Game Design Music and Art

I am bored of games, why arenít you? – warsong




Posts:
From:
Registered:
I am bored of games, why arenít you?

I had a post in another forum how game designers should not be drug dealerís lol. Well the point is that drugs addict people and/or take a lot of time away from doing something more constructive things. Games were used to educate, but now itís to waste time. The word leisure time in ancient Greece and early Christianity use to mean free time use to learn and now it is free time to waste on meaningless things.

ďfundamental motivation for all game-playing is to learn." "Games are thus the most ancient and time-honored vehicle for education. They are the original educational technology, the natural one"
http://www.vancouver.wsu.edu/fac/peabody/game-book/Chapter2.html
Take a look at the article called ďWhy Do People Play Games?Ē

I would prefer a game where its short and you get a lot out of it, than a game where it is long and you get nothing or very little. Something to learn and improve one else would be good. Itís like there are books and articles for learning but no real game equivalence for everyone. There are games to fool around and follow silly stories just like books that say stories but not informative information. You can read the bible but you can't act out its principles in a game but only these boring Q&A games which are boring and for little kids, or these gun games that it just action and doesnít make you act out anything Christian.

Any game you name it is dull and they could be better but with simple things like a making an RPG fighting game where you improve your character and get new moves, but even that would be a waste of time. Maybe a fighting game where it actually shows u martial arts moves in what to do and the game reads how you move your hands and instructs you how to do it the right way. Or maybe a realistic driving game where it teaches you the rules of the road and how to drive since there are so many bad drivers. A cooking game hmmm theirs an original idea you can learn to memories how to cook and the principles of it. Instead of waiting hours in real life to learn and spend so much money the game does it quickly and less expensive but no one is doing anything. And the list goes on and on and people donít think out of the box and only want to make another gun game, platform game, fighting game, etc with different art, bad action, and we memorized and sharpen our skill for a particular game where it will be useless in real life and after we are done playing the game. To memories all the moves, places, story etc of every character in a fighting or other games wonít help in another game or in life.

Even the game industry is taking a hit with so many bad games and what they mainly have going for them is graphics that look real and bigger explosions. What next a game where you blow up planets. If someone is going to make a violent game better make it the most violent game of all time I say, then that way it will push away anyone else that is going to make it and then maybe they might make good games that people get something out of it than loose time, money, and brain cells.

Sure itís to pass the time to have some fun with pointless thing but what about having fun with meaningful things? Life is short and games just make it shorter. Since Christians coders are rare maybe Christian gamers should make BOARD games, hmmm maybe a realistic monopoly game where it takes real life into consideration than the BS that monopoly has.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

NetCog

Member

Posts: 149
From:
Registered: 06-15-2006
hmmm

I've got two main reasons or objectives behind why I'm wanting to learn how to make computers games...besides just playing them.


1. Make games which are so powerful, open, and flexible from within the game using game fuction to mimic real world physics and chemistry. I read a story where someone had to model a portion of their physics research but rather than coding something from scratch (as many appear to do), they used the UT(?) engine which resulted in something far more polished and representative than anything they might have done from scratch. I *know* there are people out there with an interest in the sciences who don't have the time or money for college or self-funded research. Those people could find an outlet and who knows what might be the result if there was a virtual world they could experiment in - actually using the game, playing the game vs cracking open the engine and fiddling with the code.


2. And in doing the above, make great games (gameplay, graphics, speed) which have honor, responsibility, respect, etc incorporated.

I truly believe much of most scientific research that people consider "time intensive" could be accomplished much faster if there was more money and more people. Two things that going virtual will lower the threshold. More people have access to games than science labs. The cost for virtual space and equipment is significantly lower than real world space and equipment.

At the same time there's a responsibility as a game maker (or any entertainment) which borders on the gray area of:
If it can be done, should it?
If it is neutral but can cause harm if misused should I do/make it?
At what point do I continue to take responsibility and resist my efforts to proceed with something others might have a weakness for?
At what point to I try to stop other people's efforts to proceed with something someone else might have a weakness for?
At what point do I stop questioning and proceed in my own efforts, or in support of others' efforts, leaving those who might have a weakness to take responsibility for their own actions?

