Angel Member Posts: 699 From: The Blissful State Of Me? Registered: 05-21-2001 |
(I got fussy so I typed out all this and edited this post. What I orginaly posted here is under all this fussing.) In my openion the christian body in genrul sucks. None of them want to help eachother. They are so divided that we should call them body parts. One is a finger crawling away to be a worm... another is a touge that wants to talk without air... and yet we have a brain that dosnt want to comunicate to anyone. Im sorry but im a little pissed with my brothers in the Lord. They rain down jugment on everyone who isnt exactly like them. Im sorry people but we cant all be a toe nail or a pritty head of hair. Its puthetic. We are to be as one and to help one another. Ever hear of giving your child a black widdow insted of an olive? I know its not in thoughs exact words but there is my point. We hand out knifes to eachother to cut one another faces off. To top all that off we have non-christians that are watching every little thing we do. I will tell you their openion. "Christians lack unity so why should I join? God brings love they say but they treat one another like crap. They cant even suport their own music, games, or even eachother. Some children of God. If thats a child of God I am better off the way I am. Besides I can backstab whoever I want and not have the gilt of the fact that I should love others." I wish I had a large micraphone that was connected to ear peaces that would be placed in every Christians ear. I would give them a peace of my mind. Divided and shell not stand; shell fall and crumble into the dust from which it came. Im a little frustraited with all of this bullcrap. (in all truth im probley just in a bad mood. Ignore me and get on with your wanderful life.) Dont take me wrong I love all of you guys and gals. I just pray and hope that somewhere out there are more Christians that are Christ like! Christians that will accept whomever/ help whomever/ give their best for whomever. I know we dont all have cash but in the end verbul suport would be more helpful it would seem (not verbul tearing down). Im not trying to tear people down. I just want to try and make people realize that they say they are walking with God and yet I dont see Him anywere in their lives. I just needed to get all this off my chest. (sometimes its good to do that you know love VVVVVVV(Original post before I got all fussy)VVVVVV To the guys that made Catechumen I didnt post this to hurt you in any way. Truth is I admire your efforts. I just thought that this sort of thinking is what makes making a christian game so hard. People simply demand surten things and wont exept other things. *********************************************************** Way back a long, long time ago, Christians were being persecuted by Romans. Roman spies were sneaking around capturing Christians by the dozens. In order to keep the spies out, Christians came up with sort of a new recruit hazing policy. Those who were new to the faith had to study the Bible for one year before being accepted into the flock. These trainees were called Catechumen. Apparently, this is something upon which a whole game can be built. And not just any game, but a first-person shooter. Are you scratching your head, because I sure was. I was also groaning and extremely confused. But now I see the light, and it's telling me to warn you against this game. Allow me to preach the good word... Let's ignore the Bible thumping message of Catechumen, like how collecting power-up scrolls cause actual Bible verses to pop up in the corners of the screen. Or how it simplifies a rather meaningful and complex belief of many normal people into "ZAP! You're saved!" Indeed, it's all there plus more, but that's not what's under review. First and foremost, if Catechumen can't stand on its own as a game, then no one will even pay attention to whatever cockamamie message is being pushed. And this is one game that falls far, far short of being something fun to play. The story is more boring than Sunday school. The game is set in Roman times right after the advent of Christianity. You play a nameless Catechumen, set forth by an angel to free your imprisoned teacher, all the while "saving" Roman minds from demon infestation. On your way into the depths of evil, you'll convert Roman soldiers, blast impish demons, and tip over lions. Every level or so, that angel will return to give you a more powerful holy sword with which to smite non-Christian things. And that's about it. In today's day and age, something more compelling than "drive out the demons and save your teacher" is needed. Not just needed - but commanded! I'm no Bible thumper, but the fact of the matter is that the good book is filled with tons of kick-%^& stories and all kinds of drama. Why not create