every single good Christian book, tv program, movie, game, etc is meant to engalize. Some are meant to educate, to inform. Others are meant to inspire and make one think about their faith in a different way. Never has there just been one style of successful media so I think your concept in that statement is flawed. Sure it may be one effective way (which is still yet to be proven) of presenting such a thing in a game, but there is more than one way to communicate with people. Jesus seemed to use a miriad of communication methods with different people.

3) I never was a fan of Billy G. My dad was as well. The way he presented his message never appealed to me, including after becoming saved in Christ. This just reinforces to me that not everyone should focus on one way of presenting.


quote:
Just because anyone has an opinion on what the manchild is doesn't mean they are correct or even are trying to be. I recently received a reply from the pastor recommended by Eric "superman" on gameACE and the pastor followed his idea supporting it with a "probably" as in if it referred to the church it would "probably" be female. How can people use such illogic professionally?

You said it... "Just because anyone has an opinion on what the manchild is doesn't mean they are correct or even are trying to be." Just because you claim to know the truth it doesn't make it the truth. Unless you in fact are the Lord and can absolutely claim such things.


quote:
I guess logic isn't a requirement of law just like truth isn't.

To counter this, I guess being respectful to your brothers and sisters in Christ isn't a law either?

"Do to others as you would have them do to you" (Luke 6:31).

Apparently if you are following this rule you like to be demeaned and insulted?


quote:
I would hope Christian game developers also being programmers have a higher standard of what really works over a mere opinion they might voice.

A very good point. As such I would hope you would have a higher standard of what really works over a mere opinion you might voice. Billy G. didn't appeal to me as well as many others out there. So maybe there may be others ways to reach those people.

quote:
You all shouldn't continue being afraid of growing from being social Christians to being spiritual Christians.

Who ever said they weren't spiritual Christians? How do you know we aren't. What are you making this assumption on?

Matthew 7:1-2
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

So in judging you the way you have judged us, you should not continue being afraid of growing from being a prideful and self-centered Christian to being a spritual Christian. Being a Christian is about Christ and his wisdom and knowledge, not about you proclaiming you know more than others while turning them away from you. Considering some of your comments are very harsh and deter people from you maybe you should consider that as not being the right way to spread what you consider the truth.

If that statement is insulting to you then I apologize, though it's meant to reflect that we all could refer to you like you refer to us, though we usually try to hold ourselves to a higher standard of understanding and fellowship.


quote:
So I strongly suggest getting much more serious about Jesus than your pastor and anyone else you know.

Again assumptions about people. It seems you have a thing with pastors. Do you not like pastors in general? I undertand that you think many of them are about self-interests, about tooting their own horn and making themselves seem powerful and wise... but then again thats very much how I see you...

quote:
Only Jesus can guide us into a life where we don't make serious mistakes. But we must actively cooperate with Him to do His will. Pay attention, multiply your talents, and if you've received His answer enabling you to make games, do the work in prayer and study to make them teach what He wants them to teach.

Being humans it's unavoidable that we will make mistakes. Serious is simply a subjective term. Serious to me may be non-serious to you. If you spoke the way you speak to us to someone who is new in Christ and you scared them away that would be serious to me, but maybe not to you. As for the rest of that statement. Again what are you basing this assumption on. How do you know the person you are talking to doesn't already do that. Did you ask? I have yet to see you ask before you make assumptions. Are you all knowing?


quote:
I know of a pastor who focussed on the self as you are doing for years and I think he lost his ministry as a result.

Not a very useful comment. No offense meant, just simply not useful. For one, you use a single sample case to justify a point. I know many people who share a similiar attitude as you and I've seen them stumble, fall, and turn away many would-be Christians due to their fanaticism. Do I present this data to you, no... it proves nothing. On top of that you "think he lost his ministry as a result". There are a lot of assumptions laced in those few words... for one you don't know the result for sure, secondly if you don't know the result for sure it's highly doubtful you know any other issues that may have caused this to come about, not just your perspective on what he did wrong. Again, intersting, though not very useful.

quote:
Jesus said to humble yourself as a child [in his hands] to be greatest in the kingdom.

hmmm...

Matthew 7:305
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

You seem far from humble, maybe you should reavaluate that scripture. I won't comment on it further since currently I am having issues being humble in responding to yours. I can at least identify them though.


quote:
Praying while asleep is something I haven't mastered yet but I think I've accomplished it by going to sleep in prayer and waking spontaneously praying. Perhaps someone has a better experience to share on that.

What is the point of following a command literally when you have no meaning behind it. To pray is to keep in communication with the Lord. Well when someone visits and leaves and tells you to "always keep in touch" they don't mean to be on the phone with them 24 hours a day. Your approach to praying is very un-inspiring.

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Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
Christian game development does not need to be the same as secular game development, except in some of the software used in computer games or arts and crafts papers and glue used in board games.

In my opinion, if it's not producing Christian fruit, it's not a Christian game. Is any fruitless game developed by Christians a Christian game? Well if the developers almost never follow Jesus Christ by not praying always during the development, I think not.

