how come there are no christian fighting games around? and i was wondering if you guy are ever gonna make a christian fighting game?

I REALLY would love to see a christian version of Street Fighter.

See ya soon,
Steve

now----if it was a christ based story combined with fighting--that would rock the casba---but if it is like

'keep the holy day sacred----hallllluuuuuken'

that would be dumb

but I am up for fighting games though--especially on pc since there has been next to none---you can't even really count OMF Battlegrounds as fighting-----that is more 3rd person action than anything

------------------
Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

[This message has been edited by bennythebear (edited April 01, 2004).]

well thanks.

steve

edit----changed my grammar a bit tho not much
------------------
Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

[This message has been edited by zookey (edited April 01, 2004).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by bennythebear:
an rts type thing was what i was talking about, but i reckon i'm picturing more of an rpg, i'm just into rpgs. those dragonball z fighting games would be so much better if they'd give you a character making option, maybe beat the game to unlock better moves, even unlock the ability to make a saiyan...or however it's spelled. i've had about 1 or 2 ideas for games, but i'm the daydreaming type when it comes to most stuff...anywho...

---

don't the best ideas start out as day-dreaming? any ways I honestly think a fighting game would work---it just takes a lot of work and a lot of daydreaming-------------plus within the christian mythos there is a lot you can look at--not necessarily in the Bible as much as after the Bible was complete----the dark ages, the christian persecution in rome---there is a lot where you could do a fighting game--------I never played the DBZ games--my fav fighting game is still Battle Arena Toshinden for the PSone---------man I wish someone would remake that it is long over due---Dead Or Alive 3 is excelent too---but DOA it is too easy to unlock everything in 2 hours------Soul Calibur2 was ok--but I hate the control scheme in it

------------------
Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

quote:

---

Originally posted by bennythebear:
personally, i don't see how fighting can be made CHRISTian, at least not in a deep, hard hitting way, of course games weren't made for that, they were made to relax and have fun with weren't they? oh yeah, i got skill, i beat myself in an argument.

---

yeah games were made for relaxation----also though I believe they can have an impact if the right amount of writing is put into it-----------but then again the whole fightng genre has been without impact for quite a while--so while you were making achristian fighting game---the amount of work it would require also would probably breathe life back into the genre in general-------the last great fighting game that I still love is Battle Arena Toshinden--there have been some fun ones since, but none has convinced me to come back even after seeing everything to still play a little bit more---once I finished Tekken and Soul Calibur2 I was done but BAT is always fun to play even though it is nearing 10 years old!! I think it was back in mid to late 90's when it was released---it was a psone release title---but I can't remember when psone was actually released hehe

------------------
Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

------------------
I Am Gods Kid!!

------------------
Soterion Studios

quote:

---

Originally posted by ArchAngel:
an Angel vs. Demon fighting game.
(also, for the two skins, when a character would fight itself, you just have the angel version fighting the demon version. considering the fact that demons were once angels.)

---

------------------
Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

------------------
Soterion Studios

So what do you think of this idea, I think it's alot better than my other ideas.

Later,
Steve

quote:

---

Originally posted by Steve:
Ok, how about this than, instead of a Street Fighter-type fighting game, how about a Final Fight-type fighting game. yeah, a great Christian beat'em-up game where you can select a hero to battle Satan's forces on the street. you go around the world and battle different demons and the bosses will be satan's generals and false deities.

So what do you think of this idea, I think it's alot better than my other ideas.

Later,
Steve

---

------------------
Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

After the fall of world spirituality, Humanism and Atheism,Satan and his army of Demons and False Deities(generals)decide to go to Earth to take it over.from his tower Satan sends his legions to decive the people of earth as well as cause chaos all over the world. 3 Christian young adults are chosen by god to take down Satan and his army and save the world.God gives them Super-human power to topple Satan and his Gang of liars and losers.

Well what do you think, If any of you have a better story, let me know.

Think about it - don't give me an off-the-cuff answer - and get back to me. I'm really interested in hearing what the basis is behind these ideas.

Thanks,
Matt

quote:

---

Originally posted by nfektious:
I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade...but really, how are any of these ideas different from what has been done in 'secular' games and how do these potential games equate to being 'christian'?

Think about it - don't give me an off-the-cuff answer - and get back to me. I'm really interested in hearing what the basis is behind these ideas.

Thanks,
Matt

---

Well i've asked myself that very thing recently.

In my eyes i wanted to make a game, that had secular appeal, but did not contain elements that i didn't believe in. I didn't want to kill humans in my game, i did not want to use magic or sorcery, i didn't want to use immoral elements basic.

The game idea i had is based on the book of Revelation and is based on the End-Tmes events. My game doesn't shy away from God, i do not refer to him as anything other then God, Jesus has no other name then Jesus. There are puzzles in the game that i wanted only to be solved by looking at scripture. Not in a corny way, but to get people reading the truth.