Note: I'm not looking for those questions to be answered here. I'm presenting them as reflective questions I ask myself and I know other people ask of themselves.

[This message has been edited by NetCog (edited June 24, 2006).]

Lava
Member

Posts: 1905
From:
Registered: 01-26-2005
Let's hope this isn't another spectactular spectacle of endless debatin and fightin, almost reminds me of what a verbal X-men movie would be like, lol.

------------------

[This message has been edited by lava (edited June 24, 2006).]

steveth45

Member

Posts: 536
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-10-2005
ďfundamental motivation for all game-playing is to learn."

By "learn" I hope he meant "have fun," right?

"Itís like there are books and articles for learning but no real game equivalence for everyone."

That's a relief.

"There are games to fool around and follow silly stories just like books that say stories but not informative information."

Story telling is the medium that Jesus used to communicate truth. I've had my fill of informative information.

"Even the game industry is taking a hit with so many bad games and what they mainly have going for them is graphics that look real and bigger explosions."

I agree with you, 100 percent. Better graphics = compensating for boring game.

"Life is short and games just make it shorter."

Small correction: Life is short and games make it funner. You get a 2X multiplier on your fun if you also program games.

------------------
+---------+
|steveth45|
+---------+

dartsman

Member

Posts: 484
From: Queensland, Australia
Registered: 03-16-2006
Games are a source of escapement for some...

but the words of a Lead Animator at a games studio I interned at will always stay in my mind... "Why would someone spend their precious time on earth to play your game?" Made me think about how some people I've known who have died rather young, and what if they had played a game I had made. I would really want it to have benefited them or given them some enjoyment. Games are an entertainment (such as movies/music).

It helps make you want to stick on track and also to realise that yes, games are meant to be fun, but also to keep in mind that you should be aiming to let them accomplish something, or gain something from your game. Doesn't have to be totally educational, just should bring some benefit to the player. Hence why I like christian educational games Not only are you ministering to gamers, providing a safe game environment, but also hopefully the gamer will take it in and share with others

Final note: GO AXYS ADVENTURES Hehe!!!

Ps. Hopefully everything I said was right :P been debugging multiple code projects all day... yay... I now can see code when I close my eyes lol... that can't be good :P If not let me know, I'll gladly re-check it later.

------------------
"But it is God who judges: He brings one down, he exalts another." - Psalm 75:7

buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
lol... games don't make your life shorter... even tho time does fly when you're having fun... duh, they make your life more fun... that's the whole point! they are games...

------------------
WARNING:

RADIOACTIVE IE AHEAD!
--------------------
#include <spazz.h>

int name()
{
char name['B','u','d','d','B','o''y']

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
Perhaps the most important thing is to remember what Jesus says:

Matthew 18:6-7 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. - 7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

So do not offend the little ones, the responsibility is yours.

MMORPGS are worst because they want people to play them long as possible, unlike in other game genres they just want people to buy a copy of the game and make it good enough so that they buy the second version.

------------------
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
Hey, I agree with Warsong.

If I was on my deathbed and all I'd done with my life is play games, I'd feel like crap, even if they were fun at the time.

I have never played an addictive educational game. Now that would be a sweet invention.

Anyways, time to play some StarCraft! ^_^

CapnStank

Member

Posts: 214
From: Sask, Canada
Registered: 12-16-2004
Yeah I do find myself wondering from day to day why I spent so many hours of the last night doing nothing on my computer. It's a phase I go through occasionally but now I've got some free time to take up some good ol' hobbies, Footbag, Trombone, Coding, Work, and I actually am going to expand my art to flash!

------------------
"The only people on Earth who do not see Christ and His teachings as nonviolent are Christians". - Mahatma Gandhi

buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
cool... flash is awesome, wish i could afford it... lol. but if i could afford flash there would be some other things on my list that would take higher priority =D lol.

