thanks for your insights.

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1 Corinthians 15:58 So, my dear brothers and sisters, be strong and steady, always enthusiastic about the Lord’s work, for you know that nothing you do for the Lord is ever useless. (NLT)

Magic, as is used in real-life by say pagan, wiccan, or even street magicians, is an attempt to aquire power, even if that power is illusional. Its an attempt to bring circumstances and even spiritual beings under ones control to be able to control the otherwise uncontrollable circumstances of one's life and the lives of others(or present the illusion of that and hence gain popularity, even worship). It is in essence, trying to be God.

The magic in Narnia is ok, because it is simply supernatural power which is more manifest than it is in real life. The magic is only accessible by Aslan, who doesn't use magic himself, but relies on the "deeper magic", and the White Witch who is evil, yet both are supernatural creatures.

The magic in LOTR seems almost intellectual, as if it is automatically acquired with age, wisdom and diligent study. It is also exposed by Gandalf to be a necessary burden with constant temptation to follow one's heart lusting for power. Perhaps paralleling the knowledge of good and evil. Innocence lost. That is the reason why he cannot take the ring.

From, a Christian viewpoint, acquiring magic for power or status is against the Bible since it clearly states that God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble, and that vengeance is the Lord's. Not to mention passages that blatently call witchcraft a sin. Jesus, being the essence of God, gave up his "magic" and became one of us. He performed many miracles, but clearly states that it is by the Father's will and power, not his own. Like him, we need to submit to the Lord's power and will. Submission and magic(as most people know it) are opposites.

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penny --Is. 64

[This message has been edited by penny (edited September 27, 2006).]

quote:

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Originally posted by penny:
The magic in Narnia is ok, because it is simply supernatural power which is more manifest than it is in real life. The magic is only accessible by Aslan, who doesn't use magic himself, but relies on the "deeper magic", and the White Witch who is evil, yet both are supernatural creatures.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but iirc, there are a few other people in the Narnian universe who use magic besides Aslan and the White Witch.

I seem to remember that the half-dwarf tutor of Prince Caspian in the 2nd book (is his name Cornelius?) used a little magic to locate Susan's horn, and that's how he came into posession of it. He is half human and half dwarf, and quite obviously mortal. At the end of this book, there is a hag who is another mortal user of magic, but she is clearly evil, and clearly uses her knowledge to try to access the White Witch.

In The Horse and His Boy, the hermit that helps Shasta is a user of magic -- he has a pool mirror that they use to see the battle. He seems to be a fairly mortal, but we aren't told much.

In The Magician's Nephew, Uncle Andrew uses magic to transport Diggory and whats-her-face to the intermediate world. He is fairly obviously wrong in his use of magic in this point, but he's about as mortal as you can get.

In The Silver Chair, the Green Lady is another user of magic, but she almost seems to be a reincarnation of the White Witch, even though she is killed near the end of the book. So that looks like another example of a supernatural character (ab)using magic.

In The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, we meet a couple more users of magic. There is the guy with the island who has the invisible hopping dudes, and his magic book is even usable by Lucy. She uses that magic for both good (restoring the visibility of the mysterious voices and thereby freeing her friends), as well as for evil (evesdropping on one of her friends back at school). Near the end of the book, we meet the guy who is an old star who is slowly being reborn and eventually will go up in the sky again. He is obviously a supernatural user of magic.

I did this all from memory, so I wouldn't be surprised if I mixed up some names.

Even though there are mortal users of magic in Narnia, one important distinction to make is that there is clearly a Higher Power. In many magical fantasy universes, it's a fairly "might-makes-right" sort of approach, and while there is an innate sense of good and evil, there is no Higher Authority. So even though Narnia has fantasy things like magic, it's all under subjection to the Great King Across the Sea, and the magic that's used by mortals (such as Lucy in the Voyage of the Dawn Treader), does not have effect on Aslan -- her reading that spell did not force Aslan to become visible.

Just some more clarification on this subject. I'm still not sure how I feel about the use of magic in something like Harry Potter -- I'm hoping that her last book will show a little more of the worldview behind her writing.

Cheers!

--clint

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penny --Is. 64

However I am happy that I can tell people about magic in a game and what it really is (by just citing the Bible), so that they won't try it. Unlike the secular games which play with fire which they know nothing about and give people the idea to try it out.
Of course (or at least hopefully) only minority of the game players try magics because of a game, but just one person is too much.

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1Jo 2:9-10 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

quote:

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Originally posted by penny:

The magic in LOTR seems almost intellectual, as if it is automatically acquired with age, wisdom and diligent study.

