so,
how about Christians playing violent computer games? i.e through out a whole scale of them from say tekken, street fighter, mortal combat, diablo, quake 3, half life, Unreal tournament, manhunt, grand theft auto etc?

is it permission and good for christians to play any? or all? of these?
where is the line? what are the principles? What does God say about these.

one thing that has bothered me, is that many people see it completely as a non issue (meaning not even to be thought about, study the bible about, or prayed about)

also another thing that has bothered me, is the whole "as long as it if fantasy" logic, that says that playing games like manhunt can be fine, because its not real violence, and just fantasy. Yet would you think Jesus would come over and play such games together with you?

the question in fullest form would be this

Is it okay for christians to gratify the lusts of the flesh regarding violence through the entertainment media (whether games, movies etc), and are their any boundaries at all?

there is violence in the bible, God even does violence in judgement (Holy and Just judgment..
Yet Computer games are wired that the violence not to show reality or such, but for pleasure.. where games reward you for violence specifically, and in many games such violence is the MAIN focus on the game.

what sort of violence can be Godly?
i know of the violence in the bible that is acceptable,
it is always Just and ordained by God, God didn't allow the israelites to take over canaan until the iniquity of the people already living there had been reached, and such violence was judgement..
However God says many a times that he takes no pleasure in punishing or judging the wicked, but wishes that they would be repentant.
I believe that God takes no pleasure even in the final judgement , of all humanity, angels and the devil himself.

I believe God even loves the devil, and is deeply saddened by the whole mess of sin etc, remember the devil in one sense was God's "greatest" and most beautiful creation before he sinned.

i personally believe the desire to get pleasure from violence is sinful, just as the desire to get pleasure from illicit sex is sinful (whether real or fantasy)

Both are sinful to God , though to "christian culture" (well discounting the churches that encourage cohabitation, excourage christian couples to use pornography to sparken up their sex lives, or churches that accept gay and lesbianism and normal, order such as leaders, and want gay/lesbian marriage).. but in mainstream christian culture, sexual sin is seen as such a sin (whether real or fantasy), while violence in entertainment is looked upon as acceptable by many..

But our standard is not our "church culture" but our Lord and our God - Jesus.

so often christians get their list of sins they deal with (the sins (and things) that are looked down at by their "christian culture club" but have no problem with sins that are tolerated by that same club..
here are some examples (not neccisarily sins)

in some christian cultures, drinking one drop of alcohol is enough to excommunicate you, but in others drinking is acceptable and normal and ok (even to an excess)
the same with smoking..
i know a kiwi who was playing golf with a group of texans, he missed a shot and said "bugger" , the whole group of christians looked at him like he just commited the unforgivable sin, while they were standing their smoking huge cigars.
to some christians wearing makeup is wrong and looked down up.

so lets not base the standard of things by our culture, whether the secular culture we live in , that has often desensisited and even duped some of us, who feed from it and its entertainment more than we feed from God, but also not settle for the standards of our local "christian culture"
but come back to God, and find our standards and principles for living in Him.

anyway back to the question.
Is it okay for christians to get pleasure for violent entertainment?

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

The ends of Rom 14 and 1 Cor 8 tell me that:
- if I doubt that it's OK, or if I'm in the presence of someone who would stumble into sin because of my actions, I should refrain.
- if I'm not in the presence of someone who would stumble, and if I have faith that what I'm doing is not wrong, then I may proceed

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I'd say that games like "Grand Theft Auto" would definitely be crossing the line. Not only is it insanely violent, but it also embraces a very anti-Christian theme. Lawlessness. And they take it and make it fun!? This can be very dangerous, because extreme violence is now only one of many dangers being expressed through a large number of secular games. I don't play Quake myself, so I can't comment much on that yet, but I have played many Final Fantasy's in the past, and although they aren't very violent, they sure are occultic, they mock God (FFX), and carry many suggestive themes. I don't play them anymore though (Thank God)

With that said, if a game isn't unnecessarily violent or bloody, and doesn't carry an occultic, or bad message then I can deal with it.