------------------
WARNING:

RADIOACTIVE IE AHEAD!
--------------------
#include <spazz.h>

int name()
{
char name['B','u','d','d','B','o''y']

graceworks
Member

Posts: 455
From: Corvallis, Oregon, USA
Registered: 03-03-2001
Well the debate on this could go for some time. I'll share that games are an escape for me ... and in '98 I realized that I would be playing them no matter what. So, may as well try to glorify God - which I've tried to do through writing game reviews (on guide2games.org), ratings (ChristianRatings.com), started developing (JarodsJourney.com and InteractiveParables.com), found that the other developers didn't know about each other so founded a yearly conference (cgdc.org), and those developers weren't getting the games sold so started distributing (graceworksinteractive.com and cgnow.com), and publish for myself and Stone (InspiredIdea.com). Yes, I'm tired!

Please give Parables a try - it is an attempt to be fun and educate the player on the Bible, I'd appreciate your feedback -> http://InteractiveParables.com

My prayer for everyone of you would for you to be Salt and Light where you are at. If God has you in a dead-end, hourly rate job right now, glorify Him - set an example that attracts people to Christ! If he has blessed you with a great paying job, glorify Him (and help non-profits like World Vision and support Christian Game Developers by buying the games). Or school/job that gives you lots of free time, Glorify Him and help with some of these projects, your local church/youth group, be a big brother/sister, etc.

Just my thoughts on the topic. ;-)

God bless you.
Tim

------------------
Called by God. The passioned plea of a father. The journey awaits at Jarod's Journey.
Participate in the Parables, The Interactive Parables




Posts:
From:
Registered:
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Netcog
Interesting.

Steve
Life is not more fun with meaningless games. What is the point of gaining the world when you loose your soul?

Dartsman
If a person dies young and the only thing they tell god they accomplished it to play games then thatís a sad soul and sad life. What would Jesus do and didnít Jesus say to be more like him? Isnít life to learn and donít people appreciate and enjoy it more when they understand something? Kind of like music in how not all music is good and the best musicians of all time think to classical music is good while people that listen to rap think it sucks.

Jari
You get it ďBut whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neckĒ I everyone now hanging themselves with joy more than others doing it for them and then they make the same games.

Cheese / Capn
You 2 act more Christian in this post than what some Christians have stated. Lol

Bud
The link says an example :P
How bear cubs wrestle and play hunt so that they learn. Now people do things that are useless. If bear cubs sat infront of a TV all day pressing a button will that help the cub survive when itís older? At least tey are having fun while young and sad while older is that a good thing? 85% of people in the US are in debt form goofing around too much since they donít know better, but at least they had fun when young right?

Grace
The game Parable looks like art work from 15 years ago which is not appealing. I am use to looking at high end games. Kind of like not being able to play games that has Atari graphics sorry to say. Just a thought.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
Since Christians coders are rare maybe Christian gamers should make BOARD games, hmmm maybe a realistic monopoly game where it takes real life into consideration than the BS that monopoly has.

There has actually a fairly consistent (albeit small) turnout of Christian board games at the CGDC, at least for the two years that I've been (and from what I heard, it sounded like board games had been showcased in the past).

I'm very puzzled by what you're trying to say in this thread -- are you advocating getting rid of entertainment? Or are you prejudiced against button-mashing in front of cathode ray tubes in particular? You seem to be singling out video games as a cruder and lower form of entertainment in favor of more traditional things like checkers and Sorry!.

You extoll the importance of learning things in games: "I would prefer a game where its short and you get a lot out of it", but then you also speak of appreciation for the "arts" that don't teach anything in particular -- it's just good art.