I've not played Eternal War. If it turns people to Jesus, then it's producing Christian fruit. Lots of people deal with demons and some actually know it. Both Morgan Freeman and Dustin Hoffman have acknowledged the existence of demons on TV interviews. The relationship with Jesus might be a bit shaky as the verse in an earlier post about not getting into heaven by casting out demons indicates, but if people are getting saved eventually, I wouldn't ban it.

Matt you are consistently judgemental. I think your skill would be better put to use helping to judge the SpeedGame contest instead of trying to outdo someone who can write circles around you if sufficiently motivated. Your dispute with Billy Graham doesn't detract from my point that such a successful presentation, now often replayed on TBN, should be the minimum a Christian game developer should try for. I didn't say it couldn't be done better, I did write MINIMUM.

> You said it... "Just because anyone has an opinion on what the manchild is doesn't mean they are correct or even are trying to be."

Yes I said it by writing it and now I hereby write that it applies to you Matt, not me. You are not trying. Be a Christian Matt.

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Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

Matt Langley
Member

Posts: 247
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-31-2006
Well I took my time to respond to multiple comments of yours, yet you avoid responding to them further. If you want to have a discussion with a person and they take the time to type up responses to you it is only respectful to respond in kind. Then again I'm not sure you want a discussion.

quote:
Christian game development does not need to be the same as secular game development, except in some of the software used in computer games or arts and crafts papers and glue used in board games.

I agree it doesn't 'need' to be. Though I don't see why you wouldn't learn from the mistakes of the secular industry. If you are making a Christian game then you are in fact make a game just like any other game developer. Your goal and content might be different but you are still making a game. The same design principles do in fact apply. That said Indie game prove that there are new and innovative ways to appeal towards people and get them intersted and sustaining such in your game. So I find some of your comments accurate. Though what I can't agree with is that making a game learning what others have in the secular industry can't aid us in the Christian game dev industry.

quote:
In my opinion, if it's not producing Christian fruit, it's not a Christian game. Is any fruitless game developed by Christians a Christian game? Well if the developers almost never follow Jesus Christ by not praying always during the development, I think not.

I see that as your opinion and I agree with that. With that said just because you think something isn't producing Christian fruit doesn't mean it isn't. I may deem something as producing Christian fruit and you may deem it isn't, while Clint may disagree with us both... just because it's your opinion it doesn't make it an absolute truth.


quote:
Matt you are consistently judgemental.

You are correct... but I am simply:

"with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

You have been immensely and still continue to be immensely judgement of me and others. You make claims based on false assumptions that you really don't know about us. You continually tell us to not listen to our pastor, which I find funny since most of us haven't event mentioned our "pastor" to you. So I am simply return the favor you have given and hopefully you can see what it's like being on the other end of a conversation with you.

quote:
I think your skill would be better put to use helping to judge the SpeedGame contest instead of trying to outdo someone who can write circles around you if sufficiently motivated.

Prideful are we? For one I would highly doubt you can write circles around me. You still have yet to respond to most of my comments, while I have to yours. Secondly, why do you keep trying to lift yourself above me. Does it empower you? Does it make you feel like you have control, like you know more than me? I am honestly curious.

quote:
Your dispute with Billy Graham doesn't detract from my point that such a successful presentation, now often replayed on TBN, should be the minimum a Christian game developer should try for. I didn't say it couldn't be done better, I did write MINIMUM.

Yes, I understood your comment on minimum. What I was saying was I don't think people have to use that as a minimum standard, that things can be DIFFERENT. Not everything can be compared against the same scale. Many Christian messages I hear aren't even on a scale anywhere with Billy G, they simply take a different approach.

quote:
> You said it... "Just because anyone has an opinion on what the manchild is doesn't mean they are correct or even are trying to be."

Yes I said it by writing it and now I hereby write that it applies to you Matt, not me. You are not trying. Be a Christian Matt.


So does all of your advice only apply to others and not yourself?

Also how do you have the right to imply I'm not being a Christian? Are you the Lord, can you see in my soul. How can you claim I am not trying? I can claim you are not trying, that you in fact have such a superior attitude that I question whether or not you truly know the Love and Compassion of Jesus. I do not have the right to state that as fact though, since I am not the Lord and do not know.

You have some great opinions and comments, but you mix them with a very prideful and superior attitude. You have continually insulted multiple others, and countless pastors, along the way. Is that truly the way of Jesus? Maybe you should look at yourself first, the plank in your eye, before you look at the speck in mine. I definitely know I should, I am, and I may be out of line making these comments, but in retrospect to your continual judgemental attitude and demeaning I feel this needs to be said.

If you want to stop insulting and demeaning me and actually converse about what you've said, how I've responded, and be civilized and respectful in the process I'd be more than happy to partake. If, however, ever time someone disagrees with you, you then end with an attempt to demean and lower them and empower yourself then I will not continue.

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Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
> If you want to ... actually converse

If you want to show how you are going to adopt the truth which I've presented on the manchild and devote your life to work to fulfill that prophecy (whether by game development or beyond), I encourage you to do so.