It's not in your face, yet it's not shying away either. The fact that the game is based on the bible, contains characters and events in the bible, contains scripture, i believe makes my game a 'christian' game. It's aimed primarily at a christian market as well.

I don't know whether this was relevant but just thought i would give my two cents. It was a little off-the-cuff and for that i'm sorry just felt i should put my thoughts down.

--D-SIPL

------------------
If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that suggests you tried

Does anyone else have anything to offer? I am a bit disappointed at just this one comment from all of those here I know are involved in building a game, especially one that fits into this topic/issue.

quote:

---

Originally posted by nfektious:
Thanks for your post D-Sipl. Very informative and explanatory. Based on what you said, your game idea seems good in this respect.

Does anyone else have anything to offer? I am a bit disappointed at just this one comment from all of those here I know are involved in building a game, especially one that fits into this topic/issue.

---

not to sound mean, but I don't want to reveal specifics on my ideas---mainly because I have 2 or 3 that I am still hammering out-------my whole purpose of putting my 2 cents in this forum is to encourage other people to first of all accept the idea that a fighting game can be christian and then second of all start dreamin it up.as far as being dissapointed, I don't think it is because people don't want to answer your question, but I personally mainly come to CCN for the TGS forums, and only click on these forums once in a great while (whenever an interesting one appears on the right hand side of the main page)-------I just think that people lost interest in this topic a little tho--------------and I guess my comment is don't let your standard definition of a christian game and standard definition of a fighting game keep you in a box---because God can never be contained in a box so why should we as his followers try to live in one? IE don't be afraid to pioneer new ideas----there is lots of ways to do a christian fighting game and hopefully someday some of my ideas will be produced then I can talk to you guys about it more (notice--I said 'someday' none of my fighting game ideas are even on a developement radar--I am just playing with ideas right now and writing down interesting ideas) cya

------------------
Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

quote:

---

Originally posted by nfektious:
I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade...but really, how are any of these ideas different from what has been done in 'secular' games and how do these potential games equate to being 'christian'?

---

forgot to answer this part heehehe------the main game doesn't need to be any different than secular games---but the story and the character of the game should encourage the player to ask questions like 'who is God and why does he love me' ie inspire the person to seek out the truth------but then again that is the problem I have with most Christian games------most try to shove the Bible down ppl's throats---when actually just presenting a small piece of truth will entice the player---and in other facets of their life the Holy Spirit would push them to seek the truth further, also referred to as planting a seed-----that imo is much more effective. But asking what makes these ideas different from Street Fighter is kinda like asking what makes EW or Catechumen different from Half Life or Walls Of Jehrico different from Bust A Move---the answer is gameplay wise, not much, but the story is meant to share a bit of truth--and I think if a christian game has secular production values and good writing, then it will be effective---there now you have a collective 2 cents from me to total like a whole 50 cents mwahahahahah

------------------
Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

quote:

---

Originally posted by zookey:
--and I think if a christian game has secular production values and good writing, then it will be effective---

---

Do you really, truly believe that? Isn't something backwards there bro? If Christianity is to be held to the same expectations as secular ideals, how can it be a lifestyle in pursuit of righteousness? To take it further, isn't that like 'dumbing down' perfection? There are so many Christian principles that tie into this foundational point, bro - don't you see that?
I don't mean to pick on you...you happened to say what you did and be the one to respond, so I have no choice but to respond to the issues because I asked the questions for that very reason.
My point here is that secularism in comparison to Christianity is really no comparison. They are two diametrically opposed standards; God's standard is - and always will be - higher than man's standard. Yes, we have freedom in Christ to do anything we want provided it does not go against scripture and God. Again, it is not about what we perceive is right or wrong - it is what God tells us is right or wrong. But, because we have that freedom - that grace and mercy - in Christ, we do not have the allowance to do wrong or continue in wrong. (See Romans 6.) Freedom to do what we want does not make us free from the consequences of what we do. The principle here is what I am trying to highlight, not the example.
If secular games are the standard by which we, as Christians, make games, we will never rise above that standard. What we do should be different and set apart from the world. I understand that the world will see what we do and ridicule it. And that is how it should be. We should expect negative criticism and the like - as much of it as possible. What I want to express is this: Do not let the works you perform in the name of God satisfy the world's expectations. Don't follow and don't get out of the way. Lead.

Here's the post from the other thread:

I'm glad this topic was "raised from the dead" -- so to speak. There are so many good points running through this thread on both sides of the argument.
One that was raised that I've been really debating is the context of the game itself. As was noted, games seem to either have a secular or a Christian appeal.

Is it possible to merge the two together?

I realize that this may seem like an odd question but I've really been mulling over it. We, as Christians, are "in" the world but not "of" it. Can this dichotomy be adequately simulated in an RPG without leaning too far in either direction?

It seems to me that Christian RPG's that are directed toward a more secular audience would need to be more gritty because that's what's liked. However, carefully blending a Christian theme into the story would then be very difficult.