By and large, classical music doesn't teach anything. Even so, is it still "good" to listen to? Even though it doesn't directly teach you anything, is it still worth your time? Sure, you may learn about harmony and rhythm, but "good" classical music is largely an emotional experience related through audible (though un-worded) poetry. It's entertainment of little/no eternal consequence, and if I may walk a dangerous line, I would go so far as to call it an "escape", much the same way video games and movies are an "escape". So by those rules, would that mean classical music is bad? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you're singling out video games as an inherintently "bad" form of entertainment. I personally don't see why we should consider any forms of entertainment different, whether it be music, board games, sculptures, television shows, movies, fireworks displays, poetry, juggling acts, wood carvings, paintings, or video games. Art doesn't need to have a "gospel message" in order to be worthwhile, and neither do games. I would guess that you'd agree with this, so I'm not really sure why you're being so hostile to everyone here?

I don't know that I've ever replied to one of your posts before, but the way you were rude to so many people in this thread (Tim Emmerich in particular) astounded me to the point of actually taking the time to try and clarify some of this stuff with you.

Looking forward to your reply.

--clint

P.S. For some more discourse on the subject, you may enjoy listening to this talk entitled Christ is King over the Arts as well as another lecture called Biblical Theology of Entertainment.

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited June 28, 2006).]




Posts:
From:
Registered:
Han
I am not saying that entertainment should be taken away but that we lost the point to entertainment which is destructive and we have to see it for what it really is to go back to how it was to benefit. The game industry seems to have been getting every year close to immorality. Christian games are snubbed just like Christian movie and not encouraged even though there is a big audience that wants them.

You do learn something from the arts, and for you to say we do not is false.
For example good music like chanting or Classical music does help the body, mind, and soul, unlike most modern day music which many studies have shown which many do not know. I hope you donít tell me next that church is an escape since people do nothing their.

I gave some examples that a game can be educational but not necessarily religious. Its ok to have fun but make you would benefit more if you got something out of the game every time you played it. If a child had fun with memory games they would benefit in life later and not need to go over their school work many times to remember it and would have more time to have fun later on. Pointless games are like 1 step forwards (just fun) and 10 steps back (lost time to lean something to benefit you), instead of it being 1 step back (who cares if other jump off a bridge) and 10 steps forward (lean something to benefit you), so which one sounds better?

I was not hostile to anyone and the 2 atheists had a point, Jari made a good point, and others made some good and some bad points which I said my opinion about it. I think people have to look at the big picture and not just on the here and now since they will get hurt later on. Better games would come out if so many people didnít buy so much junk food for the mind games. Knowledge is power as they say.

I hope that helps.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

steveth45

Member

Posts: 536
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-10-2005
quote:
Originally posted by warsong:

Steve
Life is not more fun with meaningless games. What is the point of gaining the world when you loose your soul?

and then later:

quote:
Originally posted by warsong:

I was not hostile to anyone

Warsong, when you say things like this, and even worse, how badly you insulted Tim & Parables, it can be called nothing but hostile.

------------------
+---------+
|steveth45|
+---------+

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
What does God say about fun in the Bible?

Ecclesiastes 2:2 I said of laughter, It is mad: and of mirth, What doeth it?

That has a good question doesn't it, what use does joy have? What do we gain by pleasure? Nothing. It's like that nothing is unpure to eat but we wont gain anything by eating.

I suggest that we all read the Romans chapter 14 before continuing this discussion so that we can be sure that what we say can stand in the light of Bible and in the love of Christ and His grace.

------------------
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
You do learn something from the arts, and for you to say we do not is false.
For example good music like chanting or Classical music does help the body, mind, and soul, unlike most modern day music which many studies have shown which many do not know. I hope you donÔŅĹt tell me next that church is an escape since people do nothing their.

There's a difference between education and health. You very specifically said:

quote:
fundamental motivation for all game-playing is to learn."
and
quote:
Games were used to educate, but now itÔŅĹs to waste time.
I am also a fan of classical music -- Tchaikovsky happens to be my favorite. I also really enjoy chanting, Psalm 127 is my favorite Psalm to chant (for those not familiar with chanting, it's more of reciting poetry to a tune, though without specific metering -- please don't think it's just repeated words, it's got melody and harmony and is very much like singing).