If you want to do anything less including mention your poor behavior on the locked thread(s) and so far on this one, I suggest you not continue posting until after spending a lot more time pursuing God.

To repeat, the Rev. 12 woman is the end-time church and her manchild is the Rev. 2-3 overcomers who are the raptured part of the end-time church. Proofs include the two attributes of the manchild are rewards to the overcomers, the rod of iron in Rev. 2:26-27 and sitting with Jesus on His throne in Rev. 3:21. Also, the woman after delivering the manchild is left behind in Rev. 12:6. Since by the typology of Esther and her son Darius who rebuilt Jerusalem, the manchild's main job after the tribulation is to build the New Jerusalem which is the only thing which makes it from this heaven and earth to the new heaven and earth in Rev. 21, that makes the manchild the very most important project of all in the whole world to work on at this time.

That is the truth, regardless of your opinion(s) or any pastor's or scholar's attempt to refute it, it stands -- you cannot remain logically truthful but only adopt strategies of Satan if you try refuting it. Therefore you must accept, love, and build on it if you wish to serve Jesus in this age. Perhaps if you build wisely on it, you might experience a miracle like the youngster who played my game.

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Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

Matt Langley
Member

Posts: 247
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-31-2006
quote:
If you want to show how you are going to adopt the truth which I've presented on the manchild and devote your life to work to fulfill that prophecy (whether by game development or beyond), I encourage you to do so.

What you claim as the truth. Simply because you claim it does not make it true. You'll probably ignore this like my previous comments, but:

Romans 3:23
or all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

So you are not perfect. Logically this would mean we must accept there is at least the smallest possibility (to me maybe not that small) you are incorrect in your concept of the truth. You are not accepting that possibility, hence you defy your own attempts at logic.

Plus how is this responding to my comments in the manner I responded to yours. That is what a conversation typically entails? It's not completely one sided. You don't make points, I respond to them, then you make more points without responding to mine. Thats beyond selfish and leaves you talking for the only purpose of hearing your own voice (or in this case seeing your own text).

Why would I partake in a conversation with someone who only talks to themself lol.

quote:
If you want to do anything less including mention your poor behavior on the locked thread(s) and so far on this one, I suggest you not continue posting until after spending a lot more time pursuing God.

I would say the same to you. Maybe treat your brothers and sisters in Christ with respect. That is what Jesus taught, yet you seem to ignore that completely.


quote:
That is the truth, regardless of your opinion(s) or any pastor's or scholar's attempt to refute it, it stands

No it isn't. It is simply your interpretation of the truth. To say it is an absolute truth and everyone else but you is wrong is to proclaim you are perfect... Romans 3:23 clearly states otherwise.

quote:
Perhaps if you build wisely on it, you might experience a miracle like the youngster who played my game.

I have not built my life upon that and I have experienced miracles. A miracle of the Lord very much saved my life and turned me away from a very bad path.

I dislike your treatment of others and me. I find you are offensive, rude, and inconsiderate of others. Very much not Christ like. Is that the image you want to portray, if so then you are succeeding.

You still are not conversing with hardly anything I took the time to make comments on. In that case I bid this conversation farewell. If you actually want to dicuss something I'm more than open to it. If you want to continue insulting others, and making assumptions then go for it. You even admited an assumption of yours of me was incorrect, yet you still avoid admiting you were wrong. That sounds like a very serious issue that I think you honestly need to take a look at. You claim I'm being judgemental when you have made numerous judgements against me, one I've proven is incorrect. How hypocritical is that.

If you want to continue this branch of discussion feel free to start a new thread or e-mail me (mattl@garagegames). Though this is getting off topic.


------------------
Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

Super Angel Steve

Member

Posts: 212
From: Staten Island,Ny
Registered: 05-10-2006
As A Traditionalist, I Love the Secular Classics[mostly the 2d stuff..though I have nothing against the 3d games]. I will Not Get interested in Christian Games,until they make good ones.

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CCN's Resident Idea Man!

[This message has been edited by super angel steve (edited August 29, 2007).]

[This message has been edited by super angel steve (edited August 29, 2007).]

[This message has been edited by super angel steve (edited August 29, 2007).]

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
quote:
I will Not Get interested in Christian Games,until they make good ones.

I think that supports my point regarding games. Any Christian game developers got your ears on?

super angel steve,
I'd be interested in your opinion about my board game (sorry not computerized) at http://prayer_child.tripod.com/game.html

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Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

Super Angel Steve

Member

Posts: 212
From: Staten Island,Ny
Registered: 05-10-2006
quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
I think that supports my point regarding games. Any Christian game developers got your ears on?

super angel steve,
I'd be interested in your opinion about my board game (sorry not computerized) at http://prayer_child.tripod.com/game.html


Hey,Not Bad. I Like it.

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CCN's Resident Idea Man!

Mene-Mene

Member

Posts: 1398
From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA
Registered: 10-23-2006
Kirk about your game, no offense, but it seems to cause strife among homes when others judge how much you mean it, when you say, "I love the Lord Jesus Christ." or whatever. Original though, and for what you believe in, its good, I just don't agree with you.