How does one score "points" when both systems are incorporated into one?

Perhaps a Christian game could be developed where some "meter" is used to guage how close their character is to God. By completing the RPG in a Christian manner, the character gains certain "Biblical" benefits. However, when the character falls from God, they are excluded from his grace and therefore forced to employ more secular means of "survival" until they return to him (they could be immediately forgiven but their "conscience" is striken for a while, or something like that).

One concern that I have with this idea is that the player's may be inadvertedly introduced to secular concepts which run contrary to our Lord's thinking. I'm currently developing a FRPG called Ex Nihilo d20 and due to these very reasons I've placed a 17+ rating on it.

If the game can be done in a fun and flexible way which allows for the Holy Spirit to be at work in the player, it seems possible to me that a seed of faith could be introduced. In addition to this, a well developed Biblical background may actually work to lead someone to ask questions about the Christian faith.

Faith the size of a mustard seed can move mountains, eh?

Anyway, just some thoughts on the matter.

Blessings,
Dale

By the way I liked this idea:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ArchAngel:
an Angel vs. Demon fighting game.
(also, for the two skins, when a character would fight itself, you just have the angel version fighting the demon version. considering the fact that demons were once angels.)

---

This is a really cool idea -- making the struggle an internal one instead of exterior.

PS: I had a really weird idea where an On-line RPG is placed in the apocolyptic setting during the reign of anti-Christ. Both Christians and non-Christians could play it at the same time. In fact, if you had a very anti-Christian player, it might even turn into a hunting game where we Christians are the prey. The goal of the game for us (in this case) would be to convert (or escape from) the other player before they hunted us down. Although it's sick (please forgive me Lord if this is defintely not your will), it would definitely have appeal for both gaming groups with each side doing exactly what they wanted to do.

Ugh...I'm getting chills just thinking about this. On second thought, never mind. I'll stick with the original thought and see what comes of that.

------------------
Do not forget to entertain strangers,
for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it.

Hebrews 13:2 (NIV)

[This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo (edited April 27, 2004).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by nfektious:
Okay - I'm going to skip over alot of things you said and focus for now on this one comment you made:

Do you really, truly believe that? Isn't something backwards there bro? .

---

not really I mean by graphical and game play standards, back to my statement that most christian games are lagging--the story should be creatively written and gameplay executed perfectly, which as of now there are 300 secular games with those qualites to every christian one------that is what I am saying we should turn up the quality quite a few notches.

------------------
Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

we should surpass them! heh heh.

ooohhh... somebody likes my idea... haha.

------------------
Soterion Studios

We should rather, throw out our mindsets, adn rather build our foundation surely on Christ, prayerfully relying on God's creativity to influence us, submitting our ideas, art, vision back to Christ, walking in careful accountibility..

as for secular standard etc.. we should aim for excellence though
Christians in every area of life, should strive for excellence, for we aren't just to do a haphazard and slack job, but we are to do all we do as if unto the Lord, and in this case, it would definately be unto the Lord.

------------------
Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

------------------
Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

Excellence doesn't mean having the nicest, polished things/
For example, most Christian games are of a smaller budget, smaller teams than the biggest secular games, but even though they mightn't 'measure up' with certain measurements, they can still be done in excellence according to their scale. Sure some people maybe rubbish them, but if done with the right heart attitude and done in submission to God, and NOT done with compromising with the unholy standards of the world (i.e. gameplay that rewards players for violent acts, gratifying the flesh's lust for violence)
it can still be a game of excellence.

Sure its not going to compete technically and artistically with the latest greatest secular game, that has multimillion dollar budgets made by a company with 10 -15 years experience in making such games and game engines, but it doesn't have to!! It would however be able to compete (on the artistic and technological level) with secular games of the same scale.

Look at movies, there are some indie movies that are really really good. the authors don't have the history, experience,or money of a large scale big budget movie, and they have a small budget, and might not have any computer effects, the lighting, shots from helicopters and stuff, and even some of the acting mightn't be up there if you compare on that level, but they have some SUBSTANCE that despite 'inferiority' in some areas (because of their scale, not because of lack of skill or ability) their SUBSTANCE overrides that and they make their place. It intrigues me of movies in which there maybe 10 characters, all interacting in one scene - yet it is an amazing movie.
Christian games can be the same. because its going to take time anyway for Christian game companies to get up there technologically and with experience in the industry. and besides a lot of what we do achieve is because we are building on other peoples foundations (technically i am speaking) using engines that have had millions of dollars of r&d already put into them over their history.. and we can license that for cheap (comparatively)
but there isn't going to be a Christian game, that rivals a secular one in technical superiority without Money.(and even if we do make one, with such a label, it would be such a shame, if it turned out to be an abomination before him) and such large money for these sorts of ministries isn't flowing Yet. I believe in A God who is my source, and i have witnessed miracles of millions of dollars and such, and know how God can provide. Yet i don't see an alignment of Christians in this industry to his will yet for that to happen.
let me stress this. WE NEED TO ALIGN OURSELVES WITH THE WILL OF GOD.