Please don't think for a moment that I don't understand and appreciate the benefits of the arts -- I really do. However, I'm disagreeing with you saying that we "learn" something from Bach. I agree with you that it's healthy and benefitial and can even help us learn other things better but Bach is not a sermon that teaches us the 10 commandments, and Tchaikovsky is not a schoolbook that teaches us logic or quantum physics. Maybe you think I'm drawing too fine a point here, but this comes up a lot with Christian game development -- people want to know "what will my kid learn from this game?", and so Christian game developers are pigeonholed into making their games nothing more than scripture memory flash cards (which, incidentally you bashed in your first post because games in which you learn things are "not fun").

quote:
Its ok to have fun but make you would benefit more if you got something out of the game every time you played it.

Okay, well before, you specifically said that games are to *learn*. Yes, we both agree on this point.

quote:
Pointless games are like 1 step forwards (just fun) and 10 steps back (lost time to lean something to benefit you) instead of it being 1 step back (who cares if other jump off a bridge) and 10 steps forward (lean something to benefit you), so which one sounds better?

Okay, well how about this one? How about a game that is engaging, relates Jesus' teachings in a way that kids can understand, is fun, and doesn't cost a lot? 10 steps forward, right? How about has a graphics engine that is 8 or so years out of date? One step back, right? I think you see where I'm going with this. I'm glad you told Tim what you think of his game -- and everything you said was 100% accurate. Tim of all people will be the first to admit all of the problems that his games have -- but please try to be an encouragement to our Christian brothers trying to do *exactly* what you've been ranting about this whole post. They're trying to make games that are beneficial, that aren't terribly addicting, and games that can provide entertainment without being detrimental. That's my encouragement to you -- please try to be supportive rather than derisive -- these Christian game developers really need our prayers and support -- the secular world laughs at us enough without our Christian brothers doing the same thing.


Going back on topic...

quote:
Better games would come out if so many people didnÔŅĹt buy so much junk food for the mind games. Knowledge is power as they say.

I hope that helps.



Yes, that does help. We both agree on this point, but I want to be wary of going too far in that direction. Entertainment is a good thing, enjoyment is a good thing, though to do it to excess is certainly not right, and it should of course be done in the right spirit (this may be what you've been saying all along, Warsong, but your posts initially sounded like an attack on video games and anything that didn't directly teach you something).

And this brings us to Jari's post.

Jari, I'm not sure that that part of Ecclesiastes should be taken that way -- isn't that from the beginning of the book? I haven't read it in a while, but I'm pretty sure at the end of the book, Solomon essentially says that we should, after all, enjoy life, but know that God will bring everything to judgement.

quote:
Ecclesiastes 11:9-10
Sow your seed in the morning and do not be idle in the evening, for you do not know whether morning or evening sowing will succeed, or whether both of them alike will be good.

The light is pleasant, and it is good for the eyes to see the sun.

Indeed, if a man should live many years, let him rejoice in them all, and let him remember the days of darkness, for they will be many. Everything that is to come will be futility.

Rejoice, young man, during your childhood, and let your heart be pleasant during the days of young manhood. And follow the impulses of your heart and the desires of your eyes Yet know that God will bring you to judgment for all these things.

So, remove grief and anger from your heart and put away pain from your body, because childhood and the prime of life are fleeting.


I'm not saying that we should be gluttons for entertainment, but I feel that it is Biblical to enjoy life without needing to be utilitarian in everything that we do.

Ugh, okay. I'm tired from writing so much, and I fear that I'm getting too hostile -- please forgive me if I am. I really don't disagree with very much of what you've said, Warsong -- I've mainly disagreed with the way that you've said it. We agree on most points.

Thanks for the discussion, I hope I haven't come across too harshly.

I'll probably edit this post later.

Cheers!

--clint

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
Ecclesiastes 11 is interesting, especially the end (verses 9 and 10).

Here is something for us to consider...

- Ecc 11:9 KJV Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes: but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment.

