Game Design Music and Art

Multiplayer from a Christian perspective – Mack

Mack

Administrator

Posts: 2779
From:
Registered: 01-20-2001
Since it's been over a month since the last topic was posted in 'Game Design, Music, and Art' area I thought I would drop a question;

Do you think that Christian games could have multiplayer and how could would you intergrate Christian principles into a multiplayer game design?

It has to be for one of the top 3 genre (RPG, RTS, FPS) and involve more than 'Christian moral' design choices (ie; no blood, spam/profanity filters, etc.).

goop2

Member

Posts: 1059
From:
Registered: 06-30-2004
agh.. a thinking question.. no blood?? that makes it even harder! How about a Runescape style game, exept its based off from David. Its in the time of the battles David fought. All the sorts of crafting skills would be taken from runescape, but every once in a while there will be a battle. You can join it, and if you do you get the choice of fighting, defending your city, or attacking their city. (maybe not attacking) I think if you put some immagination into it you could come up with a realy cool game!

------------------
------------------------
Its one of those... Goop... things...
hotmail: Grafitiware@hotmail.com
Yahoo: namerobbedagian

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
I once had an idea for a game like this. Consider a world made up like an onion, rings going inwards, except, as you go inwards things get bigger and harder. To get to the next "ring" you have to solve a puzzle or puzzles of some kind, all while fighting demons and other things that are trying to stop you. It's a methaphor of our Christian life, the farther we go, the more we find of God, but at the same time it'll be multiplayer, so players can work together to get past the challenges and enter the next "ring". That way, you're not fighting against our players, but instead against the enemy, who is trying to stop you all, and you must work together as one "body" (hint hint) in order to overcome him and move on in your metaphorical Christian walk.

------------------

Conan

Member

Posts: 69
From: the world
Registered: 06-27-2004
I had another idea (naturally crazier and I will subconciously involve Poland in it).

Game Name (Provisional): Bamf
Style: Multiplayer (1-16) RPG
Story: It starts with everybody with their personally created chars (no classes please, just skill choosing), peacefully walking around Poland. They can talk and do whatever they want. 10 minutes later they just dissapear and appear in another world. There they must help the people in some stuff, and when they do, they're swept to another world. And so on... But when they get to any world, they don't understand anything!!! It takes time to learn the language and to even grasp what problems they have, sometimes you just have to perform simple tasks, and others, ummm... (insert another idea here)
Anyways, got tired of writing, someone pleas continue my brainstorm!!!

------------------
Quantum Materiae Materietur Marmota Monax Si Marmota Monax Materiae Possum Materiari?

goop2

Member

Posts: 1059
From:
Registered: 06-30-2004
quote:
Originally posted by conan:
There they must help the people in some stuff, and when they do, they're swept to another world.

And then this giant broom comes down.....

------------------
------------------------
Its one of those... Goop... things...
hotmail: Grafitiware@hotmail.com
Yahoo: namerobbedagian

Dyreck

Member

Posts: 20
From:
Registered: 12-17-2002
quote:
Originally posted by conan:
I had another idea (naturally crazier and I will subconciously involve Poland in it).

Game Name (Provisional): Bamf
Style: Multiplayer (1-16) RPG
Story: It starts with everybody with their personally created chars (no classes please, just skill choosing), peacefully walking around Poland. They can talk and do whatever they want. 10 minutes later they just dissapear and appear in another world. There they must help the people in some stuff, and when they do, they're swept to another world. And so on... But when they get to any world, they don't understand anything!!! It takes time to learn the language and to even grasp what problems they have, sometimes you just have to perform simple tasks, and others, ummm... (insert another idea here)
Anyways, got tired of writing, someone pleas continue my brainstorm!!!


Sounds cool conan, kinda like what Diablo II mp is like from what I understand meaning that it is an rpg not an mmorpg with a far more linear story line.

I think mp is a vital part to most games these days, It's what really gives the game some legs to reach a larger audiance

quote:
Originally posted by Ereon:
Consider a world made up like an onion, rings going inwards, except, as you go inwards things get bigger and harder. To get to the next "ring" you have to solve a puzzle or puzzles of some kind, all while fighting demons and other things that are trying to stop you.

I like this idea alot Ereon, deffinetly something to build upon, probably into a MMORPG, it has the feeling of an enormous that you can explore. How bout that on the inner most layer of the world you can see the horizon fall away form you like you're near a cliff? That would be crazy to implement!

