A few months ago, I was discussing games and their general design with a few friends, and the topic of violence came up. It was a reather length, and not very productive discussion, but it did prompt me to rethink my views about this. And after some prayer, and some heavy pressuring from God, I finally bent the way He wanted me to.

So my general question I guess is: Based on christian ideals (ie. the bible) Is it okay to have violence in games? With more niggly questions like :

Should violence against humans be disallowed, but other violence like killing animals for food, possible killing spirits, or make beleive creatures. Is that ok?

If the game is labelled a christian game, is it right to encourage violence in any way?

What if its an unusual circumstance, like family being threatened? Is mercy killing ok? like having someone in extreme pain, so you snap their neck to put them out of their misery?

All sorts of issues come off the question. I What I'm basically asking is, what are all your views on the subject?

For me personally, thanks to God, I now can't stomach the idea of putting violence against another human in a game I write. Violence against made up creatures I don't know, against animals I have no problem with, just doing violence against another human I don't like.

Its been niggling at me for a bit now, so I thought I would see what everyone else thinks.

†Caleb†

You can "dis-able" mortal enemies in Revelation (knock them out) and you can't kill a spirit, however you can banish them to a place of constant torment, which I like better.

I think killing make beleive creatures is ok, humans/animals no, I'm not sure about mercy killing, I think the players/characters personality falls into that and they have a choice. They can either see them in pain, or finish it off quickly. For me, hearing the screams of tormented friends is too much. I rather sink a slug into there heads then let them slowly be torcured.

In real life if some person was hunting me/friends/family/etc. down I would have no problem taking any selected weapon and sending them to an early grave. I think alot of people would agree with me, as if I'm going to let some freak take down my friends/family/etc. and I'm not going to do anything about it. Of course we're talking about games but yeah, just wanted to toss that in. :-)

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So tell me, Who's the solid rock on which I stand? Jesus Christ is the solid rock on which I stand!
Two Guys Software - Rebels with a cause

About killing animals: no reservations. God gave them to main to use as they saw fit. However, there is no need for useless killing. If you need the skin, or the meat of an animal to feed yourself or your friends, well then thats valid. Also killing wild animals that are attacting you, or livestock or even crops. But sport hunting serves no purpose.

Since demons are only on a solely spiritual level, we only have the Word of God, and Jesus Blood. We really do know what happens to demons we cast out.... but the Bible gives hints. for instance, when Jesus cast the demon called Legion out of that guy who lived in the tombs, the demons went into the herd of swine, and made them run into the lake and drownd. This shows me two things: animals can't be possesed and live, and demons just leave the area when they are cast out.

Your right about protecting your family Mack. I think given the situation, and a weapon at hand, all of us would.

Mercy killing? if it's obvious that the person wont make it, and they ask you to... it would be hard to do, but i think it would be right to do. Of course only in the most dire circumstances. like if someone got themselves cut in half: another a mortal wound where theres no way to survive. however in a game you could just have them pray for the character...

theres my two cents,
-Veritech

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"If you even breathe a word of what you've heard here, I hope Gandalf will turn you into a spotted toad, and fill the garden full of grass-snakes" - "Fellowship of the Ring" by JRR Tolkien (p91)

My girlfriend now (x grilfriend for many years) had gotten hold of some stolen clothes, and she didn't pay for them from the theif that she got them off promptly after a few weeks came around, and there apon he obcused me, headbutted me in the chest, and beat me around the face with his fist, mean while my girlfriend was getting obcused by his girlfriend, when all was said and done and they where about to leave, leaving me on the bed shaking uncontrolably in fear of my very life, he popped his head around the door, and said "I suppose you hate me now!", at which I looked up at him square in the eyes and replyed "No, I forgive you", in that instant I did more damage to him than any physical damage I could have done to him with my fists if I had tried, forever more unless he repents for his actions to God, he will forever hear my words .. "No, I forgive you".

I often wonder what would have happen if I had have had more faith in God at the time, and just as the entered the door instead of letting the them beat the crap out of me, got down on my knee and just prayed to my heavenly father.

The point is that, if we as christians don't follow our own rules from God who is going to ? after all it says "Thou shalt not kill." there is a fullstop there right after it in the bible, it doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill except in case of (enter here)", it says "Thou shalt not kill.".

Do not hold on to the flesh for dear life.

quote:

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Originally posted by Inner:
The point is that, if we as christians don't follow our own rules from God who is going to ? after all it says "Thou shalt not kill." there is a fullstop there right after it in the bible, it doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill except in case of (enter here)", it says "Thou shalt not kill.".

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Alright, if thats your argument, then why did God tell the Israelites to go into a land where they had never been, and wipe out the people that lived there? That was killing for sure, and God told them to do it. So obviously there are exceptions to that rule. Anyhow, the law was just to show us that man could not possibly be "good enough" to go to heaven. Yes, i still think that those things should mst definity be followed, except in extreme situations.

If you argue that all the killing and war done by the Isrealites was for the old testament... Where do you see that in scripture? And if you would use the Ear insident in the garden, the night Jesus was betrayed, and Jesus rebuked Peter for cutting off the soldiers ear, hears a few things to consider:

1.) Jesus said not to attack, because it was the time, and that he had to go to fullfill the propheses. He also said that if he wanted it, a legion of angels could dispatch those meager foes.

2.) Why did the disiple, one of Jesus' 12 selected friends and companions, care a sword? was it for show? No, it was for protection.

If you can find any other insidents of fighting in the new testament, put um up here, and lets try to figure out exactly what God's will really is.

Of course peace is saught after, and much desired over war, but sometimes you must war to accheive peace.

-Veritech

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Alright, if thats your argument, then why did God tell the Israelites to go into a land where they had never been, and wipe out the people that lived there? That was killing for sure, and God told them to do it. So obviously there are exceptions to that rule. Anyhow, the law was just to show us that man could not possibly be "good enough" to go to heaven. Yes, i still think that those things should mst definity be followed, except in extreme situations.