an actual plot of complexity and interest? In keeping with the theme, what about using a broader, more approachable allegory? Something like those Narnia books by C.S. Lewis. I mean, even the first Resident Evil had Bible verses! (Thou shalt eat braaaiiinnnsss... - Ed.) This game engine is right out of the Old Testament. Interactivity with objects is limited to the basest form of block-pushing puzzles. The level construction is made up entirely of simple hallways and big rooms. Even the areas that are purportedly outside are actually just rooms with sky painted ceilings. Da Vinci is rolling over in his grave. Objectives aren't explained and often times you are left to complete the most routine key/item retrieval missions ever. The gameplay philosophy hearkens back to the classic heathen Doom - but worse. Just take a look at the enemies and AI. Roman soldiers run towards you. "Rargh! Look there! A Christian! Grrr." Oh no. But with your little spirit sword in hand, you shoot out blue bolts of pure Jesus energy. And miraculously, "Hallelujah" is shouted out, and the Roman soldiers stop to pray, and the light shines down upon them, and their lives are suddenly better, and the people rejoice. It's the funniest, kitschiest part of the game, just toeing the lines of absurdity and offensiveness. Between the light-sourcing cast down from heaven to the many forms of the Hallelujah sound bite, it honestly feels like they've put more energy into the Hallelujahs then anything else. Why they spend that time on the actual gameplay is beyond my mortal comprehension. Not only are the Romans after you, but so are the demons! Freaky impish things with freaky sound effects. The AI here is incredibly basic, consisting mainly of the demons running towards you in a satanic charge from hell. When you're within an enemy's range, you'll trigger its 'search and destroy' routine. You're left with a game flow that involves a lot of backing up and shooting rather than trying to skillfully maneuver and fight. The game is visually off kilter just enough to give you this sharp pain right between the eyebrows. Objects in the distance have the wrong degree of sharpness. The rendered bitmaps are slightly blurry. And to add insult to it all, the animation is limited to stick figure movements. When you kill a lion with all that holy power, what does it do? It just tips over! I mean, making that lion stop and pray would have been better than just tipping it over. Do lions believe in Jebus? As if things weren't weird enough, the music is terrifying. Most of the game manages to turn out some generic action game music. Other times, you'll get B-movie demon sounds, evil rumblings from left to right. And then, for no reason at all whatsoever, you'll walk into a room and be blasted by HEAVY METAL. Were the devils listening to their music before you came in and broke up their little party? Paul is dead! Paul is dead! Ahhhh! Save me, Ozzy! Catechumen keeps on sucking. Like when I try out the game on my home computer and it simply refuses to work with my TNT card. Hath Satan wrought the demons upon my graphics card? Nay. It just speaks of the need for more testing. The way I see it, this game falls into a special little marketing niche. Take a game with limited development and then have it approved by parent groups and organizations against violence. And just like that, you'll have something to aim right at parents who want something nonviolent and "Christian" to give their kids. That's all fine and good. I'm not reviewing their business practices, but to take advantage of these attitudes only to sell such a weak game is just insulting. I bet there were some really goodhearted people behind all this goodhearted fragging. And sure, it might be possible to make a decent Christian video game. As a Christian myself, that might be something to see. But it would have to be deeper, more complex, and with a story less simplistically self-righteous and more open to a broader audience. And most of all, make it fun to play. Sadly, Catechumen is none of these things. The only thing saving it from an F is our healthy fear of God. The 11th commandment: Thou shalt not play sucky games. Can I get an amen? Revolution Report Card http://www.game-revolution.com/games/pc/action/catechumen.htm Thay listed the game among the worst games ever made. I dont suport what they said about the game because I havent played it. I dont know the first thing about the game. If someone here does I would like to hear your openion on the game. If anyone wants to say something about the reviewer or what that person said post it. Im just so disterbed at the momment I really cant put down my openion. Im going to need some time to set my mind strait. Even then re-reading what that person said may tick me off again. (After adding the top part, editing, comeing back again, thinking, you know what screw it this was the last thing I thought about before going to bed.) Dont lose your heads peeps [This message has been edited by Angel (edited November 06, 2002).] |