But back to Mack's question, I think multiplayer is posible for most games and that some from of co-op would be a perfect way of incorporating mp into Christian games, and I think that co-op, especially in the FPS genre, should be expected in most games that come out. But one thing still sits in the back of my mind, and that IS moral decisions that the Player has to make. For example, I think that if you make a Christian MMORPG for example, then allowing the player to make a choice between different factions that at war against each other is not a terrible thing. The larger story of the game could have it that the bigger confict is not the tension between the two factions but some other larger threat and the story has the player exploring the pros and cons of each sides handling of the larger threat. Would one side be the decided 'good' faction and the other the decided 'bad', yeah there's nothing wrong with that, and allowing the player to make a choice is just respecting the freedom of choice that he is given. There should be consequences for what a player does and they should be exposed to those consequences in the flow of the game.

You know what would be a really cool story to use for the consequences of moral decisions? Have a game about a MMORPG. I know this has already been done, but what if you make it an MMORPG of an MMORPG. What happens is that depending upon the quests that characters take, what they do in them and how they interact with other players affects the virtual "world's" stability. If the choices are based upon selfless deeds and serving others the world remains stable, but if they are selfish and step on everyone else to get what they want the world will be come unstable. Since the story takes place in a video game, the more unstable the world becomes the more of a chance the game will 'crash'. If a 'crash' occurs then the players character/s will be reset back to a previous saved state. Theses save states would be based upon data on all characters that is kept in a backup database. Backups are made at regular intervolts that are publicly known so that you can work your way up a level or get some item and it will be there if a crash occurs. This is getting preatty long so I'll wrap it up. Crashes would not occur frequetnly, unless something really bad happens, and can be expected to happen maybe once or twice a year, or not at all, that is dependent upond the players. The players can prevent crashes by doing quests and things that increase the stability of the 'world'.

This is still a rough idea I just came up with for this post so don't read to much into it. What do you think?

[This message has been edited by Dyreck (edited April 01, 2006).]

bennythebear

Member

Posts: 1225
From: kentucky,usa
Registered: 12-13-2003
quote:
Originally posted by Ereon:
I once had an idea for a game like this. Consider a world made up like an onion, rings going inwards, except, as you go inwards things get bigger and harder. To get to the next "ring" you have to solve a puzzle or puzzles of some kind, all while fighting demons and other things that are trying to stop you. It's a methaphor of our Christian life, the farther we go, the more we find of God, but at the same time it'll be multiplayer, so players can work together to get past the challenges and enter the next "ring". That way, you're not fighting against our players, but instead against the enemy, who is trying to stop you all, and you must work together as one "body" (hint hint) in order to overcome him and move on in your metaphorical Christian walk.



i think this is a really, really good idea! it's actually the best game/game idea i've heard of yet(imo). this would be the first Christian video game i'd really want to buy. if you made it good enough, and enough people played it, you could even charge a low monthly subscription, which x amount of the money could go to a Christian/evangelistic/missionary/ some sort of organization, and of course a lot of it to cover server costs. but that's just me thinking really really big...but it is possible.

------------------
proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

proverbs 25:7
open rebuke is better than secret love.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
Mack,

It's a very good question, and one which we (BrainKabob) have been wrestling with.

We haven't done much with it yet, but I'm still hoping we'll get back to it someday.

One problem with so many games and stories is that they're all so serious and drastic. Everything's "life and death" and "the end of the world" and whatnot. And generally those seem to make better stories! Lord of the Rings seems to be a more redeeming story and whatnot -- I mean, The Hobbit is just about some dwarves who want some money back that was taken from them -- the Lord of the Rings is about the fate of the whole world and stuff.

Drastic games that are Good vs. Evil are hard, because then someone has to play good and someone has to play evil.

So perhaps it could be run as the military does things -- a "training mode" that's versus, and a cooperative multiplayer-vs-AI where the players are fighting AI'd evil (and noone has to play the bad guy).

Just some thoughts.

--clint

Dyreck

Member

Posts: 20
From:
Registered: 12-17-2002
Han, I agree that is the ideal that would be what most if not all christian developers should strive for, at the same time that would require very good AI programing skills but still will not get the same effect as playing against a flesh and blood person who is more unpredictible, and who are more fun to trash talk with! Your idea is very much like what the Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon does for it's multiplayer were 2 to 6 players can play story missions from the game against the comp AI which is exactly like your example. But I guess to determine how MP should be delt with is dependent on the game play and the story (obviously ). So yes the "easy" way of having a "safe" Christian MP game is to have every be on the same team against the computer. Nothing wrong with that concept but I think that issue of Player vs. Player is a tougher concept that is worth more attention. But what do all you guys think?
GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
Just so you guys know we already have a solution for the "who plays the bad guy" problem. When players are playing against each other each team visually sees their team character models as the "good guys" and the other team as the "bad guys". So no matter which team you join you're playing as a "good guy".