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I think you answered you own question in a way there, the Israelites (today called the Israelies) where ordered by God to go and do his will, surely since God made the rules in the frist place he also knows when/how to stand by his commandments, and keep us on his path to the end, thus sometimes war is enevertable, there is a diferents; story from the Bible, I forget what the names are.. but the Story goes, that a man was sent up onto a hill to kill his son because God asked it of him, when he got almost to the point of doing it, God stopped him from doing it. now if God had never asked for him to do it in the frist place he would have murdered or killed his son, but because it was an order from God, he was just following insturctions, can't blame a man for following orders from God can you.
(except there are limits to that, people today do things saying "oh God told me too" and it's obviously not the case)

quote:

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If you argue that all the killing and war done by the Isrealites was for the old testament... Where do you see that in scripture? And if you would use the Ear insident in the garden, the night Jesus was betrayed, and Jesus rebuked Peter for cutting off the soldiers ear, hears a few things to consider:

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The killing is far from over, look at all the unrest over there now mark my words there is going to be a war there soon, but look at what there doing it for, there doing for Jeruselem, because it's Gods house if you like a holy place, and he ordered the Israel to protect it.

Gods rules are simple, there not complex there are no loop holes. Satan likes to make you think "oh but there is a loop hole here" no there are no loop holes, no sub sections of ifs and buts and or amediums, it's clear and cut to the point.

This is why computer games are so hard to put christian values in because the very stones in which the concept of computers where made, was made for a voilent acts, take for instants; I like to play Sport Car GT, I like driving around the track raceing other cars apon the track nothing wrong with that at all, but.. if I was to swing the car around and start going in the wrong direction playing chicken with the on comming cars effectively kicking them off the road and damaging the other cars, what I am doing is being agressive because I am annoyed at the other cars winning, because I am not skilled enough to beat them. being agressive leads down a path that is negative, anything that leads to nagativeness will lead you into temptation, it doesn't take much if anything at all, the Devil is the greatest desiver in any history we know of, and he desives even christians into thinking yeah it's okay to play war your not hurting anyone, but its the act of what your doing to the partaking of it, there are a lot of emotions unwittingly to you that you have while playing voilent games, which can and do lead to other negative things. I am not saying that your about to go on a rampage thru a school with an uzi, although it is posiable, but what you are doing is going on a rampage within yourself.

Movies / TV / Computer Games, how we see the world comes thru TV and Movies, look at TV for instants at the beginning of TV you would have been fired from TV if you so much uttered the words "Oh my God" or swore at all, there was no sex at all period, follow it closely over it's history and you find they introduced all sorts of things over time, to todays TV which no one even rases an eyebrow if someone says "f-u" or some other swear word, children hour TV is filled with voilent cartoons as if making a joke of it that it's fun or good to punch someone in the face, and movies are even worse.

Computer games started off with Ping Pong I believe or some such, farely health game of bounce the block from one side to the other, travel the history and it's progressively gotten worse and worse, just like TV. and it is't just because we have better or more high powered computers today, they could have quite easierly made ping pong into a cow boy shoot'em up, but they didn't because they knew it would be unacceptable to the public, and that was before graphics got anywhere near todays standards, yet today, we have graphical people that look almost 100% real life, that we sit and shoot and we think nothing of it.

Anyway better stop might overload something )

Thou shalt not kill....

I believe that "Thou shalt not kill" is for killing for no reason or out of annoyance/anger/hate/rage/etc. However it's ok to kill in self defence, if a guy charged at you with a knife screaming that he was going to cut you like a pie and you shot him with a weapon and he died then that would be ok. Or how about another example, the USA invades Canada, killing lots of people, but Canada has been working on some high tech weapontry and killed all the US soliders, would that be murder? Is it wrong to kill in self defence?

In Christian games I don't think you should have the choice to kill humans or not, I think you should be able to knock out the human enemies and thats it. However killing other things (make believe creatures) is fine because they don't exsist and I find no problem with that.

(Expressing my views)

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So tell me, Who's the solid rock on which I stand? Jesus Christ is the solid rock on which I stand!
Two Guys Software - Rebels with a cause

Not real pleasant, as unlikely as it is.

As much as it turns the stomach to say it, I don't think it is even right to defend yourself with violence. I mean, in that situation, I doubt that I actually would sit idly by either

But what is the worst that can happen? You could start preaching to the axe-weilder, and if he cuts you down, then you die, but you die beleiving, and God will reward you for that. I don't know if god will reward you by using your own strength to protect youself. I mean that, I really don't know.

Suffice to say, in games, its a different story. In a game we make, that means we are able to set the rule, and I think it is not a good idea to enocurage anything unchristian, in this case being discussed, its murdering someone in a game. I don't think the option should be there either, if its not there, it can't be abused and send the wrong message.

I agree with Inner and definately see where he's coming from about violence being so deeply rooted in games. Scary stuff. And that piece of testimony you shared with us Inner, very very inspiring. Thanks heaps.

I belive it is right and just to fight for life, freedom, and defence. If the country i live in, USA, had not belived in, and fought desperatly for, repetedly, the values of the right to worship freely, live freely, talk freely, then we would still be being oppressed. If we had not taken up arms against an unjust system, nothing would have changed.

Thats not all: Think back to any storys you heard growing up. What where they about? David and Goliath. Samson. These men were respected and loved by there countrymen, for there valor. They wern't shuned because they used violence to do what was right.

For those of us not raised in a christian household, there were the heros of old: (in america) Daniel Boone, Davey Crocket, King Arthur, and other great men. What i'm saying is that we admire warriors for there physical prowes in battle. If this is not so, then why does the old testement have so much War?

"And from the days of John the Baptist until the present time, the kingdom of heaven has endured violent assault, and violent men sieze it by force as a precious prize - a share in the heavenly kingdom is sought with the most ardent zeal and intense exertion." Matthew 11:12, Amplified version.