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MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto
I reserve the full right to change my views/theories at any time.

Calin

Member

Posts: 358
From: Moldova
Registered: 12-04-2006
quote:
never follow Jesus Christ by not praying always during the development

Are you saying that since I don't 'pray always' I don't follow Jesus?
If that's not what you intended to say what was the message you wanted to put forward when you wrote those things?

quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
Christian game development does not need to be the same as secular game development

Are you proposing a new game production model?

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Nanostorm: Machine Uprise

[This message has been edited by Calin (edited August 30, 2007).]

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:

In my opinion, if it's not producing Christian fruit, it's not a Christian game.

I think this is good definition for a Christian game in my opinion. I did not have thought it that way before. But we must remember that we may not always know how much fruit is being procuded.

quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:

Is any fruitless game developed by Christians a Christian game? Well if the developers almost never follow Jesus Christ by not praying always during the development, I think not.


I dont think it goes exactly like that. But the bottom line to remember is that we are branches in the tree which is Jesus. And like Lord taught no one can bear fruit by it self. So in that sense I agree with you.

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Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] (Contact) - Truedisciple (mp3)

[This message has been edited by jari (edited August 30, 2007).]

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
quote:
Originally posted by jari:

Originally posted by Kirk:
In my opinion, if it's not producing Christian fruit, it's not a Christian game.

I think this is good definition for a Christian game in my opinion. I did not have thought it that way before. But we must remember that we may not always know how much fruit is being procuded.



I think I would agree that I like many things about Kirk's definition here.

I suppose the next question, is as to what fruits are "valid"?

In helping out with youth group planning at church, the perennial question is "how much do we teach, and how much do we just try to have fun and build fellowship and friendships?"

I think I've really grown to appreciate the value of friendships built through games, and it's one of the reasons why I support having LAN parties at church, even of games that are "violent" (such as Unreal Tournament).

So even though Unreal Tournament is a game made by a "secular" company, I feel we are using it in a "Christian" way, to produce the fruit of fellowship in accordance with Christianity.

So that's one of the reasons why I support games being focused on fun and fellowship -- the potential to make games to bring people together is just really attractive to me, and one of the big reasons why I'm so interested in making a multiplayer game soon.

--clint

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited August 30, 2007).]

samw3

Member

Posts: 542
From: Toccoa, GA, USA
Registered: 08-15-2006
That is a good point.

quote:
Originally posted by HanClinto:
I suppose the next question, is as to what fruits are "valid"?

I would say any Christian fruit is valid. Fruit being defined as an outcome or product of an endeavor. And Christian fruit being any outcome or product that falls in line with the attributes of God.

Pedant that I am, since we are called to direct our efforts towards non-Christians as well, I would offer to extend Kirk's definition to include a more generic "Spiritual fruit"; meaning outcomes and/or products of an endeavor that direct a person who may not be Christian towards God. In other words, activities that nurture the "baby-steps" of belief. (I'm not saying of course this is the only focus, just a focus to be included.)

------------------
Sam Washburn

Check out my CCN SpeedGame 2 Blog

Calin

Member

Posts: 358
From: Moldova
Registered: 12-04-2006
Just to clarify, I'm all for games that "inspire spiritual action". However I fail to see the 'constructive' side of your post. It seems that you're set on fighting someone or something without showing how we can reach the stature that will allow us to make games that inspire spiritual action.

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Nanostorm: Machine Uprise

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
While thinking about what is fruit, let's keep in mind that no bad tree can bear a good fruit and no good tree can bear bad fruit. So in Jesus we produce good fruits only. And we grow in Christ by His word and in prayer as part of Him.

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Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] (Contact) - Truedisciple (mp3)

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
quote:
Calin wrote:
Just to clarify, I'm all for games that "inspire spiritual action". However I fail to see the 'constructive' side of your post. It seems that you're set on fighting someone or something without showing how we can reach the stature that will allow us to make games that inspire spiritual action.

There are little hints all through this thread. Obey Jesus more is a great one. Write on Bible ideas more -- in fact practice writing your own one paragraph or page Bible studies on topics Jesus found important to mention. Preach the gospel out where you live and get inspired by getting someone saved. Pray more on all kinds of topics -- as you see more prayers answered you'll get more interested in doing it. Be more active in the Christian realm and you will grow more stature.

The problem with churches is they are too much social clubs like Clint's LAN parties, doing mighty works in Jesus' name without Jesus' permission, presence, and blessing. They "fellowship" but is Jesus the topic? Get Jesus involved and He will be your stature.

A Scientific American article online says a million dollar Templeton study had some churches pray for people in a hospital and proved their prayers didn't heal. The story doesn't mention what churches or if they treated prayer as the most important activity to contact God, or if they enjoy God's love and presence or merely read the Bible as a good philosophy book. Their failure shows there is a great need for communicating (by games and other media) things that will "inspire spiritual action" into the spiritually inactive churches.