- Ecc 11:10 KJV Therefore remove sorrow from thy heart, and put away evil from thy flesh: for childhood and youth are vanity.

In 11:9 i used bold letters for the part where solomon had wrote that in the we be brought to judgement from all that rejoice - if we take it literally. I don't think the message is that we shouldn't rejoice but I do believe this is a warning about "wild" and "ungodly" life.
Because it appears to me that in 11:10 we are adviced to put the sin, the evil away from us, from our flesh. This is adviced because they (sinful pleasures) are only momentary pleasures and the eternity is ahead - life here on earth is vanity in what comes to the pleasures.

So I dont think says we will be judged for laughing but for living life for our pleasures only. "Why stand ye here all the day idle?" (Mat 20:6)

I hope that makes sense.

In Christ,
Jari.

[This message has been edited by jari (edited June 29, 2006).]

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
I would have to check, but it sounds like it's saying that all of these things will be brought into consideration at the judgement -- I.E. have fun, but don't forget that even in your lesiure, you will be accountable to God for your actions.

Let's look at some more of Solomon's writings on the subject.

Proverbs 24:13-14: My son, eat thou honey, because it is good; and the honeycomb, which is sweet to thy taste:
So shall the knowledge of wisdom be unto thy soul: when thou hast found it, then there shall be a reward, and thy expectation shall not be cut off.

"But that's talking about wisdom!" one might say. Yes, but it's also talking about eating enjoyable things in life. Let's move on to Proverbs 25.

Proverbs 25:16: Hast thou found honey? eat so much as is sufficient for thee, lest thou be filled therewith, and vomit it.

Basically saying, eat only so much as is good, but don't go overboard with such "good things of life".

And to make the necessity of temerance even more clear:
Proverbs 25:27: It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory.

I think sometimes as Christians we can go overboard with being so utilitarian about our actions that we lose out on enjoying many things in life -- almost to the point where if our actions don't directly tranlate into saving souls, then it's sin and we should feel guilty about it. Maybe you haven't ever run across this attitude, but I can tell you that at Christian college attitudes like this can be rampant (mainly among the students -- the profs are generally better tempered). And this attitude is among Christian game development as well -- that if games aren't evangelising, then they're useless. Well, yes -- that's true, but only to a point. I think it's very Biblical to have good art/entertainment for the sake of art/entertainment -- things like music, sculpture, film, painting, juggling, photography, drama, fireworks and video games. So even though I'm working on explicitly Christian video games at the moment, I'm not sure that it's entirely necessary to do so exclusively.

Cheers!

--clint

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
HanClinto, I don't want to say much about this because I feel that the "right way" in life is something we must all learn and it's difficult to put in words how we should live (Only God can make perfect step by step guide through life and He has but it's hidden in the Bible).
But I would just like to make a note that perhaps the honey's most important meaning is God's word.

------------------
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)




Posts:
From:
Registered:
Steve
I didn't insult anyone, point out to an insult that I said to you or anyone. Lets not over react. I stated an opinion and asked a question to you. I didn't mean to insult and I didnít think I did, but I was being honest.

You want to know an irony. I got that bible quote from the PSX game Castlevania LOL "16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"

I guess some might comment about that but like Bill Cosby said that he wars others not to fall into the same pot hole he fell into. But many want to learn the hard way.


han
Music was an example of one art form. The arts help the person to be more refined and part of an education. If we look at what the kids at Socrates time learned they learned mainly Grammar, music, and physical education were the basics. Education was not a motive for a career but to be refined for organizing thoughts and self expression to priorities their thoughts. Education is education if it is direct or indirect.

I am not laughing at any Christian game but I am saying a suggestion. There is a difference from being insulting to hurt someone and being honest to help. I think an addicting Christian/learning game would be good since the person would want to play more. I am not saying too addicting that they stave to death lol. I think the best place to target Christian games mostly is for young kids before they get influenced by secular games, since a lot of people are addicted to main stream secular games.

You use the word leisure when you say "have fun, but don't forget that even in your leisure, you will be accountable to God for your actions." and you have to know what it means before which the word referred to learning.