Because we are still mostly in the mindset, of copying secular games, of compromising, of trying to entertain rather than serve God, of getting our inspiration from that which is not of God, rather than relying on God - the most creative being out there, to be our inspiration.. I would advise everybody here to research alot of scientific breakthroughs of our modern age that were made by Christian scientists who prayed, and despite their training etc , they could get the breakthrough, but in humble submission to God, God talked to them, gave them inspiration and knowledge , and that was the source of their scientific breakthrough. this is ever so more important for us, when this is also a ministry. We aren't to conform ourselves to the ways of the World, but be transformed by the renewing of our Minds, through abiding in Christ..

Until there is a death to some of our projects that we are striving in the flesh - more for our own self ambition, and lay our lives on the alter in everything, with submission saying "Not my will be done, but Yours Lord". And until we are willing to have prayer be a big part of our 'game development process' such breakthrough will not come for unless the Lord builds the house, the labourers labor in vain. I personally am busy enough in life to labor in vain.

But the good thing about dying to self , to submission to God unto death of our ideas, our visions, our everything - is resurrection. for unless a seed dies and falls into the ground, it can not bear fruit, but the resurrection body is so different from the original that you cannot fathom, like a caterpillar and a butterfly, and more so in the spiritual

who is willing to dare walk this path?

Almost every ministry and good thing from God has gone through this process ,even with like musicians who God told to lay down their music for a time (and be willing to never take it back up), so that God alone was their portion, and their music or art would not be allowed to be an idol. Yet God restored to them, and gave them 100fold fruit, using them for His kingdom. after the dying process separated our selfish ambitions that were mixed with the will of God, purged the flesh, to leave just the spirit.

Anybody here, who dares follow that journey?
its the only way in which we can possibly use our art (game making) for the glory of God , and the way that will truly please him..
If we just hold onto our own ideas, and do it our own way, we might end up unknowingly taint the name of Jesus Christ and in the true sense of the biblical meaning - take his name in Vain.

Karl

------------------
Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

[This message has been edited by klumsy (edited April 28, 2004).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by klumsy:

Excellence doesn't mean having the nicest, polished things

---

polish isn't always what I am talking about though--graphical quality is a plus (and usually achievable with out much budget) as is writing---there are many secular games out there that had a lot of $ behind them but never achieved quality (Enter the Matrix and Devil May Cry 2 being 2 excellent examples)many indie companies have proven that quality is a mixture of excelent writing and blood sweat and tears----I think part of the reason some christian games lag with this is that they aren't even shooting for the secular audience--------and why make a game that is going to preach to the choir? Why not make a game that has all the fun gameplay of secular games, but has a different character where you know something is different-----something different that makes you ask questions that eventually leads to the ultimate answer: Jesus??????? instead of making our own little mini industry why not live in the world but not of it and lead by example to the entire world instead of just a tiny little mini industry? that is why I really have to respect Stacy Orrico and POD--they are doing just that in music and should be looked to as real pioneers.

------------------
Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

quote:

---

Originally posted by zookey:
----I think part of the reason some christian games lag with this is that they aren't even shooting for the secular audience--------and why make a game that is going to preach to the choir? Why not make a game that has all the fun gameplay of secular games, but has a different character where you know something is different-----something different that makes you ask questions that eventually leads to the ultimate answer: Jesus??????? instead of making our own little mini industry why not live in the world but not of it and lead by example to the entire world instead of just a tiny little mini industry?

---

I just wanted to add that this is an excellent point. I beleive something needs to be carefully directed to a secular audience in order to introduce some Christian principles to a broader audience. I think we all agree that it is an extremely difficult enterprise to do this without compromising the faith. We're walking a very fine line here. However, having said that, I also beleive that, with guidance from the Lord, this can be done. It may have to be directed to an older audience though...The key is the maturity of the player, both age-wise and in a religious context...JMO.

Mr. Ex Nihilo

------------------
Do not forget to entertain strangers,
for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it.

Hebrews 13:2 (NIV)

[This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo (edited April 29, 2004).]

A question for everyone here (be honest):

Is our desire to design a Christian game motivated by our faith in Christ?

or

Is our desire to play games being concealed in Christian trappings?

or

Is Christ motivating us to produce a Christian game in His Holy Name?

Some may find numbers 1 and 3 the same but I don't think they are.

No offense is intended toward anyone. This is something that I'm praying about and seriously looking into myself. I thought others might want to take this time a examine themselves within this context too.

Blessings in the Name above all other names: The Messiah Yeshua!
Mr. Ex Nihilo

PS: Do these forums have a spell checker available before we post?

------------------
Do not forget to entertain strangers,
for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it.

Hebrews 13:2 (NIV)

I would love to choose answer 3, but I'd need to go into more prayer before I can say that.
I can say I do have a desire to create games.