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graceworks Member Posts: 455 From: Corvallis, Oregon, USA Registered: 03-03-2001 |
Hmmm.... interesting review. My review of Catechumen was quite a bit different: I agree with the other reviewer's "call to great stories". But I also doubt C.S. Lewis' initial works were of Narnia caliber. Likewise, Christian Games will continue to improve. From Wisdom Tree games to Captain Bible to Saints of Virtue to Catechumen/Ominous to Eternal War with others in between (like Scripture Solitaire and Heaven Quest), the past has shown improvement and hopefully the future will too. And do so with great stories and messages. -Tim ------------------ |
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Angel Member Posts: 699 From: The Blissful State Of Me? Registered: 05-21-2001 |
Like always Grace you make me feel better about situwations. I was online when you where replying so I couldnt help but wait. I think I can sleep better now. I just needed a pozitive boost. I dont have any christian friends around to talk to at home. I only have my wife and right now well... she is sleeping. I should get my buttix into bed. Oh and your right about things improving. Besides the revier failed to mention that Christian games almost never have any backers. (I already grumbled enough for tonight "Yet another sin im such a hipocrit") God Bless |
MaxX Member Posts: 77 From: New Jersey, USA Registered: 07-30-2002 |
Uh...what did I do? I try to help people out, even if I have no time... |
Mack Administrator Posts: 2779 From: Registered: 01-20-2001 |
It's good to get things off our chest, although we should watch where we're aiming.  I agree that we should help each other out either by praying, providing money or offering some sort of support. Over the course of Eternal Wars development we've gotten quiet a bit of moral support from alot of people which is very encouraging, especially in stressed times. Not 'all' Christians are as you mentioned, but enough are, will our message of love and fun change them? Some yes, others no, it's really up to the person. As for the review, I was surprised that the reviewer was Christian at the end, with enough doses of critical views it made Cachie look like a Wolf3d clone from 1994. I didn't think it was that bad, my review was somewhere around what Graceworks said and what CCGR.org said. Check out the demo Angel, you might like it: Click here------------------ [This message has been edited by Mack (edited November 07, 2002).] |
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Angel Member Posts: 699 From: The Blissful State Of Me? Registered: 05-21-2001 |
Hay MaxX I wasnt jumping your case. I just hang around a lot of minnisters and pasters. They all see that the people that come to church more often then not are only conserned with themselfs. That dosnt mean everyone is a selfrightous high and mighty do what I want person. Then again if you have a gilty heart then maybe you should pray about. Other then that get that frown off your face. Im not pissed with you, I just needed to vent a bit. Then GraceWorks came in and said something that showed a bit of hope. I spend all day long alone in my house. So I have way to much time to think and brood. Wish I could get a job... but my shrink says hell no to that. Belive me if you spend every day of your life basicly just looking at four walls and waiting for people to reply to e-mails you start to get a little edgy. Anyways if your still hurt im up to talk about it. I dont see why you took it so personal though. Your walk is between you and God not what some loon like me thinks. peace |
c h i e f y Member Posts: 415 From: Surrey, United Kingdom Registered: 03-07-2002 |
MaxX..... you lost me my friend - nevermind : Graceworks, I went to your slick site and saw your gaming review "system" - boy that is PROFESSIONAL really ! you reviewed, sorry, somebody on your site reviewed Commandos 1 in the "unacceptable game" category could I please submit my "review" of Commandos2 ? BTW ------------------ |
Klumsy Administrator Posts: 1061 From: Port Angeles, WA, USA Registered: 10-25-2001 |
quote: i hope you got some imortal support as well :P ------------------ |
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Mack Administrator Posts: 2779 From: Registered: 01-20-2001 |
LOL! Thanks for pointing that out, I just changed it. ------------------ |
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Angel Member Posts: 699 From: The Blissful State Of Me? Registered: 05-21-2001 |