Trinity Broadcasting used to be so bad that I wrote Paul Crouch saying if an auditor observed TBN programming I'd bet he wouldn't find the gospel preached even once a week. Thereafter they changed the format a little and started using Billy Graham crusades and more movies. Take action to inject more Christ into your world -- you may never get the credit in this life but Jesus may reward you on His judgment day.

------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
Hey Kirk,

Just to clarify:

quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
The problem with churches is they are too much social clubs like Clint's LAN parties, doing mighty works in Jesus' name without Jesus' permission, presence, and blessing. They "fellowship" but is Jesus the topic? Get Jesus involved and He will be your stature.

Our church is certainly nothing like our LAN parties. I was talking about LAN parties as something to augment the church fellowship -- not a complete methodology. I was talking about activities outside of the standard prescribed order of worship in the sabbath service.

Just because a potluck is focused on food doesn't mean that it can't be a *Christian* potluck -- feasts were prescribed in the O.T. as a way to celebrate together.

It's not like our activities are devoid of spiritual content -- we often close our games of ultimate frisbee games in prayer, and at our LAN parties we have talked about how Christ's lordship over our lives extends to our video game playing.

It's just that friendship and the edification of spiritual fellowship is the goal rather than explicit theological education.

I know people still take issue with this -- we struggle with how much explicit teaching we should have. I'm still pretty convinced that activities focusing on friendship, fellowship, and fun are quite worthy ways for groups of believers (and even unbelievers) to spend their time.

In Christ,
clint

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited August 30, 2007).]

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
I agree with Clint. Why does our body posess the ability to enjoy things like food, laughter, companionship, and talking if there isn't a purpose for them. If it's the ultimate goal of Christianity to become a Jesus Stoic, lay aside all emotion and pleasure, and focus solely on robotically following stuff that's written down in the Bible then we're throwing these gifts away and rendering them useless. Pleasure has a purpose, that purpose can be driven awry and used against us, but it does have a purpose. I don't see anything in scripture that tells us to be stoics, lay aside our humanity, and reduce the wonder of human life to a robotic algorithim of laws and regulations, in fact there's alot in there against stuff like that if I'm not mistaken.

I like what Clint is saying about fellowship. You grow together by A) Having good times together, and B) Having bad times together. It's all part of unity, friendship, and of one person sharpening another. If all we do is get together to bandy fancy religious chatter and theology around then we're wasting the humanly natural, God given gifts that allow us to socialize, bond together as a single minded unit, and build each other up while helping each other renew our minds in the process.

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The time for speaking comes rarely, the time for being never departs.
George Macdonald

[This message has been edited by Ereon (edited August 30, 2007).]

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
In my opinion, the only difference between many in this group and a pack of heathens is being nominally Christian. That means Christian in name. So at least some listen while others don't care or have a clue. As it is written, for the time that has passed, you should all be Bible teachers but are now needing the beginning milk of the Word.

Consider they say 80% of the USA is Christian -- some act really secular in public and will only admit to belief in private. Consider if all 80% of the USA really obeyed Jesus Christ and His gospel of the Kingdom in Mat. 10:7-8 then 4 out of 5 people you meet would be healers and there would be no need for hospitals and paid medicine.

Now in such a healthy society, don't you think you'd enjoy everything you do more than you do now? When you couple with your wives, you'd never have erectile dysfunction and she'd never have a headache -- and if it did happen you could get it healed instantly. Every little ache and pain would be gone. When you went out to any kind of activity like riding a horse you wouldn't fear falling off and becoming paralyzed like Christopher Reeves because you'd have a healthier relationship with the environment and could get healed and raised from the dead if necessary.

Now do you want to work toward such a world by inspiring spiritual activity in every person who plays your games like I describe in my first post in this thread? Of course you should. But it looks like nobody is up to the stature required to deal with the Bible regarding the manchild which I presented to Matt above. Only one of you has expressed interest in growing that stature. The rest whine and moan about all sorts of lesser things when you should be able to interpret the Bible as good as any preacher or better, enough to discover for yourselves my interpretation is the correct one. And you should also be growing in love for God in the Spirit as well as Bible skills so you can actually heal as Jesus commands, which is another step beyond understanding and working with the written commands (which I am lacking talents in for having spent not enough time on application in the spiritual realm).

You've paid pastors to do it for you but they haven't done what you pay them for. You must take your own spiritual growth into your own hands and pursue God individually as well as with others if you expect to develop the stature needed to inspire others with the gospel.

If I can find or develop a group of Christians who are actually at the stature Jesus told us to be, do you think they will have as tough an audience as I've encountered here among people who are nominally Jesus' friends? The type of the manchild as Darius says the job of the manchild will be to build the New Jerusalem in heaven before it comes down onto the new earth. That implies a lot. Dead believers will have to be brought up from the stature their prostituted churches developed them to into the much greater stature of the manchild to become part of the bride worthy for Jesus. When complete, the manchild will be an equal part of the bride.