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I hope you don't mean that because Gandalf seemed old he had magic, he was given power by Iluvitar, nothing Gandalf had was earned.

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[This message has been edited by Lava (edited September 27, 2006).]

Anyways, based upon the correct view, given by lava, and wikipedia. I would say Gandalf falls under the category of "endowed supernatural being"

Perhaps that is a defining factor for appropriate use of magic: Being endowed with it for a purpose, under the direction of a higher power(like clint said); instead of aquiring/using magical skills to satiate power-lust or one's own desires.

Thanks for the corrections all. Just my humble (sometimes incorrect) opinions.

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penny --Is. 64

[This message has been edited by penny (edited September 27, 2006).]

quote:

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Originally posted by penny:
Perhaps that is a defining factor for appropriate use of magic: Being endowed with it for a purpose, under the direction of a higher power(like clint said); instead of aquiring/using magical skills to satiate power-lust or one's own desires.

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Penny,
Just make it obvious that the higher power is God Jehovah YahWeh of the Bible and not some other "god" in the game. Cause biblically, if its not God directing/responciable for the supernatural event, then its Satan/demons. That brings up a defination i like. Magic is the use of supernatural power from a source other than God of the Bible and a Miracle is the use of supernatural power from God of the Bible. An the Bible definately says to not traffic with (seek assistance from) Satan/demons nor partipate in witchcraft, sorcery, wizardry, etc. So to be on the safest side, i would say to avoid the use of magic in games that the player can use in any benefical manner. Miracles are another story though and yet to use them, if your not careful, you run into the often times stated "God becomes a vending machine" situation in games.
RifleFire

as with magic, I have no problem, as long as it's no occultic. that's just creepy, then.

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

I Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts

And that is just what we are seeing. All this magic stuff is directly linked, a part of, the occult, all magic is occultic in origin. It’s a deception spun by demons to entrap humans and keep them from Christ and the attack starts in the mind first. There is no validity to such religions or their practices, they are nothing more than a seducing doctrine to lure you away from Christ inch by inch at which to a point it’s hard to determine how far you are into it until it’s wrecked absolute devastation to your spiritual walk. All religions other than Christianity exist just to lead you away from Christ, their gods don‘t exist and the powers come from Satan which is the god to all religions other than what YHWH established.

You are better off avoiding it all together. Don’t play with the stuff and wreck yourself or set an example for others to fall into the same destruction. This magic stuff is something I think we all struggle with, Satan’s powers seem to be growing in these days. But Deut 18 says just stay away from it, and for good reason.

LoTR/Narnia
1. "magicians" weren't "human" - or at least weren't on the side of good. (Exception might be the Uncle, but even then -and with my old memory- a distinction is made below)
2. Different world than our world
3. Humans used magical items, they did not *do* magic.
4. A strong sense of right and wrong, consequence, and responsibility.

HP is opposite of those.
1. humans were the magicians
2. our world
3. Humans both used, did, and created magic and magic items
4. Irresponsibility, rebellion, and arrogence were encouraged or at best got a light slap on the wrist with hearty "good jobs" in the background.

"Magic" on the other hand is what something is described as when people either can't explain or don't feel like explaining the science behind something. If you have a game set in some non-earth planet then I think it's perfectly feasible to have "magic". Maybe in this reality electron flow is more readily acheived so you can shoot massive bolts of lightning from your fingertips with just a little static charge. Most of our technology today would be called magic if brought back in time a couple hundred years. I think unless you have to specifically pray to some demon to get your abilities most people will just assume that you are in some kind of universe where this is just how things work.

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2. Different world than our world

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Posted by netcog:
Irresponsibility, rebellion, and arrogence were encouraged or at best got a light slap on the wrist with hearty "good jobs" in the background.

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first, the humans who could use magic was inherit to them. it was an ability, not a consultation of spirits.
and it is a fictional world. nobody claims that Hogwarts actually exists.

I haven't read the books, but I watched a couple of the movies, and I'd say most of the people's claims of "occult" is unfounded. sounds just like the day when all the conservative christians were up in arms over pokemon.

frankly, faith warrior, it does make a difference. in fantasy, your creating your own world with your own rules. If you want to make a story where people naturally fly, then they can naturally fly. nothing occultic about it. Or, am I to understand that by just giving the name "magic" makes it wrong?

frankly, I agree with Cohort. the problem with "magic" in the bible is consulting spirits/demons. It's not shooting fireballs or causing an earthquake. In a fantasy world, it's just a skill you could do.