I feel it is right for us to fight for what we believe, and to overthrough unjust laws: and if need be, unjust governments. There ARE circumstances in which War is not only exceptable: it is nesesary. It says in Ecclesiastes 3 read it all, i'm selecting a few verses, and it's not out of context) "1. To Everything there is a season, and a time for every matter or purpose under heaven: 3. A time to kill and a time to heal, a time to break down and a time to build up. 8. A time to love and a time to hate, a time for war, and a time for peace." I can't get much plainer then that: The Bible clearly states that there are times when war is nessecary an right.

Think about this, i carefuly considered your arguments, then went to the Bible, my info source. If you disagree with me, have at it, but back it with scripture.

-Veritech

Note: i'm not advocating all war, i'm just saying that there can be War in games, for the right reasons. I much prefure peace, but sometimes things need doing.

I'm a Christian myself, and I do play games that involve some scenes of violence. But in the end it's a bit of virtual fun. It's not like I'm going out with a shotgun and killing people for real.

We ARE allowed to have a bit of a laugh, it isn't a crime or against God to have fun.

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http://www.geekgirl101.org

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Hold on, you say you don't mind violence against animals? What kind of person are you! The RSPCA could kick your @ss for saying that.

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Regarding the violence against animals remark, i thik the proper context it was made in was that for food and what not. Not slaughtering for fun. If you need food, and kill an animal, its pretty hard to do it in a non-violent way. I suppose you could have a long chat to the cow to convice it that it should just die on the spot for us, because it'd be a jolly nice thing to do, but you'd probably starve to death before that happens

Anyhow, back to Mack's request for backing stuff up with scripture, all references are from New King James. :

1 Timothy 3:3
"
3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, F3 but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous;
"

Its talking about the virtues for those who wish to be bishops in a church. It talks about a whole bunch of virtues really, but thats one relevant here. If its good enough for a elder in a church, its good enough for me.

Titus 1:6 is talking about exactly the same stuff.

Romans 1:28-32
"
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
"

Most of the verese in the chapter is dealing with people who were christians, and have turned away from godly ways.

Hebrews, chapter 11. The first part of this is huge. It is about 30 verses talking about oodles of things aceheived by faith alone. One striking example is verse 30, "By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days.". God whacked down the walls, and the army of soldiers did nothing to do it. Of course, this bit adds nothing to the discussion, I just thought that part was neat.

Another set of examples is in Acts. All through out acts, the apostles are often captured, beaten, abused. But do they ever fight back? (The only time I can remember an apostle actually physically attacking was when Jesus was taken, and he lopped an ear off.) Instead of getting a big group together to bash up the guards and escape, they just prayed about it, and god helped them out if He saw fit to do so. Please point me out if I'm barking up the wrong tree.

Of course, relying on divine intervention is the right thing to do in real life, its pretty darn hard to put that in a game. How do you come up with an algorithm to simulate god?

And a open ended question, to which I most definately do not know the answer (I got this from novel I read many years ago): Mack, you said it was ok to knock them out. But what if you push him for example, and he fell badly, triking his head on a stone, and he dies. Have you sinned?

I don't know, thats for darn sure.

Phew, that was lots of typing. May God's holy spirit visit all of you, and me too

Oh, one other quick note. Where my wifr and I live, there is a divorced dad living across from our flat, and his son comes and visits every now and then. My wife is a teacher at the child's school, and he has major learning difficulties. And we came home after church, and I opened the car door, and I heard this sound, very very similar to the screams of anger you hear from a dying animal on those wild life documentires. It was FULL of emotion, pain, hurt. God knows what. I looked around, and there was this dad's kid curled up into a ball, literally screaming some horrid sound. It was so full of emtion, it tore right to my soul. We went inside to pray for him, and he queitned down praise the lord. Then a while later something set him off again, and he was screaming the same gutteral sounds, but with a repeating "I HATE YOU!!" thorugh it. All this from a 10 year old kid. Again we prayed, and it subsided once more. Could I ask for some prayer for this child. there is no reason why he should be filled with such demons at such an age. It was horrible.

Gods love to all,
Phil

1. Timothy 3:3 (and acts) is talking about a leader of the church. All the apostles were leaders of the church. That was there prophesion from then on. But they were not warriors, thats not the gifts God gave to them. I know that strength to fight is a gift: Theres sampson, and David's mighty men to prove that. The apostles were me who taught the law, and the good news: I don't belive it was the time for war while they lived. Since there is a time and a place for everything, It must have been a time in which they were meant to bring the message of God's love, not his wrath.

2. Romans 1:28-32 This is not talking about fallen Christian. NOTE: This is a long proof.

Let me explain. This passage gives us a glimps of a past race who disobeyed God, and in that destroyed themselves. This was a race that lived on the world before Adam: It was a race that was incredibly smart to start (most probably where the storys of Atlantis come from), but they gave themselves to sinful pleasure, and God gave them over to there own digenerate minds. Eventually God destroyed them with some disaster, most probably a flood.

Now i know most of you are thinking veri's gone loopy, but here my reasoning on this. first lets get the text i base these ideas on: Genisis 1:1-3 (theres more, but that's all i need.) Alright, verse one, God created the heavens and the earth. God doesn't make things that are formless and void: everything we see in creation is life. i think that there was millions of years gap between verse one, and two. In two, God is remaking the world again: the whole earth is covered by water, and it is without form. Next verse God says let there be light. This is extremly interesting. The word let means to give permision, but in no way does it mean creation. Here God is allowing something he turned off to come back on line. I can go on, but think this is enough evidence to back the statements ive already made. This also helps us to realize the why of things. For instance, why is the earth seem so old, if we can only accout for some 7000 years? answer: the earth is that old, but our race is not. Why are there these cave man skeletons around, clearly not human as we know it to be now. Answer: it was the bodys of the race (or races) that came before Adam's race. Many other puzzles, such as the falicy of evolution, and other things can be explained, and backed be the Bible, if you except the key point that God only creats good things, not formless things.