------------------
Soterion Studios

quote:

---

Originally posted by zookey:
...instead of making our own little mini industry why not live in the world but not of it and lead by example to the entire world instead of just a tiny little mini industry? that is why I really have to respect Stacy Orrico and POD--they are doing just that in music and should be looked to as real pioneers.

---

I do understand your point here, but there are some things for all of us to consider. Although the people you mentioned claim to be Christian and are 'out there giving it all they got' does not make them any less human than you or I. And I am not condoning any type of lack of support for those in ministry (the greatest being prayer on our part, not necessarily the purchasing of products). We must be aware of the human element and not lift that up beyond where it should be - in submission to God at all times.
One other aspect we need to consider is the distinction between calling, desire and necessity. They all can be used together but they cannot be used interchangeably. Calling is a direct leading by God; desire is purely driven by self; and, necessity is forced motivation by circumstance. An individual who only has one skill - programming in this case - can experience all three of these, especially when between jobs (ie, unemployed). But, someone who is equally a skilled artist and a skilled programmer is less likely to experience necessity as compared to experiencing desire and/or a calling. Someone who is totally unfamiliar to the elements of game development (in the sense of being a programmer or being an artist, etc) is more likely to experience desire as a result of an interest in working in the industry than a necessity to find work and possibly even a calling to the industry. I hope all of that is clear.
Another element to consider is the whole issue of ministry. Certainly someone who is in the industry and has a wonderful testimony for God can be involved in ministry as a result of their testimony. In this case, it is by the person's testimony that there is a ministering to others. Someone not involved in the industry as a working professional (ie, hobbyist, etc) is going to have a difficult time having an effective testimony in the industry, and thus have a difficult time in ministry. But, this is not to say God cannot work through this individual in spite of his/her abilities.
We have to remember that God uses us where we are, not where we want to be. It is God who puts us where He wants us to be and where we will be effective - if (big "if") we are in accordance with His will. Otherwise, as Karl pointed out, it is a labor in vain. And this is the distinction of a calling: a calling by God takes us from where we are and puts us where He wants us to be.
This is somewhat similar to what Mr. Ex was hitting on in his post.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mr. Ex Nihilo:
A question for everyone here (be honest):

Is our desire to design a Christian game motivated by our faith in Christ?

or

Is our desire to play games being concealed in Christian trappings?

or

Is Christ motivating us to produce a Christian game in His Holy Name?

---

My thoughts on these questions are opinion, but opinion based on my understanding of what God wants and how God works in us.
In reply to #1: I see nothing wrong with a game as a testimony of what God has done within the life of a person, or even those around a person. But, I am not sure that all such testimonies would allow a game be an effective expression of that faith and testimony.
In reply to #2: This is something to watch out for with all seriousness. So many desires can be wrapped and labeled Christian that were desired of the flesh and not a result of trusting in God (consider the meaning behind Psalm 37:4 in context with the verses before and after it). Remember the desires of other people who have placed the approval of God on their actions and consider how different your approach is to theirs (I'm thinking specifically of anti-abortionists who have taken the power of life and death into their own hands, but there are other examples as well).
In response to #3: This is where I will ruffle some feathers and step on some feet. I have many responses to this, and I admit many of them are not 'open-minded' nor 'tolerant'. I do believe God can work in any way He sees fit. But(!!!), when did the Great Commission make the transition from people being directly active with other people to indirectly interactive? When did Christ use technology to further the Gospel? Sure, the Bible was made available to people all over the world as a result of technology. But was it the technology that made the Bible so appealing? Could it possibly be that it was God who caused so many people to want the Bible on more than just a physical level? You wouldn't suggest it was an afterthought on God's part to use this new technology? Do you see my point? If God needed technology to present the way of life known as Christianity, and the power of the Gospel for changing people from the inside out, wouldn't all these God-gadgets have been invented back then? I mean, really, think about it. I know it sounds silly, but that is the mentality we Christians take these days, is it not? But (!!! again), God told us to interact with people on a personal level. God wants us to live the testimony of the Gospel. God wants us to be shining examples (lights) of the truth in the darkness of the world. God wants us to stand out, not co-mingle.
Think about the illustration of light in darkness. When you are in a pitch black, dark room, and you turn on a flashlight, does it not stand out? Is it not an obvious difference to the surroundings? Sure, most times the light will send bugs scurrying away; but, there are some bugs that are drawn to light. The same with other animals. Fish at night. Deer and other woodland animals at night. (It is not coincidence, either.)
Think also about the Disciples of Christ - the twelve that were called to follow Jesus. Aside from the need for Christ to have a certain number of followers to be recognized as a religious group in the culture of the Jews at the time, these 12 men were all employed in some trade or public office before they left their employment and followed Christ. Each individual was called to a greater position. Their affiliation with a Rabbi (as Christ was viewed) caused them some social prominence, though obviously with cost to their personal life as witnessed later in scripture and recorded history (prison, torture, brutal death). But that same affiliation caused them eternal reward (with one exception perhaps) beyond anything - good or bad - they would experience on earth. Although Christ was recognized as a spiritual leader, it wasn't as though that recognition was comparable to being 'one of the gang'. The recognition was obviously of the scornful and mocking variety, as Christ and the Twelve made up probably the smallest sect in the Temple. Although the followers grew, the core group was seen as outcasts and looked down on by the prominent groups of the time (ie, Sadducees, Pharisees, etc). Even the Romans thought little of Christ and the Twelve - how could a small group be a threat?