Now when you CCN folks die, will you have gained the stature to be worthy of being part of Jesus' bride or will you need to grow further? Will you treat your teachers there and then in heaven as you have me here? It seems most of you don't want to grow up in Christ. I can't come around to you individually and give you physical kicks in the butt like Tim did with his buddy at CGDC, nor can I receive them back as he did. And I'm not sure doing so would change any hearts and minds. What would? And don't tell me treating you like a youth pastor, coddling your worldliness with ski trips and LAN parties. What you all need is a more complete change of heart to obey the first commandment, to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. What would get you to do that?

------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

Mack

Administrator

Posts: 2779
From:
Registered: 01-20-2001
quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
I've not played Eternal War. If it turns people to Jesus, then it's producing Christian fruit. Lots of people deal with demons and some actually know it. Both Morgan Freeman and Dustin Hoffman have acknowledged the existence of demons on TV interviews. The relationship with Jesus might be a bit shaky as the verse in an earlier post about not getting into heaven by casting out demons indicates, but if people are getting saved eventually, I wouldn't ban it.

I can supply a copy if you like, just drop me an email. I can also include alot of the emails I recieve regarding the game. How it's helped people, brought people closer to Christ or to Christ. It's certainly not a traditional outreach tool but it's a tool none the less, one Gods used to reach people.

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
quote:

I've not played Eternal War. If it turns people to Jesus, then it's producing Christian fruit. Lots of people deal with demons and some actually know it. Both Morgan Freeman and Dustin Hoffman have acknowledged the existence of demons on TV interviews. The relationship with Jesus might be a bit shaky as the verse in an earlier post about not getting into heaven by casting out demons indicates, but if people are getting saved eventually, I wouldn't ban it.


i haven't read the whole thread but is JESUS in this game?? or a Christian? because if a game/movie has only demons then it's not helping people it'd destroying them just like the did in acts 3(i think) they would let you talk about anything even about the BIBLE but they won't let you talk about JESUS.

and if it in anyway promotes violence(or if the player is in anyway doing any violence in the game using any type of player) it's not imho a good game(unless the player is playing as an angel or a Christian working against demons).

but i might have misunderstood some of the stuff you guys said(since i haven't read everything).

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John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Mack

Administrator

Posts: 2779
From:
Registered: 01-20-2001
quote:
Originally posted by spade89:
[QUOTE]i haven't read the whole thread but is JESUS in this game?? or a Christian? because if a game/movie has only demons then it's not helping people it'd destroying them just like the did in acts 3(i think) they would let you talk about anything even about the BIBLE but they won't let you talk about JESUS.

and if it in anyway promotes violence(or if the player is in anyway doing any violence in the game using any type of player) it's not imho a good game(unless the player is playing as an angel or a Christian working against demons).


I'll respond to your questions but I don't want to turn this into an Eternal War thread. If you want further information on the game then feel free to drop me an email.

In the story of Eternal War a teen named John tries to kill himself. After a large drug stint (he's an addict) he's at the end of his rope. He tries to kill himself but before he pulls the trigger an Angel named Mike arrives.

Mike has been sent by God to minister and help John through his problems. During the talk a demon named Donovan manifests in John, Mike leaps into the demonic stronghold and fights off the legion of demons that are under Donovans control. Finally getting to Donovans lair Mike is exhausted, Mike is encouraged by God and after being strengthened defeats Donovon along with a small host of other Angels. John is free, Mike delivers the final hopeful message that Jesus loves John no matter what and the game ends.

The game doesnít encourage violence (it does use force to fight back the demons) but some people have told me that itís a bit dark and frightening. However I donít think fighting back a legion of demons would be a prance in snow whites vineyard.

On the Ďfruití side of things weíve gotten a lot of mail from people after the game was released. A lot of people have told me how itís strengthened their relationship with Christ. A school is using the game to teach kids about spiritual warfare along with readings from the Bible. Some of the more hairy stories are from ones from people who were involved in demonic cults who said that the game almost mirrored experiences theyíve had personally. They said the game was like an additional form of therapy along with strong Biblical backing, which I was REALLY not expecting. Following up on this for our next releases Iím going to include some well formed studies to help people facing the issues presented in the game.

The one story that hit me the most and still drives me to keep on doing this crazy development thing is a letter I got from a young kid. Itís really corny but it hit me pretty bad. He said after playing the game he realized how much God loved him and that God would love him unconditionally. The game is a big hit with kids and (for some reason) seniors, who send us the most mail we see. The game is old but we still see feedback on it to this day (been 5 years!).

If you have any more questions just drop me an email and Iíd be more than happy to answer them.

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
Perhaps it would help all of you to work on preaching the gospel in real life. Then you would find it more important and enjoyable (despite all persecutions) to preach the gospel in your games. Following tells of a little online gospel preaching I did in response to a BBC news story.

Subject: Truth on Iraqi Blogs

See story here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/6940384.stm

Then you may follow their links to blogs, some of which now have this
posted into their comments:

Anonymous said...