Antways, the point is it's not talking about fallen christians, but warning our entire race to tack warning less we follow that races fate.

therefore... i really don't see any evidence against war and kiling when it is nesecary. Eccclesiastes 3 can't be more clear in my mind: there IS a time to kill, and there IS a time to make war. Is there any talk about pacifism in the Bible? Is there anywere that it says you shouldn't fight against the unjustices that come against you? Most of the people in this world are sinners, not in right standing with God. Until God comes back, there will be war between the christians and them: If you aren't a christian, and are not a child of God, the you are a child of Satan. I'll do my best to bring you to my side, but i will not allow you to force your corrupt morals, or let you harm me, or my fellow christians.

Well, gotta go eat, may write more later.

-Veritech
PS, Demons arn't fallen angels: the fallen angels are locked in a room in hell, awaiting jugement. check it out if ya don't belive me. That leaves an important question: Where did demons come from? Perhaps the unregenerate souls of those races that came before us, and sinned?

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Originally posted by Phillip Martin:
Regarding the violence against animals remark, i thik the proper context it was made in was that for food and what not. Not slaughtering for fun. If you need food, and kill an animal, its pretty hard to do it in a non-violent way. I suppose you could have a long chat to the cow to convice it that it should just die on the spot for us, because it'd be a jolly nice thing to do, but you'd probably starve to death before that happens

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Hee hee. I don't consider people who hunt for food as being violent, I call it an act of survival. If you grab a stick and beat or constantly stab an animal to death I see that as being violent behaviour.

The idea of violent games is that they aren't real, it's just a bit of fun or a virtual punch-bag to let off a little steam. Just in the end, if you tell yourself "it's only a game" and not go thrashing your arms in temper each time someone in Counterstrike or Quake Arena goes and blows your head off, then it's okay.

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Romans 1:28-32
"28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all [unrighteousness],[sexual immorality], [wickedness], [covetousness], [maliciousness]; [full of envy], murder, [strife], deceit, [evil-mindedness]; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, [boasters], [inventors of evil things], disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, [unloving], unforgiving, [unmerciful]; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who +practice such things are deserving of death+, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them."

So in other words what we are told her is that even "practicing" (playing a computer game could also be call practicing the art of war or voilents.

[unrighteousness] - do we get any righteous enjoyment out of playing a voilent game ? (no)

[sexual immorality] - take a look at unreal tournament, the female / male form are sudjestive and immorally dressed, that could lead the mind astray.

[wickedness] - Diablo 1/2 humans can not kill the devil.

[covetousness] - people that play online games, are found covetous of the other supposed greatness.

[maliciousness] - when you fire your weapon are you thinking about giving him/her flowers, and teaching him about the lord. (no)

[full of envy] - people that play online games, are often envyious of others.

[strife] - the results of [envy / covetousness] people go out onto BBS and swear as those that have got the better of them hence "strife"

[evil-mindedness] - mindedness, it isn't an action but a thought, therefor even the thought of such things is punshable by death.

[boasters] - You see them all the time saying "I Rule!" - "I am the greatest" - "I.... <insert anything here>" even unto calling themselfs God.

[inventors of evil things] - can't say that these games that we play aren't evil, because as you've read above this voilent games aren't liked at all by God.

[unloving] - Are you expressing love when you shot someones head off there shoulders in a game?

[unmerciful] - is it merciful to do any of these things ?

Phil

With the demons aren't fallen angels thing, then why does it say in the Bible "Satan and his angels" or "Satan and his demons". Maybe the term "demon" is another name for "fallen angel" or "satans angels".

I told my wife about your inspiring story, and she was just as stoked as me about what happends. I'll remember that little piece of testimony for a very long time.

I used to play quake A LOT. I mean heaps I was the local quake2 champion for about a year, but my finace at the time (now my wife) was very concerned about it, and we talked about it, read the bible heaps, prayed, and we both decided it would be best for me if I stopped. It was too much of a focus in my life, and it was not developing good traits we thought god wanted us to have. So, its no longer a part in my life. I still find myself wanted to do the old rocket jump every now and then though

Its a constant walk for my wife and I, we're always reading up on things that god wants us to do, and releaise that if we really want to do it, we have to make some hard decisions along the way. Although, the longer we've been at it, the easier it is. Its tough though, I've seen lots of people take it too far, and be really downright wrongheaded about it, I just pray that I am not coming across to you all as such, I'm just sharing whats happening in my life and what I understand the bible to say.

He's blessed me so many times since then. I've finally found a decent loving church, without pettiness in it, gods moved my programming interests elsewhere into a permanent job, rather than quake, and its heaps more fun now. I just thank him for everything

Phil

Mack: If you need to let off steam might I sudjest that there might be something wrong into your life, for if your life was sorted you wouldn't need to resort to such things as voilent computer game to let steam off, I shall pray for you, that you take your problems in prayer to the lord, and I am sure that once you have done this, you will have peace in your heart once more, rely on the Lord the God, not a computer game.

Imsold4christ: Demon - fallen one

when God said "Do not kill", or in KJV english "Thou shalt not kill", I'm pretty sure thats what he means. litterally. God created all people as equals. If we kill people, that means that we are not valueing them as we should do. if they are dead, and do not know Jesus, then they have no chance of knowing him, or going to heaven.

Jesus told us that the two greatest commandments were

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength"

"Love your neighbor as yourself"

If you love someone, then you dont want anything bad to happen to them, or want them to be upset or disturbed. So if you love God, then you will not want any sin or evil to even exist. Therefore if someone is sinning, you will want them to stop. If this is *only* possible by killing them, then this is nessersary. However, killing them is in itsself a sin.

Jesus said "blessed are those who keep Gods commandments" and killing is definatly not keeping those commands. So if you can manage not to retaliate, or get angry, or sin, good for you! If not, and realise our sin, and confess it, Jesus will forgive it.

I am personally against killing, of any sort. But there are always times when I'm sure its practically, or totally, impossible *not* to.