I am not trying to be condescending or hateful in any way toward those who are involved in christian software development of any kind. There certainly is a need to provide children (and some adults) with educating/entertaining software in this day and age. But I would encourage those who do this to include advice to those who use your software to be active in seeking, and hopefully living, the life of Christ - reaching out to others in their sphere of influence to be that example Christ commanded us to be. We have to get back to a real and personal relationship with God, and not rely on the things of this world to help us do anything better than what God has created us for. We are his instruments.

God bless,
Matt

------------------
(null)GAMES
discussing games vs. art vs. life
---------------------------------
http://www.nullgames.com

however, our job isn't to witness. it's to glorify God. To obey God.
and in that job description, we should witness.
my point is, we're hear to do more than just witness. that isn't the purpose of our lifes. so thus, there are more reasons to make christian computer games then to witness. as I said before, I always considered christian games better for spiritual growth.
or influencing the market to make better, more moral games. (salt of the market)

------------------
Soterion Studios

------------------
Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ArchAngel:
but, Mr. Ex Nihilo didn't say to spread the gospel, he said for his holy name. sure, the idea of witnessing through a game never quite got me.

---

Yeah, you are right. But Christ told us to spread the gospel. No offense to Mr. Ex, but I'm gonna think more about what Christ said.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ArchAngel:
however, our job isn't to witness. it's to glorify God. To obey God.
and in that job description, we should witness.
my point is, we're hear to do more than just witness. that isn't the purpose of our lifes. so thus, there are more reasons to make christian computer games then to witness. as I said before, I always considered christian games better for spiritual growth.
or influencing the market to make better, more moral games. (salt of the market)

---

In glorifying God, do we not also witness? In being a witness, do we not also glorify God? What are we here to do, more than just witness? The only other thing I can think of is sacrifice - which is perhaps the greatest witness of all, as it is the ultimate expression of love. And to love God as Lord and Savior is to sacrifice all we put as priority in life aside to make God our priority. To sacrifice our wants, needs and desires for God and for others - even at the possible risk of death. The entire example of Christ is not only a pattern for us to live, but also applicable allegorically in everything we do. We have to remember our responsibilities as examples of Christ. We have to think in terms of the eternal.

quote:

---

Originally posted by zookey:
----being secular isn't necessarily being bad (i get the feeling that, when secualar is mentioned in this forum ppl automatically think sexually inappropriate and too much violence kinda stuff)----

---

Yes, I should choose my words better. 'Secular' is one of those terms that just connotates negative things. Perhaps I should use a different term from now on...what do you all suggest:
Ungodly?
Carnal?
Sinful?
Worldly?
Anti-christian?
Heretical?
Blasphemous?

I don't want to disguise the truth, or vice versa, so help me out a bit.

God bless,
Matt

edit: fixed a typo.

------------------
(null)GAMES
discussing games vs. art vs. life
---------------------------------
http://www.nullgames.com

[This message has been edited by nfektious (edited April 30, 2004).]

I thought it would generally be implied that doing something in Jesus' Holy Name was akin to witnessing and manifesting His Word in our thoughts, words, and deeds by the power of the Holy Spirit. In short, to give Glory to Him -- and therefore evangelize in the process of glorifying His Name. This is why I feel choice number 1 and choice number 3 are quite distinct.

Sorry if there was any misunderstanding.

PS: I think that secular denotes something being separated from God (like separation of Church and State, the state being considered "secular"). Bearing this in mind, I think the term "Godless" is appropriate. In the case where the State takes an active stand against (or tries to replace) the Christian faith (like as in Communism) the term could very justifiably switch to "anti-Christian". While I beleive many of these "secular" games should be considered Godless, I'm not sure if all would qualify as being anti-Christian.

Blessings,
Mr. Ex Nihilo

------------------
Do not forget to entertain strangers,
for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it.

Hebrews 13:2 (NIV)

[This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo (edited April 30, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo (edited April 30, 2004).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by nfektious:
Yes, I should choose my words better. 'Secular' is one of those terms that just connotates negative things. Perhaps I should use a different term from now on...what do you all suggest:
Ungodly?

Sinful?
Worldly?

Heretical?
Blasphemous?

I don't want to disguise the truth, or vice versa, so help me out a bit.