Everyone must convert from false Islam to true Christianity. To
see the difference simply put the Bible side by side with the Koran on
a table in front of you and read the New Pentateuch (Mt. Mk, Lk, Jn,
Rv which books contain most of the words of Jesus Christ) comparing it to the Koran. You'll find there is no comparison.

The Christian God is absolute spiritual perfection, and Jesus His
only begotten Son is absolute perfection in human form.

Allah, the one who cannot beget, is without life, an inferior idea
forced on you by a history of war which continues.

Change your hearts and minds to pursue Jesus and become absolutely perfect like He is. Pursuing Him is the reason the USA is a superior nation. Be smart, join the winning side now. Eventually the entire world will convert.

------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

Matt Langley
Member

Posts: 247
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-31-2006
quote:
Perhaps it would help all of you to work on preaching the gospel in real life.

You are assuming that we do not currently do so.

Many of us do spread the word of the gospel. I personally don't like your post. This is not an insult, simply a statement of my own view.

I really don't agree with

quote:
Change your hearts and minds to pursue Jesus and become absolutely perfect like He is. Pursuing Him is the reason the USA is a superior nation. Be smart, join the winning side now.

If you are in fact meaning that by following Jesus we will ever be perfect, that USA is a superior nation, and that joining the winning side is a "smart" action and a moral action.

Correct me if I'm wrong in evaluating your intention of those statements.

------------------
Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
> You are assuming that we do not currently do so.

And quite an accurate assumption it is, based on your posts to me.

> Many of us do spread the word of the gospel.

Prove it! Is there anything of the gospel in the latest speedgames? I've only evaluated the one by SSquared and offer that as an example of NOT preaching the gospel in a game. Sure one could shoehorn all kinds of ad >hoc analysis saying if someone were under fear of a crow attack the game might lead to thoughts of a higher purpose giving reason to endure the attack but not one reason for turning one's heart and mind to Jesus is shown in the few levels I played. And I think a crow attack is not reality or Biblically based anyway -- one prophet was fed by crows.

> I personally don't like your post. This is not an insult, simply a statement of my own view.

I personally don't like your wife. This is not an insult, simply a statement of my own view based on having no recollection of meeting her or seeing any post by her. But then I could be more charitable and state that I have no opinion instead of expressing my lack of information in the negative couldn't I? And in comparison, a reader might view my initial sentence in this paragraph as more insulting than stating I have no opinion. So are you typically one who fills his mind and documentation with insults and pretends they aren't?

Actually your post is anti-Christian defined by Jesus' warning against swine who will turn and rend you. I posted an exhortation to preach the gospel and gave an example. You responded by insulting my exhortation and gospel instead of building on them by presenting your own gospel message. Therefore it is reasonable to obey Jesus' words and think of you as a swine instead of a brother in Christ.

> I really don't agree with
1.>> Change your hearts and minds to pursue Jesus and become absolutely perfect like He is.
> If you are in fact meaning that by following Jesus we will ever be perfect
Your post proves you will not always be perfect. But then it also provides evidence of not following Jesus. So if you ever do actually follow Jesus then at that time, you will be perfect, until you instantaneously switch yourself back to swine mode. Possibly if you repent switching your heart and mind back to Jesus frequently and seriously enough, you will learn to abide in Him and thus be perfected.

2.>> Pursuing Him is the reason the USA is a superior nation.
> that USA is a superior nation
It is superior to any nation with a greater percentage of Moslem citizens than we have. And notice my primary audience in that message was Moslems.

3.>> Be smart, join the winning side now.
> and that joining the winning side is a "smart" action and a moral action.
Relative to Moslems who have already joined the winning side by moving here, a TV news report claimed most of them are enjoying $50K incomes and much more peace and security than they would get in Iraq. It seems by such divisive remarks, you Matthew have a deep rooted problem with the USA. Why don't you move to Iraq? Maybe being under constant threat of loss of life will motivate you to turn your heart and mind toward Jesus.

> Correct me if I'm wrong in evaluating your intention of those statements.

As you expressed in your post the mental state of being a swine, I do not believe you are capable of being corrected by anyone until you turn your heart and mind much closer to Jesus.

------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

zookey

Member

Posts: 1902
From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:

I personally don't like your wife.


Once again, people on a self imposed psudo religious high feel the can 'evangelize' to the world with jerk bully tactics (would use more harsh words, but what the hey...)----you are slamming other people because they don't make games that evangelize enough in your own personal opinion yet you claim to be this holier than thou person while acting like that----dude it is people like you that almost made me not be a Christian anymore---thank God I had the sense and knowledge to not hold Jesus and God accountable for human actions--but how many have been hurt by crap like that (not to mention having the gospel crammed down their throat at the same time) and turned from God because of a lack of understanding?

None of us are perfect, but I happen to think Matt is pretty decent and wouldn't have made that post unless he was truly offended by an immature comment.

What ticks me off more is so many Christians will praise Lord of the Rings and Narnia for being good God inspired fiction, yet if someone tried to write those today they would get blasted for not copying and pasting words like Jesus, Salvation, Sin and Holy in there X amount of times---all the while the world looks and sees an artist trying to reach a psudo religious quota and we wonder why they question Christianity's legitimacy! From the outside it looks phony when the focus is on pleasing your fellow man instead of following God first.