Jari
Again you say it well. I tried to explain for them to think it out. I guess I want them to make a decision so that the bible agrees with them, than for them to agree with the bible in what it says. You know what I mean? I guess I failed. If it like this, is it better for people to learn that that stealing is wrong or should they be told from God that it is? Personally I feel that if the bible has to explain everything then what is the point of thinking things out when people they can just input the information. Kind of like a computer processor vs. a hard drive. There are some things the bible is not direct about on things that were not around like video game but indirect for us to think about it, but if people get use to getting information like a hard drive then the processor is ignored in some ways.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

Tonnyx

Member

Posts: 140
From: Indiana, USA
Registered: 08-02-2005
Hey, warsong!

I would second the recommended link that Clint included called "A Biblical Theology of Entertainment".

I haven't figured out exactly what I want out of video games yet. I have come round quite a ways from where I was, which was very similar to where you stand now. A lot of it was because of those two links that Clint included, another is a book that I'm reading right now called "Sham Pearls for Real Swine" by Franky Schaeffer (since you're such a big fan of Orthodoxy, you might appreciate this one - Schaeffer stands strongly by his Orthodox faith in this book). In it, he calls for a Renaissance of art.

Art, he argues, ceases to be art when it is created or manipulated for political propaganda, or ruined by over-pious zealots, etc. In other words, art is not a "message", art is not the gospel, art has a place of its own that no other thing fills. When you insist that art must "do" something, it ceases to be art, and it becomes something awful. <rant>I feel strongly that Christians trying to make good games should not follow the path of Christian music and Christian literature. It sux. The only thing sadder than the fact that it gets produced in such quantity is that it's consumed in such quantities.</rant>

Now, then, are games art? No, not quite. But what is a game? Games are not quite art, but they are similar in that they, in their purest form, are not propaganda (religious or political), smut, or any other aberration. Advergames are a huge example of games that are not "real games" in the sense that political posters are not "real art". They can be quite entertaining, and they can make their point in creative ways (has anyone tried out that McDonalds game? or Disaffected?). Many other games are what pornography is to real art. Again, an aberration. Games, of any sort (video or board or sports), don't have to "do" things. One clear characteristic, though, is that games are fun. Take out the fun, and it's not a game anymore. Like the artist's, it's the game developer's challenge to remain true to form and yet create a game that is "true" and "good".

A "good" game, at the very least, must be done well - good writing, good plot if there is one, good programming, good graphics if there are any, intuitive interface - everything in it should be done *well*. An aspiring artist practices & hones his skills so that he is able to create & communicate well via his medium. The developer should do the same, in such a way that the message doesn't get in the way of his medium (the game), nor should the medium (game mechanics, art, programming, etc.) get in the way of what's being communicated.

While I won't defend any particular games as "good", and I don't think that people should just accept all games wholesale without a critical eye, I am going to suggest, Warsong, that you've missed the mark in a different direction when you insist that games must "teach" or "do" in order to be worthwhile. It's an easy and extremely tempting position, and one that too many people take, to the detriment of our culture.

</ramble>

------------------
it's pronounced "tonics"

NetCog

Member

Posts: 149
From:
Registered: 06-15-2006
Han - thank you for your comments.
JeTSpice
Member

Posts: 433
From: La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: 06-10-2006
There's a lot more to any kind of Christian entertainment than just the end product. You have to measure your success in terms of what you've done for other people. There is no perfect Christian video game, but God gives many different kinds of gifts and talents to us for doing many different things to glorify Christ. Some are craftsmen, others are business-minded. Warsong, you feel strongly about the state of Christian games. But with your many words, you have spilled your strength.



Posts:
From:
Registered:
Tonnyx
I think that to make a good game people should make first a good story. Well thatís the philosophy of the people that made Mortal Kombat.