God bless,
Matt

---

i think those words are more accurate (I deleted ones I felt didn't aim at what we were aiming at)---because there are some secular games that are totally un-offensive----------------so yeah maybe we need to refine a little bit so we are all seeing the same definition so we don't misunderstand one another---btw just bought PainKiller the game looked awesome--and now I am ticked it has nothing but Occult symbols all around and yet you are supposed to be a warrior for heaven----I am a very loose kinda guy (ie I heavily believe in respecting the difference between fantasy and reality)----but it just incenses me to see the Pentagram used as part of a menu--just like it would tick me off if a swastika was used like that---glorifying an ugly symbol like that----the only up to PK so far is I get to see what the Havok2.0 engine looks like before HL2 comes out---other than that I will stick to UT04 for now I guess (saying that as if it is a sad thing to play ut 04 heheh I am just ticked I lost my money on that---no return policy at local game store with PC games)

edit--fixed grammar

------------------
Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

[This message has been edited by zookey (edited April 30, 2004).]

------------------
Soterion Studios

quote:

---

Originally posted by ArchAngel:
there are more ways that God would motivate us to make games other than spreading the gospel.

---

I can kinda see what you are saying---although if you make a game under the 'christian' label it would almost always end up spreading the Gospel---------but that is why I say Quality is important---because the quality of graphics and writing is the first thing the player sees----and thus is the first ambassador for your message-----so yeah I can kinda see what you are saying but I also kinda want to hear more of what you are trying to say ie elaborate please

------------------
Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

Your target audience can be both Christians and Non-Christians, I think it should be able to be enjoyed by both. Your game should be fun, but also outreaching.

Don't focus on your target audience when you create the game, make a game as a offering to God. What is pleasing to Him will be pleasing to anyone in someway (since every person is made in His image). Listen to God and run it across some God-keen people to keep accountable.

A game is a tool, a seed, an introduction, an inspiration - it won't work well as a supliment. This is kinda obvious.

Don't comprimise, if you do then your offering is spoiled and that sucks.

The technology is there, use it in a way that benifits your offering. If you want to make a 'on-the-technology-cutting-edge' game then go for it, if you want to make a 'retro' or 'classic' technology game then go for it. I don't think God cares and there are people that are into one, the other or both.

This is one that I grew into (once I was opposed to it, then God showed me up) and that I'm trying to spread; We are all in this together, so lets try to support each other. In the end we are all aiming for the same goal (using games and technology to plant seeds) and the goal is more important than all of us (because it's not about us anymore, it's about everyone else).

That about wraps it up for now, if anything else pops up I'll post it. I love you all.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mack:

Don't focus on your target audience when you create the game, make a game as a offering to God. What is pleasing to Him will be pleasing to anyone in someway (since every person is made in His image). Listen to God and run it across some God-keen people to keep accountable.

---

I LIKE THAT (XCUSE THE CAPS--AT WORK HAVE TO KEEP THEM ON)----NOT ONLY IS THAT WORKING FOR GOD BUT YOU CAN'T REALLY BE A LEADER IF YOU ARE TOO BUSY FOLLOWING POPULAR OPINION AND POPULAR CONVENTIONS------JUST THINK----IF EVERYONE ONLY DID THE POPULAR THING AND NEVER TOOK A CHANCE, THEN WE WOULD NEVER HAVE DANCE DANCE REVOLUTION (AND TRUST ME, FOR A DDR-AHOLIC LIKE MYSELF THAT WOULD BE WORLD-SHATTERING)-----SO YEAH DON'T FOLLOW THE SET PATH----BUT I LIKE THAT MAKE YOUR GAME AN OFFERING TO GOD AND THE REST WILL FALL IN PLACE

------------------
Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

p.s. I really have to buy eternal war. ARGH. haha

------------------
Soterion Studios

--D-SIPL

------------------
If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that suggests you tried

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mack:
This is one that I grew into (once I was opposed to it, then God showed me up) and that I'm trying to spread; We are all in this together, so lets try to support each other. In the end we are all aiming for the same goal (using games and technology to plant seeds) and the goal is more important than all of us (because it's not about us anymore, it's about everyone else).

---

I totally agree. And also, this can be done in almost any type of game, (Fighting games too) we just have to remember to make it as an offering to God like Mack stated. And remember, it's a game... keep it fun.

quote:

---

Originally posted by D-SIPL:
Also you need to make a game that interests you, because believe me if it doesn't then it'll never get finished.

---

Indeed, and I've got the scars to prove it. :/

------------------
-------------------------
Atomic Team Entertainment
http://www.atomicteam.com

------------------
Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

It sounds like what has been said is that if we make something as an offering to God, it's ok. (This is obviously an extreme example to make a point, but...) What if someone made pornography as an offering to God? Surely, that's not right. Again, the key is to offer only what is good and acceptable to Him. To figure out what that is is another question altogether.

quote:

---

Originally posted by BKewl:
To figure out what that is is another question altogether.