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Atomic Team Entertainment
http://www.atomicteam.com

God Bless,

Karl

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

But hacking a few pixels apart, where they're obviously fantasy or war themed games doesnt' fill me with any manic pleasure or make me want to harm anyone in the real world.

Tis a different story for the kiddies though. I'm sure that they need to be at a certain mental developmental level before they can cope with them. Not necessarily a spiritual level.

I for one am totally against seemless violence. Violence for the sake of shock effect and for the sake of just being violent. I also hate any kind of killing humans in games, this is a personal thing.

Those who create or help with christian games, really need to watch what we listen to and watch on the screens. We are trying to create games that glorify God. Lets not try and decensortise ourselves.

--D-SIPL

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If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that suggests you tried

God bless,
Matt

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(null)GAMES
discussing games vs. art vs. life
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http://www.nullgames.com

edit: fixed broken urls

[This message has been edited by nfektious (edited May 03, 2004).]

quote:

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tekken, street fighter, mortal combat, diablo, quake 3, half life, Unreal tournament, manhunt, grand theft auto etc?

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I played Street Fighter 2 a lot, it was an awesome game. I never played Diablo, but it looked really good and if I ever see it again in the bargain bins, I would buy it. I would never consider buying or playing the other games you named.

--D-SIPL

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If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that suggests you tried

Yes, Diablo in many languages refers to the devil. They all derive from the Greek "diabolos" which is translated "devil" in the Bible. In the game Diablo 2 (not sure about Diablo 1, never played it), Diablo and the forces of hell are trying to rise in power and destroy the world and turn it into an outpost for hell. The object of the game is to stop this from happening. At the beginning of the game, it's mostly just hacking at monsters and collecting gold, but as the game goes on, you learn that you are aiding heaven's forces in fighting against hell's forces. Heaven's forces, through the guidance of an Archangel, eventually recruit you and support you as you progress further and further towards the final goal of confronting and defeating Diablo himself.

This game was not developed by Christians (as far as I know). Yet it has the same sort of theme or plot as many combative Christian-type games: fight demons, defeat evil, help the needy, etc. As such, why is Diablo "bad" to play, while other similar games (War in Heaven, Eternal War, etc.) are not? Is it dependent on the developers being Christian, or is it more?

Discussing Diablo 2 might be worthy of its own thread.

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I wouldn't advise playing Diablo. Afterall the word Diablo is spanish for satan i believe, and the game looked pretty occultish to me imo.

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Since the bible is filled with people battling demons and casting out demons, and acts of magic being performed by Moses, Jesus and others, and alchemy being performed by Moses, you would have a hard time explaining to most people how it is ok in the bible (which is supposed to be reality) and not ok in a game that is supposed to be "fantasy".

quote:

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Originally posted by D-SIPL:
I wouldn't advise playing Diablo. Afterall the word Diablo is spanish for satan i believe, and the game looked pretty occultish to me imo.

--D-SIPL

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Confession - I played and beat Diablo. Didn't buy the second one.

As someone mentioned, it is portrayed somewhat as good versus evil. Like Hero's Quest but your end opponent is the bad guy ... hmmm... Catechumen did that, so did Ominous Horizons (although I can't recall if OH was saying the bad dude was just a demon or the devil himself). Of course on diablo, you had manna (hmm.. Eternal War has mana) and spells and things, so some parents would avoid it.

The true evil in the game that makes it no fun is if you play multiplayer! With Battle.net, tons of people trying to take your items and being dishonest. At least the digital demons were more obvious in their intent!

Tim

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Called by God. The passioned plea of a father. The journey awaits at Jarod's Journey.

quote:

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Originally posted by Miami Brice:
Since the bible is filled with people battling demons and casting out demons, and acts of magic being performed by Moses, Jesus and others, and alchemy being performed by Moses, you would have a hard time explaining to most people how it is ok in the bible (which is supposed to be reality) and not ok in a game that is supposed to be "fantasy".