I think if people build good Christian games that it would sell well to even atheists. Funny how when a game has secular views Christians buy it , but when it is targeted for Christians no secular person gets it. A Christian game should target everyone and I donít think a secular person would want to sit their looking at crosses and memorizing bible verses. Itís a game they should interact so make them act it out in the game than just tell them to do it in real life. Show them the consequences of their actions the good and the bad to make them understand. Secular people get it which is how so many secular movies sell well to Christians because they donít sell secular views they sell the acted out ideology, but Christians donít do that and just throw in your face the views than acting out the ideology. Well thatís my opinion.

Make them learn without knowing that they are its just like propaganda how so many believe BS and the BS doesnít say it is it just mainly entertains with a side of BS. Art is manipulated and it should have a limit and one example is the elephant dung that is used to paint a picture of the virgin Marry. That is an example of political propaganda I guess. Freedom of speech was to let people say things to find the truth and not to find ways to make jokes and insult which defeats the purpose.

You could say that games are just as much propaganda now as movies are since the story in a lot of popular games plays a big role which they put their view point. Games must teach or at least not be as addicting as those online games that are a detriment to culture which China is taking action against online games since they see how it affects the youth. Over here in the US they donít care since companies would sell drugs if they could if they could benefit. A lot of teachers say that the kids play a lot of games at home and it affects their learning. It would be good if the teacher game the kid a game to lean and be addicted to. I see one neighbor t hat plays games and they are not doing well in school, while the other doesnít play at all and likes to read and they skipped 3 grades. Now who is benefiting more? School has gotten easier over the years and kids are failing more and you call that progress when kids are addicted to games kind of like adults addicted to smoking and coffee? The one that passes the grads is happier now and will be happier with her better career. Lol


Jetspice
It is true that if you help even one person that is good, but it is always better to help more. I think many designers should research more to how to sell the Christian games. I think they should not apply to only Christians as I said to tonnyx. If you ask me what I think would be a right direction for a Christian game would be to not blatantly say it but for people to act it out in the game without knowing it which would also help non Christians play it and know what is right and wrong and when they do wrong they see the consequences of their actions. Secular movies donít say they impose secular views and say itís a secular movie they say itís a movie and they mix their views in the story so that people agree, and the same should be done with Christian games but with more emphasis on choice and the consequence of their actions.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

pigpen98

Member

Posts: 41
From: Indiana
Registered: 03-29-2006
Originally posted by warsong:
I am bored of games, why arenít you?
Games were used to educate,

i know im a little late, but dude,seiriosly,games were ment to have fun with.
i mean what are you 90 years old?! games now days arent so horrible. infact they get better, and better! course, then there is leapstart! lol!

------------------
"kinda makes ya wanna treat me with more respect, huh?"

[This message has been edited by pigpen98 (edited July 06, 2006).]

Simon_Templar

Member

Posts: 330
From: Eau Claire, WI USA
Registered: 10-25-2004
In history games and entertainment have often, if not always, served a practical educational function as well. This does not mean that the purpose of games is to learn.. it means that games are something all people like, thus people have always used them to teach because it is effective.

The purpose of games.. ie the reason people play games, is to have fun, to be entertained. If games are not fun, or not entertaining, it doesn't matter in the least what they teach because people won't play them.

In otherwords, the fun is the point, its the reason people play. However, play can effectively be used to teach, and still remain fun thus serving an important dual purpose.

In our day and age we face something which has rarely been seen in history. A society which has essentially devoted itself, at the younger levels, entirely to entertainment. In history entertainment was a diversion from work, now people work just as much as they need to in order to fund their game habit and will sooner quit a job than allow it to get in the way of their entertainment

I'm a strong believer in the idea that work is not the point of life. But I must admit that much of the youth of our society have gone extremely overboard on the other side of things.

So we live in a situation in which young people devote more time to entertainment and games than they do to learning, to work, to family, to faith etc.


In such an environment I think it becomes even more important and more vital that we craft games and entertainments which have value other than just entertainment. Because so little time and effort is already put into those things by young people, it becomes even more important that we put them into games.

The key is that the games have to remain fun.

------------------
-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.