So how I'd make the game stuff is this, it will probably only work in RPG type games, or somthing.

if you kill someone/somthing, then enemys will get tougher, and tougher, and nastier, and nastier. eventually you'll get to a stage when your fragging eveything in site. goodies will avoid you, and people who might have helped you will be more vary.

if you *dont* kill people, then they dont get as nasty, and you will get more benifits later in the game. perhaps you could have the nasties go away after attacking (but not killing) you. or get knocked unconsious, and wake up to find yourself taken somewhere by some kind-hearted chappy,
where you pick up loads of nice stuff really easily.

somthing like this.

MadProf

Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill" in the King James Version is more accurately rendered in the NIV as "You shall not murder"

The word for murder transliterated is ratsach. The definition of that is: 7523. ratsach, raw-tsakh'; a prim. root; prop. to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), espec. to murder:--put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er). (That's from the Hebrew Greek Dictionary)

Conclusion: According to the 10 Commandments there is given permision to kill others, so long as it is not murder (a selfish motivation).

Hope this helps a little in this present conversation

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

this is one of the things which makes reading the bible quite difficult. as english has not all the different words that other languages have, and also sometimes it gets odd translations.

you know how feminists are all against saying things like "men" rather than "people"? like in paul's letters he says "young man," ... in greek the word that is used for man is "anthopos", which means "men" *or* can mean "mankind", or should that be "personkind"?

Also "jealosy", which to us means somthing bad, in greek there are two words for it. Godly-Jealousy, and Human-Jealousy. *only* God can have the former, and it is what is meant when he says "is a Jealous God". Not in the bad sense, as we feel jealousy, but as He only can. He did make the intire universe, after all .

What I'd like to find, if I could would be a bible which has a translation of each word that is used. So words like these would each have a sentance or two per page explaining all different ways it could be translated. "Concise Guide to Greek" sort of thing.

Either that or work a bit more at learning greek myself!

MadProf

http://www.quickverse.com/

<on topic>
One goofy idea in the violence area: You have two universes, one for the "Bigs" (average sized folks) and one for the "Tinies" (mouse-sized folks).

Instead of people killing people, you could make it so when you shoot someone and it shrinks them to being really really tiny.

The computers in the Bigs universe constantly scan for these mouse-sized people and transport them to the Tinies universe. If you get shot, you too get to experience the tiny planet too. Tinies build robotic ships that are sent to the Bigs universe to attack and all that. This way nobody gets killed, but there is still difficulty and consequence for shooting/being shot...and it's funny. Plus you can blow up enemy ships that are robot controlled, not human/animal/etc. controlled.

I can see it now: "The War of the Bigs and the Tinies!"

Goofy enough for ya?

-Krylar

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Even though I belive strongly that killing is sometimes nessecary, I don't think it should be in games. Here's the reason behind that: Most people don't care when they should, or shouldn't kill in a game. Also, they get desensitised to violence, which isn't good. Even if killing and war is nessesary, it dosn't mean we should enjoy doing it, or protend to do it, as in a game. Therefore, my RPG is gonna be non-violent. Theres plenty of other things to do in a world then kill things ^_^

-Veritech

Interesting idea about the Bigs vs Littles. I think it has potential. When we create a game it can only be in 3 categories (some may say only two)
1: Anti-Christian
2: Neutral
3: Pro-Christian

I think we need to work on both Neutral (which Big vs Little could be) and pro-Christian games. Neutral games would be defined as games which promote good human values. Pro-christian games would promote good Christian values.

Veritech , Good on you for standing up to making an RPG without killing. I will be interested to see how it goes.

Anyway, I have to go to work (finally got a job!)

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

quote:

---

Originally posted by Inner:
Mack: If you need to let off steam might I sudjest that there might be something wrong into your life, for if your life was sorted you wouldn't need to resort to such things as voilent computer game to let steam off, I shall pray for you, that you take your problems in prayer to the lord, and I am sure that once you have done this, you will have peace in your heart once more, rely on the Lord the God, not a computer game.

---

That wasn't called for Inner, what is it with you, your always on my case about everything.

[This message has been edited by Mack (edited March 27, 2001).]

It's your choice if you chose to take it.

Anyways, I don't know what's wrong with getting rid of a "little steam". You cannot live life without getting worked up over something or other. Haven't you ever got so worked up over something that you had to let off a little tension by beating a pillow or a teddy bear? Battering a teddy bear is no different to blowing up a few buildings or blasting a few baddies on a computer game, otherwise we should start an enforcement agaist violence on teddies.

Chill.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Inner:
I didn't think I was on your case Mack, I was just trying to give you some christian advise.

It's your choice if you chose to take it.

---

You don't know anything about me Inner and you make pre-meditated judgements in the way you talk to me. Do you know what your message said to me? it basically said "Mackenzie your a poor excuse for a Christian, I'm going to pray for you to change your ways just because I am such a higher being than you"

Your message right now said to me "Mackenzie, I didn't do anything wrong, don't treat me like this! Now you either take my way and become a jammy candy coated sugar laced wussy Christian or you can go to hell in a hand basket"

You know what my message to you is:

"Inner, I use different ways for venting out stress, I lead a stressful life and I work out at the gym, go for nice long walks, spend time with God or play games to get rid of that stress. I'm not going to bend to yours or anyones elses will to turn me into a jammy candy coated sugar laced wussy Christian. I was spiritually dead for 10 years of my life thanks to people like that, I've just been reborn and I'm going to fight for my freedom to express my faith in any way I want."

Inner, I can tell that your going to be one of these people who are going to rise up against me and what we're currently doing. To you and everyone else who doesn't agree with my views or what I'm doing you might as well back down because I know what voice is really talking to me (Matthew 16: 21-23 NIV) and I'm not going to back down.

I'm not mad at you, I'm mad at your actions, it hurt me alot.

[This message has been edited by Mack (edited March 27, 2001).]