I'm thinking of writing a fantasy story(taking place in the far future) where due to a chain of events, technology was lost. now, the people in this time still have access to forms of it retained in themselves(say improved genetics and nanobots) and thus, let's say, they can manipulate the world still. it'd be called magic or soemthign like it, but it'd be based on technology.
would that be wrong? would it be wrong if I never explained how the abilities came to pass?

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

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-"Jesus looked at them and said, 'With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
--Matt. 19:26

quote:

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conservative christians were...

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quote:

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Originally posted by ArchAngel:

I'm thinking of writing a fantasy story(taking place in the far future) where due to a chain of events, technology was lost. now, the people in this time still have access to forms of it retained in themselves(say improved genetics and nanobots) and thus, let's say, they can manipulate the world still. it'd be called magic or soemthign like it, but it'd be based on technology.
would that be wrong? would it be wrong if I never explained how the abilities came to pass?

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ArchAngel,
Now your into Sci-Fi abilities. If its based on tech, explained as being tech, and not calling upon supernatural powers for aid, go for it. You really should point out that the abilities are from old forgotten tech though, as anyone that was playing it and if it was called magic, well, they are gonna get that subtle interest in magic as it exists in our world. Thats Satans ploy to pull people into the occult. Games that contain Magic seems to be occultic education modes that stir in a person an interest in real life occultic powers. When I was younger, I played many occultic rpgs and muds. The more i played them, the more i got interested in such things till i began to think magic was good and i tried to cast spells on various things and further more, YOU HAD to have magic in a game or it just wasnt any fun. It took God Jehovah pulling me away from such games thru various circumstances of life before I realized what a subtle snare magic in games is. The ONLY way i will ever consider putting any magic in a game i make is if the magic is only used by the bad guys and its never used for the benifit of the player. I know that any sufficently advanced tech looks like magic to the uninformed and/or barbarian. But your dealing with young kids and many adults that havent a clue as to the spiritual warfare for their souls thats going on all around them. God Jehovah on one side and Satan on the other. I certainly wouldnt recommend presenting to anyone a positive viewpoint of magic in any form since thats what Satan is trying to do in order to lure people away from Jesus and into the occult. SO yeah, do try to somehow tell people in your game, that its long forgotten tech that is the source of the effects they see.
RifleFire

quote:

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Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
This popped up briefly in a long-forgotten thread, but I'm interested in hearing it again: Since magic is mentioned in the Bible, does that mean most of you believe it is real?

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It doesn’t impact you at once of course, simply the alarm bells begin to fade, you grow accepting that it’s around you and that others recognize it as legitimate, then it goes downward from there. But for the bible believing Christian, all Satan has to do is get you to that point so he can keep you silent on the issue allowing everyone else to fall into the pit around you (i.e. salt loosing its flavor). Sadly, games/movies put a happy face upon it all, makes it less than real, resulting in it being acceptable around you, as just another “life-style choice” that you should not offend. And at the same time it puts a happy face on God, making Him seem more of a fantasy as well, just for fun. So now like “magic” isn’t really real, more like less than real now, and this also casts doubts on anything else of a very serious nature being real or not. But the destroyer on the other end of that illusion is certainly real.

If a person has meditated on scripture, they'll recognize that this thread has similarity to the "meat sacrificed to idols" debate that Paul the apostle addressed. For some, magic is a deadly snare, and has almost ruined their lives. For others, magic has no credibility in their minds. Love will tell us not to cause our brother to stumble (which we've done in this thread quite well.) If you've got magic in your game, you should let it be known.

One issue of this debate that is not mentioned in this thread is "Godly power gone wrong," where spiritual gifts are abused, though transcended from God. Here, godly men make bad choices and cause their own demise. Watch out for deception even in this: the world will say "yes, it is what a person does that matters, not their spiritual source." We know that we are responsible for our actions AND to acknowledge God as our source.

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith_Warrior:
Oh, so it's all the fault of those "Conservative Christians"... their all kill joys, eh? Why feel constraints by what the bible teaches when you can create your own reality where anything goes, k.

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frankly, I generally align myself with conservative christianity and I will offer criticism where I see fit. Much of their constraints aren't from the bible but from their own brand of morality. it happens and it's something to watch out for conservatives. now, liberals need to watch out ignoring the constraints of the bible.

as with Cheese's magic question, I don't believe in magic but I do believe in spiritual powers. people can obtain powers by submitting themselves to either God or the devil. I know of people who have experienced this directly, from both sides.