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Personaly I don't think that the Bible and Diablo should be compared. Also, there isn't one occurance of Jesus or Moses performing magic. God does have supernatural powers, but it's his nature, it isn't magic. Using magic is using demonic power. I haven't played Diablo so I can't comment much here.

I don't think it matters if violent games are only fantasy, all sin starts in the mind, that's where the battleground is. I mean think about it, the Bible is "real". The things that happened in it are not "fantasy". While Diablo on the other hand is not real, so the violence and the theme isn't neccessary, it's imagined. So just because it's imagined doesn't make it okay to play. That could lead to other imaginations like thoughts of adultry for example. And that would mean that it's okay because the thoughts aren't "real".

Well, there's my two cents

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Atomic Team Entertainment
http://www.atomicteam.com

This is a personal preference and i haven't researched this to look for backup, and i am by no means slating anyone off.

I have only played the demo of Diablo II and uninstalled it as it didn't feel right playing it.

--D-SIPL

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If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that suggests you tried

quote:

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Also, there isn't one occurance of Jesus or Moses performing magic. God does have supernatural powers, but it's his nature, it isn't magic. Using magic is using demonic power.

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This is the arugment you would get from the average nonchristian game player. They see the miracles of the bible done By Moses, Jesus, etc as "magic". They see Jesus and others battling demons and "casting out demons", they see Moses performing alchemy by burning gold into white powder and dumping it into the drinking water.

I choose to see this as an evangelical opportunity and explain to them how and why Christians see things from a different perspective. Unfortunately, today many Christians seem to only want to show examples of hypocrisy to unbelievers, the old "do as I say, not as I do" thing. Christians today will whine about violence on TV and in video games, but seem to lack the parental skiils to teach their children the difference between reality and fantasy. I know as a kid I knew that the Three Stooges were "pretend" and that you could not go around hitting people in the face with pipes, frying pans or poking them in the eyes. Christians today are too willing to cast the blame for their problems onto secular society instead of being responsible for their own actions.

As for RPGs, I actually developed a ruleset for a Christain Pen and Paper RPG that dealt with Christian virtues and Christian lands and themes and was working on some modules for it, but the project was never released because I could not find an artist willing to work for free and do the sketches I need.

[This message has been edited by Miami Brice (edited May 04, 2004).]

as for teaching the difference between fantasy and reality to children etc, you are right to a point, but it is a balance.. if we consume entertainment that has ungodly elements (be it all in the name of innocent fantasy) and portrays an ungodly and worldly worldview, and if we do so out of proportion to our feeding on the word of God (getting God's worldview), though we are christian, we will have a worldly worldview in many areas - you are what you eat , well in the souls sense anyway.

also i know that the world is evil, and i wouldn't try to put my standards on non-christians and the world, it would be stupid to try to conform them to a moral standard (even if it is good) but without them being saved and in relationship with Christ. I don't blame all the ills of the world on the secular society, because i am to be a light in the world, and to make a difference, not expect them to change to be a comfortable place so i can be a comfortable christian. It is more about personal convictions as a Christian, in wanting to abide in Christ, in treating myself as the temple of the Holy Spirit, in growing in righteousness and Holyness because God said "i am holy, so you be holy yoo", in wanting not to lead others down a sinful path, in having a freedom and liberty that is submitted back to Christ.

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

Part of the reason I am making SR-3D is because I am sick of seeing all the 3D game creators solely being aimed at making 3D shooters. I am hoping I can get some Christian hobby developers who will use it to make some Christian adventure/rpg/non-violent games.