Inner, your comments may have been well intended, but they were certinaly not received like that. It was said in a way very reminisicent of paul's epistles to his brothers and sisters in other churches. In my opinion that is a bit high and mighty on this forum. Few of us know each other very well, and it is easier to receive criticism when you know somebody. Mack's comment that you don't know him is valid. You don't know him, I don't, and he doesn't know us. If someone you barely knew came and said something along the lines of "what you are doing is wrong, and I will pray for you, and hope gos shows you the right way", it would be difficult to stomach. It is very hard to stomach this sort of thing from a stranger. I can say these sorts of things with people in the church where I am, because we are close.

Mack: I suggest you take a step back, and calm down, and think about it. Consider that the comments were well intended, and were said with a loving intent, even if it did raise your hackles. It might have come across the wrong way, but being angry is not the solution. Take what he said, and decide in your own heart and prayer if what he said is Gods will in you, and go from there.

Who knows, I might be flamed a great deal now, by both of you, and that would be better than you two arguing and fighting one another.

One comment on your response mack:

quote:

---

I'm not going to bend to yours or anyones elses will to turn me into a jammy candy coated sugar laced wussy Christian. I was spiritually dead for 10 years of my life thanks to people like that, I've just been reborn and I'm going to fight for my freedom to express my faith in any way I want."

---

Sometimes it takes more courage and faith in god to not fight. To run in, fists flying is easy, holding back, and allowing them to hit you, all the while forgiving them is hard. I know I can't do it. I pray that I can one day. Mack, if you walk into a fight, while hating what you are doing, and honestly not enjoying hurting god's creations, then I say god bles. If you do this to ease your flesh's anger and enjoy it because it makes you fell good, then I would question your motives. But I don't know what you feel when you hit somebody, do weights, shoot an alien. Its all inside you, I can't pretend to be you and know how your feeling. If you know inside what you are doing is for god, and not to satisfy your own flesh, then I say you god speed and god bless you for doing it.

God bless.
Phil

When I play violent games I don't show any sort of emotion. I escape in the game, I'm not saying that I'm going to turn on all of you at some CCN meeting place, what I'm saying is that I just leave all the stuff from real life and just do my thing in the game. I rarely resort on violent games to solve my problems, but if I get in a big verbal fight and I really *REALLY* want to punch that person, then I'll go take it out on some digitized baddies. After that I do feel refreshed, if I didn't do it then I would probably take it out on that person or have a grudge for that person or something. Remember also that I work out, go for walks, talk about the problem or talk to God about it.

In real life, I am not a violence proned man, I try everything I can not to get in a fight, however if it's the last thing and the problem is getting bigger and bigger, then I'll do it. I hate war, I hate killing people, I hate hurting people, but in self defence (for someone's or my life)I would do all of the above.

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A person's faith is not judged by what he says about it, but by what he does about it. - Unknown
All men need a faith that will not shrink when washed in the waters of affliction and adversity. - Unknown
He who dies with the most toys still dies - Faithbomb
If you fear death, you're already dead. - Kaleb Silvermane (Revelation)
I don't believe in Religion and either does God - Mackenzie Ponech

Unfortunately there is a big difference between theoretical Christianity and real life Christianity. I hate violence too, but I know when the emotions I have bottled up for weeks come out (and they always will eventually) - for some reason violent actions help me release it.(I am not justifying violent actions! - just stating a fact that everyone knows.)

For example, once I played golf and to every ball I gave the name of one of my employers. (I never hit golf balls so far that day). Another way that got rid of stress for me was getting out the playstation and playing Time Crisis with the plastic gun. (You can't get more virually violent than that)

It does sound sweet that God can take away the anger and stress in life with just a prayer, but in real life THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN! Yes, talking to God does help, but usually some form of physical exercise is needed - such as walking, doing weights (I did that for a year, but working out with beautiful women didn't help much), jogging etc.

I am sure I will get some comments from some of those "sweet" christians, but before you comment - HONESTLY LOOK AT YOUR LIFE AND TELL ME HOW YOU LET OFF STEAM!

Well, that's my two bob's worth.

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

In response to Inner's little blip to me... I assumed everyone here thought that demons were fallen angels and therefore did not see the need to state them as such. It's just easier to say "demon" than "fallen angel." But I guess from now on I will call them that here.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Veritech:
Let me explain. This passage gives us a glimps of a past race who disobeyed God, and in that destroyed themselves. This was a race that lived on the world before Adam: It was a race that was incredibly smart to start (most probably where the storys of Atlantis come from), but they gave themselves to sinful pleasure, and God gave them over to there own digenerate minds. Eventually God destroyed them with some disaster, most probably a flood.

Now i know most of you are thinking veri's gone loopy, but here my reasoning on this. first lets get the text i base these ideas on: Genisis 1:1-3 (theres more, but that's all i need.) Alright, verse one, God created the heavens and the earth. God doesn't make things that are formless and void: everything we see in creation is life. i think that there was millions of years gap between verse one, and two. In two, God is remaking the world again: the whole earth is covered by water, and it is without form. Next verse God says let there be light. This is extremly interesting. The word let means to give permision, but in no way does it mean creation. Here God is allowing something he turned off to come back on line. I can go on, but think this is enough evidence to back the statements ive already made. This also helps us to realize the why of things. For instance, why is the earth seem so old, if we can only accout for some 7000 years? answer: the earth is that old, but our race is not. Why are there these cave man skeletons around, clearly not human as we know it to be now. Answer: it was the bodys of the race (or races) that came before Adam's race. Many other puzzles, such as the falicy of evolution, and other things can be explained, and backed be the Bible, if you except the key point that God only creats good things, not formless things.

Antways, the point is it's not talking about fallen christians, but warning our entire race to tack warning less we follow that races fate.

---

A lot of this seems to be speculation. That's not necesarrily bad, it just means you need to offer some more support to your points before I even think about buying it. I got a set of verses here that challenges your millions of years in a day theory.

Exodus 20:8-11 (NLT)
"Remember to observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days a week are set apart for your daily duties and regular work, but the seventh day is a day of rest dedicated to the LORD your God. On that day no one in your household may do any kind of work. This includes you, your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, your livestock, and any foreigners living among you. For in six days the LORD made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them; then he rested on the seventh day. That is why the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy."