---

An offering is an action of honor to the one whom it is given. It is a gift. It is also a sacrifice. Every instance of an offering to God in scripture includes sacrifice - of the very best.
Romans 12:1 - I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
A living sacrifice - A continual (ie, 'daily', but better taken 'as often as need be') offering to God.
Holy, acceptable unto God - What we should be after cleansing any sin in us that might keep us from fellowship with God.
Reasonable service - Clearly correct behavior; a sensible course of action considering previous events. Not an unlikely or unrealistic expectation.

We must remember that what we do here on earth with Christ will all be accountable before God. What *seems* right (ie, what we can rationalize and explain to ourself to make it acceptable, etc) does not mean it *is* in God's eyes. If you have taken this matter in prayer before God and have a clear answer from God that what you are doing is not within your own desire and will, then God bless you in what you do. I sincerely hope each and every one of you is in a solid and maturing relationship with God, as that is the only way to know what is acceptable to him.

God bless,
Matt

------------------
(null)GAMES
discussing games vs. art vs. life
---------------------------------
http://www.nullgames.com

edit: fixed typo.

[This message has been edited by nfektious (edited May 02, 2004).]

Just thought I'd add my two cents, although klumzy, Mack, and Nfectious did an excellent job of getting the final point across. God bless!

Amen, as I read over the posts again, it was very deep. I enjoyed. It has even caused me to sit back and examine some of the projects that I am currently working, as I'm mostly a (hobbyist) and don't own a real business. So... great points guys, it's been a while but the advice here is definitely worth printing out!

------------------
"Before Abraham was... I Am." - Jesus Christ

3rd Day Studios

I was confronted with my motives and realized where much of my ambitions were stemmed from. I totally agree that God has to be first. Sometimes, though, we turn to other things to cover up past hurts and are afraid of letting them go because we are afraid to trust in God's love, or misunderstand God's nature, thinking He is some stone cold dictator or such. Thats how it was with me. God has been working with me step by step, helping me to trust him more.

[This message has been edited by Ashton_JX (edited February 23, 2005).]

One of the reasons why I never decided to make a "Christianity-based" game, especially one where you battle vs demons and principalities, is simply that I found it unrealistic against the verse "If God is for me, who can be against me?" Therefore, I always figured, if I were to make a game that modelled such things, the player would have an infinite Deus Ex Machina against anything that came up against him!!

As for ideas, I certainly agree with "thinking outside the box" (heh infact "Breaking out of the Box" is the current topic of sermons at my church this season!). Rather than trying to take a mainstream game type and working your game's message around it, go the other way around. Decide on the message you want to send out, and then brainstorm gameplay ideas that you could use to send the message.

Oh heh, by the way, I write praise & worship tracks. Feel free to listen to one I finished recently: City of Righteousness

------------------
http://www.codersworkshop.com -- Everything for the Independent Coder
http://www.muscle-power.net/muz -- My game music showcase

personally, Christian games work best in the field of allegories.

------------------
Soterion Studios

But first.. I'd like to make one distinction.. there are two things that come to mind what I think of "christian market" this is true in every area of entertainment and really just about every product which is specificly marketed to christians. The first is a product which some how displays the elements of the gospel in an attempt to evangelize or teach.. the second is a product which does not really seek to portray the gospel or evangelize but simply tries to remain free of immoral or objectionable materiel (like sex, over the top violence, witchcraft etc).

Games could fit into either catagory and really both catagories are good (both can be dedicated to God as well). So you need to decide exactly what you want to do.. do you want to make a game that spreads the message, or do you want to make a game that is family/christian friendly.

But anyway... on to the thought raised by cyberseth. A common problem with christian games (in concept) is that God is the ultimate ace in the hole. I've seen this a number of times in christian based Pencil and Paper RPG's, players can never loose because God always bails them out of trouble. Really games suffer this problem when they have over powered magical intervention of any kind, however the temptation is worse when your making a game centered around an all powerful, loving God.

This is where I come to the point of making games real. There is a tendency, which I've experienced often, in christian circles, particularly things dealing with kids, to candy coat everything to the point that reality is lost. Personaly I think this should be avoided, particularly in games. God is all powerful and loving, and he can rescue you from anything.. but most of us have experienced the reality that often times there is no miraculous intervention... those kind of things are rare and special events. God allows suffering and trouble and trial in order to build us, to mold us. Its through those things that we grow, and grow strong. Games should reflect this. One of the biggest questions people struggle with is why bad things happen if God is so good. Christians often times only make this worse by painting an unrealistic picture of life as a christian.

Its issues like this that can make a game real, and deal with important relevant issues for people, if we are not afraid to address them. We should look for questions and issues like this that people really struggle with and make games and stories that talk about these things and how they are answered or related to christianity.

------------------
-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

quote:

---

Originally posted by simon_templar:
the second is a product which does not really seek to portray the gospel or evangelize but simply tries to remain free of immoral or objectionable materiel (like sex, over the top violence, witchcraft etc).

---