So any ideas on integrating Christian moral messages into a MP FPS?

[This message has been edited by Gump (edited April 03, 2006).]

Dyreck

Member

Posts: 20
From:
Registered: 12-17-2002
Yeah, that is how they do it in America's Army, I didn't mention it because, frankly, it has already been done.

Other routes that have been taken is to give each faction a specific reason to be in conflict with the other faction, not necessarily labeling one side good or evil, but what defines their moral affiliation is the actions taken in the game.

Take for example the red vs. blue teams that you see in most FPS's, there really is no one side that is good or evil, it's just what team you decide to play one. You can be labled as an unsportsmanlike player, and hence "evil" or "bad", but in such story lacking type of game play, worring about good or evil, tends to be reduce to being just a fair and gracious competitor. The best we can do there can be just to have good anti-cheat software and fair admins for servers.

I guess I'm really harping on the story element that about multiplayer that is possible. I can imagine that in the game, when players are defeated they are not considered "killed", but something like there endurance has reach it's limit and they are pulled out of the game to get a quick rest to recharge their stamina. That would be something for like a FPS and RPG but an RTS would require a unique approach, especially for any type of millitary theme that has people fighting and still retain the feel of a serious game.....

If these rants are getting to long, just tell me and I'll tone it down.
I'd hate to scare people away from the discussion.

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
That reminds me of another idea I had for an online multiplayer game, I'll have to dig up my design document again but here's the gist of it. You start out as a "recruit" angel and work together with other players to fight demons in several "real world" setting, school, neighborhood, movie theater, ect. As you fight and gain kills you attain certain awards that affect your rank and appearance (100 kills equals a silver sword, ect.) and some of those require you to be nominated by a player-commander. For instance, if you want to become a captain you have to have a certain amount of kills and play time in addition to a nomination by a major or whatever you want to call it. But the cool thing is that the admins, who make the game and moniter it and such, can, at certain times, actually enter the game as a super-powerful demon principality, so, most of the time you'll be slashing merrily along fighting AI controlled demons of various strengths, zipping through walls, ect, but every once in a while one of the admin controlled principalities will come in to the game, with human skill and unpredictability, so you and your player angel buddies have to work together to take down this massive, and hopefully unpredictable, adversary. That way you don't have to fight other players but you also, occasionally get the fun of facing a truly human opponent.

------------------

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
quote:
Originally posted by Gump:
Just so you guys know we already have a solution for the "who plays the bad guy" problem... <snip>

So any ideas on integrating Christian moral messages into a MP FPS?


Ah, okay. Cool! Good idea about the good/bad guys.

What kind of message? We have been wrestling with this issue at our church LAN parties -- what redeeming value can we add to make parents more willing to let their kids come to the parties? Generally we've been playing Unreal Tournament, which isn't the greatest moral game (cussing in the taunts, a couple of obscene gestures you can get to, aweful female models, blood/giblets, etc). The last time we had a party, we made a homework assignment for anyone who wanted to come, and they had to pick a verse and write a paragraph on how, in light of that verse, Christ is Lord over our whole lives -- including our game playing.

We had almost 20 kids there, and got a very wide variety of verses. Everything from "Whether you eat or drink, do it all to the glory of God" to (more jokingly) "He prepares my fingers to fight". All that to say, we've been starting to successfully helping kids to think about Christ whilst playing frag-em-up games, but haven't gotten to include that in a game yet. I'll keep thinking about it.

Are you thinking along the lines of cutscene/loading scene ideas? Taunt messages ("Smite this!")? Ideally some moral message could come through in the gameplay and game mechanics, but that's probably more subtle. What's the theme? Angels vs. demons? That's a genre that's so crazy as far as what people think of, because of all of the cultural mythology that goes along with that (such as Spawn and Constantine and other stories). If you're starting with something like Spawn, it's probably going to be hard to bring a good Christian message into it, because it's by-nature such a God-is-detached-and-we-fight-independent-of-Him sort of thing.

One story I need to keep reading is The Holy war, made by King Shaddai upon Diabolus, for the regaining of the metropolis of the world; or, the losing and taking again of the town of Mansoul, by John Bunyan. If anyone here has read it, I'd love to know if it's good material that could be used as a mechanic for a Christian game.