Six days a week. I believe that implies a mere 24 hours per day, yes? Then it says that the Lord made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them in six days. In order to read in context, we are to apply the previous definition of "day" to verse 11, as given in verse 9, which is that a day is 24 hours. I looked through a couple different translations and it's still the same (you just got to look a little harder for it).

I apoligize if my wording isn't very clear. It's 3:50am over here in Oregon, USA, and I'm bushed.

†Caleb†

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imsold4christ:
Six days [b]a week. I believe that implies a mere 24 hours per day, yes? Then it says that the Lord made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them in six days. In order to read in context, we are to apply the previous definition of "day" to verse 11, as given in verse 9, which is that a day is 24 hours. I looked through a couple different translations and it's still the same (you just got to look a little harder for it).[/B]

---

We may automatically presume that "6 days" is indeed 144 hours, but if you remember what Jesus said that in heaven time is of no importance. A day in heaven could be a million years on earth, and a day on earth could be a million years in heaven. Time is an illusion so what we perceive as 6 days could have been 6 million years. But because man cannot live that long we choose 1 day out of 7 in which we remember how God created us and gave us life.

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And as far as Christ saying that time does not exist in heaven. I do agree with that, but Jesus did not say it, only Peter did

2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

This is only referred into the context of that Jesus is coming back (Yipee) , and that God is not slow in keeping this promise.

I like what you say Caleb - that creation happened over 6, 24 hour periods. As Christians we need to take the bible as it reads (in a literal way). Once you start saying every day represents a million or thousand years, then maybe Jesus was on the cross for 3 million years (instead of 3 days). I find it easier to believe what the Bible says, than to find other explanations just so that scientists (who don't even agree with each other about how old things are on this earth) are happy.

Arrrrrghhhh. Nice to get that off my chest.

Revelator!

PS. That is why my Sabbath is on Saturday. It is the crowning event of the creation (on the 7th day he rested), and if God rests on that day - I am going to follow his example.

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www.revelatorgames.com

we have a physical body, as well as soul/mind/whatever. both of them have requirements, both are important to each other.

I find that i sometimes cannot relax, or even read the bible, if i am *very* angry. Often the way to calm down is to play a game, get some physical exercise, program, draw, or somthing like that.

by the term "letting off steam", you dont nessisarrily (argh! spelling!) mean that your angry... think about the term literally. Using up energy. If you've got a load of energy inside you, which can be caused by anger, or by hearing a joke, or somthing really great, then you need to let off steam. with a joke, its let out with laughter, with other things, you might want to yell, if your feeling angry, then often you need the same sort of thing.

Anyway, often older people (i mean, much older people, like that 110+ year old who sits half way down the church, and knows everybody) dont get angry so often, or so much. This is all part of the same thing... Younger people have more energy, and so need to "let off steam" more. Also people who have more stressful lives (school, work, people, etc) i think have the same thing.

Playing a computer game is one way of doing so, and as long as you dont get too violent, I dont think that it is a bad thing. As long as you *are* letting off steam, and not, by playing the game, adding more steam that needs letting off, its not a bad thing, I'd guess. like with the golf balls, banging them hard with your club is going to let off steam, and afterwards I'll bet you feel a lot better, and less wanting to go and *really* bang the heads of the people. I have one of those swing-ball things, so I do the same sometimes. I know that I feel a lot less like bashing people afterwards...

just some thoughts, I dont know if any of it is fact, and I havent medical evidence, or anything.

MadProf

quote:

---

Originally posted by Revelator:
And as far as Christ saying that time does not exist in heaven. I do agree with that, but Jesus did not say it, only Peter did

2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

---

I stand corrected.

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So please don't take offence, I have no wish to enter into a flame war with anyone, we are all christians here believing in the same God & Jesus, we should be able to discuss or views together without resorting to flame wars.

I don't mean to angor you, but I will speak the word of God as I read it.

And your right in a sence, "jammy candy coated sugar laced wussy Christian" there a lot of them, they get up on sabbath morning, walk into church with pride that they are there, sit down prase God and listen to a preacher for an hour or so, then wonder off home content, my point of view is that it's not enough to stand infront of Gods people and talk, the people want a message that is soothing to the ear, the whole point of church is to relax sure, but even on the sabbath Jesus talked to the sinners.

---

"MAT 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." KJV
"{26:52} Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place,
for all those who take the sword will die by the sword." -web

or .. if you pick up a weapon, you will die by the weapon, surely if you pick up your fists as weapons to strike at someone it means the same thing, so if you pick up your mouse of keyboard as to control a weapon you'll die by it.

also as christians we should remember the following;

"Joh:15:19: If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Joh:17:14: I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh:17:16: They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world."

Live in the world, but not of the world.. this means to be, that worldly things are bad and could lead you astray from the lord if misused.

"Jesus and anger
M't:5:21: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
M't:5:22: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca [vain, empty, worthless, only found in Matt. 5:22. The Jews used it as a word of contempt. It is derived from a root meaning "to spit."], shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
M't:5:23: Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
M't:5:24: Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
M't:5:25: Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
M't:5:26: Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing."

Raca - another translation, spend of lot of time trying to find out what that word ment.
"-(Roughly translated "fool" but means "You good-for-nothing
moron!"))
#Mt 5:22|"

I think I should share another testermony with you, because it fits here;

before I came to the lord, I was of the world and used to play such voilent games, such as unreal tournament, now I would play these games, and be very involed with what I was doing, and giving birth to all manner of swear words when I didn't perform well, and more over would go into forums much like this one, and abuse the admins for there lack of support and maintainance of the server, and abuse people a long with it, my pornography grew during this time also, until one day when I startered to return to the lord, I sat there doing these things and shoting away and suddenly I stopped.. a voice clear as bell within said, "STOP". so I obendantly did so, and then throught what am I doing... why I am I wasteing this time sort as it is with this, so I didn't waste anytime, I pulled the cd out of the drive put it in news paper and snaped it's evil hold on me that made me an ugly sight before the lord, since snapping that cd, I've gone on from deleting all my pronography to praying for help to give up smoking, and I also said to the lord before any of this started, if I am to follow you, grant me this request that others follow with me, that I might help others along my travel to you lord.