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

[This message has been edited by ArchAngel (edited September 28, 2006).]

quote:

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Originally posted by manic_gamer:
I was wondering what everyones oppinion on magic and spell craftings in video games is. I know both Lord of the rings and Narnia have magic in them.. but one big reason is im writing a pen and paper rpg and thinking of a magic system

thanks for your insights.

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I've writtena pen and paper rpg trying to create a system that encourages a Christian compatable morality and more than a problem with the magic system I found the whole - striving for power issue the one that gave me most problems. In my system magic made a character a great helper but lousy alone so it wan't my biggest problem (it was technically multi genre but mostly supers based).

No matter what I did players would psuh the system in an interest for pwoer - and that IMHO is the biggest issue to oversome in a RPG.

quote:

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Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
This popped up briefly in a long-forgotten thread, but I'm interested in hearing it again: Since magic is mentioned in the Bible, does that mean most of you believe it is real?

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Would you not expect that we would? It's a tough thing sometimes (especially in our sheltered American culture) -- to really believe that stuff like this has happened and is even happening today. A good question I need to ask myself every once in a while is "Do I *really* believe that Jesus physically died and was raised again?" It's a good refresher question every now and then. So similarly, your question basically seems to boil down to, "Do you guys *really* believe the Bible?"

We went out shopping for African souveneirs for friends back home yesterday. One of my friends requested a "creepy African mask -- as creepy of one as you can find". Talking with one of the other missionaries here (a really cool guy, he was born in Africa and has lived here most of his life -- I guess you could say that he's Americo-African (like Afro-American, except he's a white guy living in Africa). He said that he's seen masks in shops that he wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole. In a way his statement was surprising to me, and in another sense that wasn't. Satan is extremely powerful, and while he will ultimately be destroyed, he's currently the prince of this world.

It's interesting, because being in the states with technology and everything we start to feel like there isn't a spirit world -- that what we can see and touch and taste and smell and hear is all that there is. I think that Satan's greatest deception of the 20th century is getting people to believe that he doesn't exist. In places like here in Africa, black magic is very widely recognized as being real.

I don't necessarily think that a mask in and of itself would have any power itself (just like the Ark of the Covenant wasn't imbued with any power -- it was the power of God resting on it), but the association and the meaning behind it is all very powerful (read the story of the interaction between the Ark of the Covenant and the statue of Dagon for a sample of inanimate objects being used as symbols of spiritual battle). I don't know if evil spirits really do attach themselves to such pieces, but I don't see any reason why I would need a reason to open myself up to any more spiritual attack.

So to answer your question, Cheese -- yes, I feel that there certainly is a very real spirit world with which we can have some amount of interaction. Sometimes I find it hard to believe, but as one who practices meditation, I'm assuming that you believe in a similar spiritual side of reality. Though that's just assuming -- I could be completely wrong. Not all modern Buddhists necessarily believe in a very active spiritual world -- some sound quite existentialist.

It's not as well-thought-out and polished as some of my other answers to you, Cheese -- this is more of my opinion and not based on as much doctrinal evidence as I normally like to use to support what I believe. I hope you found it interesting though.

--clint

The effect of meditation (keeping in mind my noobishness at it) is like waking up refreshed from a nap (not the lazy "it's so hot today" afternoon-type nap) - you're relaxed, and your thoughts are clear and straightforward. I do breathing meditation, nothing spiritual there. There was a Tibetan monk in town whose mind was very likely a lot clearer than mine, but he used visualization techniques (breathing would be a sensation technique, since you're just feeling your breath). Same effect as any other style (like all exercises leading to fitness), but he happened to visualize some kind of weird Tibetan Buddha-goddess. So to answer your semi-question, meditation is only as spiritual as the user, but the effects are the same.

Thanks for your response. I had to re-write this post a few times; my mind is still full of distractions and the urge to rant. Can't pass up an opportunity to advertise meditation either.

Edit: Linked the wrong thing. Maha.
Oops, I also didn't specifically say what I believed. I don't know if there is or isn't. I don't think there is, because there is nothing to be tested, which means the whole story of Spirit Land probably came out of nowhere (my opinion). In most cases, probably from various religions and campfire stories (back when thunder was Thor kicking butt, or angels gone bowling, hehe). Everyone has a few good Unexplained Mysteries, but they'll always stay just that - unexplained - until there's actually something to test. Hundreds of years ago there was no way to test for electrons and junk like that, so I'll stay undecided for the time being.

[This message has been edited by CheeseStorm (edited September 29, 2006).]