I don't mean to jump on a soapbox, but it gets irritating when discussions here degrade into flame wars because of man-made-religion.


Side rant--I hate it too when people call the USA the country of God--we are all God's people (all Christians)---and the only country that could claim that is Israel-----not to mention many of our 'Christian' founding fathers were involved in very unGodly things (Many were in Free Masons whom put man's ability to learn above God--basically claiming to be God through intellegence, and Ben Franklin flat out participated in a Satan-Worshipping orgy ceremony thing while acting as our ambassador to France---and he got offended when Thomas Jefferson wrote 'We find these truths to be sacred' in the Decleration of Independence and had him change it to 'We find these truths to be self evident')

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Super Angel Steve

Member

Posts: 212
From: Staten Island,Ny
Registered: 05-10-2006
Hey Yo what Happened to the "Christian Games vs. Clean Games" Discusion,Huh? For get about this Political Propaganda Crap and get back to the topic at hand.

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CCN's Resident Color Commentator!

Matt Langley
Member

Posts: 247
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-31-2006
quote:
I personally don't like your wife. This is not an insult, simply a statement of my own view based on having no recollection of meeting her or seeing any post by her.

Except I am responding directly to your post, so how does that statement have anything to do with mine? Please explain this to me.

I also stated a pure opinion, I don't like your post. Instead of taking it constructively you proceed to insult me with:

quote:
Actually your post is anti-Christian

quote:
As you expressed in your post the mental state of being a swine

quote:
you Matthew have a deep rooted problem with the USA

I really have tried communicating with you. It seems over e-mail we both agreed to attempt to be respectful with eachother rather than jumping to tones that obviously insult eachother. I was attempting to do so. I stated my opinion, stated I didn't mean it as an insult. I then re-quoted part of what I disagree with, asked if the way I interpreted was in fact the way you meant it, and asked you to correct me if I was wrong in evaluating your statement.

Are you truly determined to bash me at every turn? What does that prove.

If you want to discuss this like a civilized person I'd be more than happy to in a new thread or over e-mail. Participate like the rest of us do, create a thread with your statements and opinions and we can all carry on a discussion there.


@steve:

You are correct, I'm sorry I followed Kirk's lead on this segway.


On topic... I think Christian game developers need to learn the same lessons other game developers have already. A game is a game, whether it has Christian purpose and content. Learning how to develop a fun video game is a hard thing and something that takes a lot of development experience and a lot of learning from others. I see too many Christian game development companies completely dismiss this. They dismiss the secular games due to their content and don't learn the fundamental lessons they have.

The Christian game development industry could learn quite a bit from the Indie game development industry. The Indies have come a long way, from making cheap and fast games that don't appeal to many, to making some great casual games that are very fun, engaging, and appealing to many.

Whether a game is Christian or not it still is a game, the fun aspect must be there no-matter the message or content. Though many Christian devs are too stubborn to learn from the mistakes of others, especially of those that develop non-Christian games.

------------------
Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

SSquared

Member

Posts: 654
From: Pacific Northwest
Registered: 03-22-2005
Kirk, thanks for playing the game. The intent is meant as a kid's game where a parent may use the game as a catalyst to explain Jesus' teachings. For example, a child can relate to a lost toy (the lost lamb) and wanting to find it. A parent can explain the joy the Lord has when one person turns to Christ, just as the child may have joy in finding their lost toy. Each level has ways of using the parables as a way to bridge the topic of Christ and His Kingdom.

If you complete the game, the final lost lamb is found inside of a church. I felt this was a representation of the lost soul (the representaion of the parable lamb) turning to Christ. Although I leave no indication this is the intent.

So is there blatant slamming Jesus in people's faces? No. But I did make a concerted effort to make specific tie-ins with the parables for each level and to allow a child to easily relate to the parable.

I am really surprised these threads haven't been locked yet. Although part of me gets a real kick out of it.

Mack

Administrator

Posts: 2779
From:
Registered: 01-20-2001
I think this summery is good:

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Langley:
I think Christian game developers need to learn the same lessons other game developers have already. A game is a game, whether it has Christian purpose and content. Learning how to develop a fun video game is a hard thing and something that takes a lot of development experience and a lot of learning from others. I see too many Christian game development companies completely dismiss this. They dismiss the secular games due to their content and don't learn the fundamental lessons they have.

The Christian game development industry could learn quite a bit from the Indie game development industry. The Indies have come a long way, from making cheap and fast games that don't appeal to many, to making some great casual games that are very fun, engaging, and appealing to many.

Whether a game is Christian or not it still is a game, the fun aspect must be there no-matter the message or content. Though many Christian devs are too stubborn to learn from the mistakes of others, especially of those that develop non-Christian games.



quote:
Originally posted by Matt Langley:
I personally don't like your post.

quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
I personally don't like your wife.

I personally don't like this thread anymore. Locked.