And low and behold what do I find on the very aboard that I was abusing people, but a topic created "Do you believe in God?" not by me, by someone I hardly knew, and it's currently 5 if not 6 pages long already, and has never been any lower than 7-8 topics down from the top since it's creation.

People want to hear this word, there is a growing change in the world, we should worry if our words are wrong that comes out our mouths, Jesus thru pray with make sure the words you speak are his and not ours.

Thru pure faith when I am angory I pray silently to the lord, "help me lord" and moments later I am humble again.

last quote.

"M't:5:29: And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
M't:5:30: And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
M't:11:6: And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me."

speaks for itselfs.

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A person's faith is not judged by what he says about it, but by what he does about it. - Unknown
All men need a faith that will not shrink when washed in the waters of affliction and adversity. - Unknown
He who dies with the most toys still dies - Faithbomb
If you fear death, you're already dead. - Kaleb Silvermane (Revelation)
I don't believe in Religion and either does God - Mackenzie Ponech

quote:

---

Originally posted by Revelator:
Firstly - let me respond to imsold4christ and very , in regard to humans being a second creation on this world.
Unfortunately the logic does not work - for death only entered into our human race because of sin. If there were a former race that died out before God "recreated" this world, then how did they die if death was only introduced when Adam and Eve disobeyed God???
If you try to come up with any other reasoning, then it is very wild speculation that people use to explain why scientists seem to insist they they have found human remains 60,000 years old or such. I think it is easier to believe what the Bible says about each day being a 24 hour period (Genesis is specific about saying that "evening and morning were the first day"), and believe that the scientists' dating methods are up the creek! Go to Answers in Genesis and they will pull apart their "facts" about finding human remains and fossils that are millions of years old.

---

What do you consider death? What happened in the garden was spiritual death, not physical. that came later, as a result of seperation from God. If demons are the disembodied spirits of the Pre-Adamic race, then obviously there still alive, since there not in heaven or hell. there pysical bodies died through Gods jugement, and a flood.

And in response to your statement, regarding creation, in every instance got said "let there be" whatever, which is not a word of creation, but restoration. Look it up in the hebrew, it's a good study.

But really, none of this is really important: beliving that demons are disembodied spirits of a pre-adamic race will not keep you out of heaven, or get u into heaven. The main thing is that there are demons, they are bad, but we have athority over them through Christ.

Peace in God,
-Veritech
PS I agree with Geekgirl on that thousand day thing: God often gives us glipses of things that were, or will be, so sometime, there may be more then one lesson in what someone says.

Thanks Inner for sharing your testimony . To me it is the greatest miracle whenever a life changes through the power of God.

Veritech, I think we are coming from 2 completely different points of view. Your view as I understand is that people have spirits that go somewhere when people die, bad spirits go straight to hell and good ones to heaven.

My view is different, that the soul is comprised of the body + the breath of God. (Gen 2:7), and when a person dies, the soul ceases to exist and Jesus calls death as "sleep"(John 11:13,14) ready to be awoken when Jesus comes to resurrect the righteous (1 Thess 4:16). That is when Jesus gives his reward (Rev 22:12) and the saints go the heaven. (I really don't want to give a bible study on this forum because that is not what the forum is for.)

So from the way I understand the Bible, there could not have been any previous life on this earth.

I will have to check the "let there be" in the Hebrew (don't have any resources on hand, but since I work in a huge Christian bookstore - I won't have any trouble finding out). But what you say sounds interesting.

But we are getting a little off the topic of violence aren't we???

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

quote:

---

Originally posted by Inner:
*snip*
Mack: I pray for everyones views when I disagree with them, so the lord will enlighten me, guide me, bla bla bla bla bla.

---

Hey, who called Rent-a-quote here? :lol:

May I just say it was people who talked like this that drove me out of my previous church, because they thought they were so perfect and used scripture as a weapon to insult me and my husband and accused us of sinful acts we had not committed during our time of engagement. What's more is that we went to this person for help because someone was trying to destroy our marriage and instead we were interrogated to the point that we almost said "to hell with church."

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But I don't know the full story do I .. it is not our place to judicate each other, that is the Lords job, althought some people in the church seam to think it is, our job is to follow the lord.

Correction I bothered to visit your site and spend a good 2-3 hrs reading, you know when I first saw your name appear, the holy sprit spoke to my heart and told me to becareful of you. now of course I thought he ment a fearful becareful, I was wrong and I am sorry for that, what he mean't was be full of care, becareful.

These people that you spoke of, unless they are repentant of there ways will be sent to the fire, but just because they did you wrong, doesn't mean you get a get out of jail free card either.

I can see both sides of the story, but I have to admit that I had to pray after reading it, because it made me so _VERY_ annoyed, using sorry abusing doctine to bash women or to met there own ends, and what is more.. calling themselfs Jesuses Army.. he already has an army of heavenly angels in heaven, and his father God, what Jesus needs on earth is people that love him and keep the laws of God, and spread this word. some of what they said about the laws of God are true that they told you, but and there is a SERIOUS BUT! the way they enforced them is wrong, women acording to my understand of the Bible are equal to men, not below or above, they read to much into Genisis, it even states that in the Bible when a woman and man marry they are one flesh, if you have a 2 foot stick and 1 foot stick, and you nail the 2 together you'll never ever no matter how or which way you put the 2 get an even oneness of both sticks, however if both sticks are the same length then they fit together just great, so surely if this is the case a woman and man are equal before marriage also.

he was right about the heavenly treasure also, but he has it upside down, for it also says in the bible if you do right by Jesus here and now, he will reward you now, but what it is meaning I think really that passage in the Bible is don't hold any value of things here in this world, for the gifts in heaven will be far greater.

I am deeply upset that you even class me as this type of person, and I am very sorry please forgive me.

[This message has been edited by Inner (edited March 31, 2001).]