As far as TV goes, we watch very little of it around here. We usually listen to old time radio shows in MP3 format and watch DVDs of some of the classic movies like Ma & Pa Kettle, Abbot & Costello, and we do a LOT of reading.

its not a judgement on yourself , your character, or behaviours

God Bless

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

quote:

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if I'm not in the presence of someone who would stumble, and if I have faith that what I'm doing is not wrong, then I may proceed

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We have to be really careful here. I think Rom 14/1 Cor. 8 have been used and abused in the past when people write off sin as being okay because they are the "stronger Christian." (Note: I'm not accusing you of this BrianT ) There are still moral transgressions we can make which are sin. (The following may be labeled as personal interpretation I suppose: ) The above verses appear to be addressing a topic where people have given power to something that has none (here: idols, in and of themselves containing no moral worth, since they're pieces of wood, but when people worship them, the people sin, though the idols still have no power). On the one hand, we should make sure we're not actually sinning, but on the other hand--if this is a subject that is morally irrelevant--then we should have freedom in Christ in it. But we need to make that distinction, and I think that distinction is at the heart of this debate.

Brandon said it well:

quote:

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I don't think it matters if violent games are only fantasy, all sin starts in the mind, that's where the battleground is.

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To me, this pretty much closes the discussion on "reality vs. fantasy." Jesus says if you hate your brother even *in your heart* you have committed *murder*! It could be argued that hating someone in your heart is okay, because you didn't actually kill them; it was a "fantasy." I wonder a lot how desensitized we really are to so many things of this culture (me included).

And let's not forget pillaroftruth's post:

quote:

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I don't play violent games because I, being a sinner, am somehow addicted to violence. I see a violent video game, I buy it, play it and then can't stop plyaing it.

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If we were 100% honest with ourselves, would we be able to say we didn't enjoy violence in games? I know I have enjoyed it and probably still do (haven't played a game in a while, life too busy). Either way, I can say a large percentage of the general populace doesn't understand the significance and the horror of violence:

quote:

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the sick thing is, i've seen people in the cinemas getting enjoyment out of such sort of movies

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So many times (not just in high school or college, but from adults even) I have heard people talk about movies intended to portray a positive message by portraying the horrors of violence (Saving Private Ryan, the Passion, Patriot, Schindler's List, etc.) and they say things like "Did you see when (insert violent act)? That was so cool! *more description and enjoyment follows*." A whole lot of people completely miss the message. Plus, many of the people who would realize the horrors may be too afraid to partake of the media in the first place (i.e. my mom and the Passion). How many people will we cause to stumble (however unintentionally) by releasing something created for entertainment that contains violence and thus (again, however unintentionally) makes violence into entertainment? I don't think it's rash to say at least one person (more likely many times more than that) will take a game with violence and find entertainment through that violence (no matter what the intention of including that violence was, no matter how well-intentioned the creator was). The question is: can we accept this? Can we claim responsibility? Is it right for us to perpetuate this?

Also, I'd encourage everyone to read the Slashdot articles Matt (Nfektious) posted above. The replies (from Christians and non-Christians alike) are extremely eye-opening in seeing how we are viewed by the general public, how we are representing our Creator and ourselves (or at least how they see it, which is no doubt based in truth).

um... okay... maybe this was a worthless post. lol.

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Soterion Studios

quote:

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(more likely many times more than that) will take a game with violence and find entertainment through that violence (no matter what the intention of including that violence was, no matter how well-intentioned the creator was).

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especially when the main focus of alot of the game play is violence, its not just an aspect of the game, it is the game, ((as far as the player is concerned), the rest is just added flavour. i remember play that was done at church, about some teen wanting to go to some r rated movie with friends and hte friends mom, and the friends mom was all for it, etc, and the father was asking about the content, and the daughter was saying, well it only have a little of this or that in it (sex or violence, profanity or whatever).. and so the next day, the father made some chocolate cakes just like the daughter loved, but put a little bit of dog dung in it, but said "it still smeels good, it just has a little bit of dog dung in it"
but if we make a game or play a game that is mostly "dung" with just a few "redeeming' features.. we have to ask ourselves honestly, do these features really 'redeem' it.. or not.

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

quote:

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sorry if i seemed to react that way

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