--clint

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
The idea itself needs alot of polish, it was just a small idea snippet that popped into my brain one day and I just happened to write it down. The thing about MP games is that it's hard to get the player emotionally attached to the game or really "in" to it. It pretty much seems to involve either A) Kill as many little enemies as you can to get exp to level up and get better or to get more equipment (mostly in MMOs and it gets very repetitive and therefore none involving) or B) kill as many of the enemy as possible without dying yourself (as is the case in most FPSs. In either way there's little room for cutscenes or even engaging storyline as the objective are often constant and repetetive in both cases). In either regard I personally, at this time at least, am not interested in pursuing this idea beyond the point of previs or occasional addition, I'm working on previs for my new project right now, and I'd rather focus on one thing at a time, that way I can pour the entirity of my effort into a single goal. I would like to discuss any of the ideas I've presented though if anyone is interested in using them or refining them to a more usable point.

------------------

"I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind

[This message has been edited by Ereon (edited April 03, 2006).]

GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
We have a screenplay for Nightmare's single player mode which has moral messages aplenty. The Demon Hunters MP mode also has possibilities for moral messages we're already considering. What Mack is talking about is integrating moral themes into basic DM, Team DM, CTF, etc. Oh, and Flood of course. We really haven't discussed moral messages for basic multiplayer ourselves so that's why Mack is asking for ideas.
LegaianLight

Member

Posts: 71
From: Colorado, United States
Registered: 04-04-2006
Interesting that i should find this topic now...Today i started considering making a Christian online RPG an RTS/FPS mix (well, the second i was thinking of for a few days. Im interested in some of these ideas.

The first is a 3rd person rpg with a far away fixed camera. You take the role of some type of character going out into the world and preaching the gospel. To keep some kind of action in it, though, you can look at things in one of two ways-in the physically, or the talking side, or the heavenly side, in which you can actually see your character doing spiritual war with the demons in the other persons life. Instead of going out and finding and purchasing weapons, you will learn scriptures every now and then (this ideas similar to one i saw implemented in exegesis) and you can choose to apply these to your weapon or any piece of the full armor of God. That would take a long time to do, just an idea though. Theres more on that, i just dont have it thought out all that well as i just started thinking of it this morning.

The second isnt exactly a fps/ rts as a strategy done in the first person as opposed to a top down view. To state it simply, your goal is to create a town and defend it against an opponent. They too try to make and upkeep a town, and your goal is to get into it. So more or less, in each game, a person starts with simple walls of wood and a few small store rooms. Then they must tell others on their team what to make and where in order to make fortifications. This entire game could easily also turn into capture the flag. In order to keep people from attacking a town right from the start, theres a period of time where characters cant go from their town radius. In a town, one can make metalworker shops from which they can make weapons to take down the opponents fortress. Now, there is no pvp in the way that you can go out and kill the other players to stop them from harming your town. one can only carry a certain amount of weight at a time and, depending on what material they are using their weapons on, the weapon will need repairs. i just did a really rushed explaination of each of these, so if anyone would like to ask any questions or help me in using these ideas, i wouldnt say no!

------------------
O Praise Christ, O Praise Christ, He Is Holy, He Is Holy - O Praise Him,

christo
Member

Posts: 75
From:
Registered: 07-12-2004
I have been playing around with Everquest and a major problem I have seen in it is the lack of story line outside of quests. If you get some storyline in the quests it is primarily dialog only. So far I have only thought of one fix for this and that is to lock sections of the game to be veiwable to one character at a time or be open only at certain times so the players can all see it at the same time that are at that point of their quest(this might be good for church scenes, might require automated entry to the area). This way you don't have the conflict of other players seeing something that they shouldn't be veiwing yet. Maybe this fix could be used in what ever game gets developed from this.
Dyreck

Member

Posts: 20
From:
Registered: 12-17-2002
Hey christo, I think what most people would say is to have the quests and story be progressed by talking to non-player characters( or npcs) or having to quest with them. What i mean by that is that if an npc has a quest you may not beable to talk to him about it because he doesn't know you, know of you or your character has to talk to someone else to follow that story. This then allows you to bar people from different story lines because they talked to one npc and not another. I guess this would be like doing side quests in an rpg but depending on who you are able to talk to, you can go on different quests.

My second idea about having a npc with you goes along the idea that you need someone with more expierence and wisdom to help you through whatever task you are doing. Also ....dang, stepped away from the keyboard and for got what I was going to say

Oh well