The revier was giving all the complaints about the game. Me personaly I think its a lot better then the older christian games out. I agree that strong story line is important... but I dont know if Catchuman pulled that off. Thats why I asked everyones views. The graphix looked quake like to me. I think thats cool. The thing about the wepaons... well from what ive seen the selection is limited. Ive only seen that sward thing in all the pix on the net. Im asuming it is an upgradubl weapon. Still in all truth im probably paying more attention to the CCN game that is being worked on. I forgot the name exactly. From what I here the game play is a wack consept some I'm wandering what it will look like. I just hope the story line is riveting and involving. Still im not writing it and I dont know who is. To whoever is writing it "Good luck!". I know how tempermemntal people get over stories. Thats the only reason why I say that. No matter what you do people are going to complain about your story some how. Just make sure to consider some of the complaints. Sometimes the complaint is correct and you could do something to make the story more grand. Anyways im off to read other stuff. |
RAN-SUN-SAN Member Posts: 27 From: Finland Registered: 10-09-2002 |
Thanks Angel for your thoughts! First I would like to say to ANYONE who critisize negativly against something: "DO IT BETTER YOURSELF!" I get a feeling that some of the critics that you Angel mention, do not know much about game development! I donīt mean that christian games shouldnīt be critisized, but what Imean is that thereīs totally different ways to do that! One is to throw shit against other (a common christian way), ot the critic could be SOFT and have a ppoint where it tryes to view the problems in an angel that would make the game developers making better result in the future. If we have a young man who wnats to be a preacher. Should we critisize his first sermon to the bottom of the ocean, and tell him how stupid one could be that preaches about bla bla bla, and says that bla bla bal? I think the result is that the preacher comes even more uncertain of what he really would have to do! Why not point at the good things in the sermon, and give him som suggestions of what could be made better.
Therefore I KNOW that itīs not an easy task. I donīt say that all christian games are good with an excellent story, but what I say AGAIN is: HELP US MAKING A BETTER STORY and stop throwing crap at us.
Now, letīs go to our company! We have had to save money from our own salaries to buy the program that we can afford. I would need a mixing console, but I may have money for that next year sometimes (if I get lucky). We use the A5 commercial engine, even if there is a better PRO version of it, but we CANNOT AFFORD IT! We use quite simple modelling tools, but TRY to get a better (and more expensive) one MAYBE next year. We pay a EXTREEMLY SMALL salary to our programmer (from our own salary) to keep the project going. At the moment I havenīt got NO soundcard (I use the one on my motherboard!)
WELL now I have emptied my heart and I feel better! PS! The graphics do not seem bad at all! (at least whatīs shown here above!) Keep it going, developers of Cathecumen!! But remember the INKVISITOR game is coming!!!! hopefully at the end of 2003! |
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Klumsy Administrator Posts: 1061 From: Port Angeles, WA, USA Registered: 10-25-2001 |
quote: it can be done though, Remedy is a small games dev house... its budget didn't start at that, and for their earlier game 'death rally' they were just a few of them, a group of friends.. and with max payne , the 80/20 rule definately worked, 20% of the people did 80% of the work.. it was combination of high level school, with serious dedication... (I don't like the game for its violence, but like it for its technical excellence and design)... markus stien who did the majority of the programming, who made their MAX-FX 3d engine which is also the standard benchmark for 3d cards (they are also madonion- a way they could afford a big budget for max payne).. back in the demoscene , he made a quake quality engine before doom came out.. quality 3d engines are his forte thus you get the excellence of the engine.. He's being doing 3d engines from scratch since he was a young teenager. Most of the dev team come from an enviroment of pushing technology to its limits and programming graphics in assembler.. But it is a difficult thing for a small finnish company to get funding to make a big game, but they did it with their first game, basically at their own cost and could carry on there.. its an example of a small gorup of people in the secular making it, and it just took a little bit of vision... and with God on our side, we can do anything.. ------------------ |
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RAN-SUN-SAN Member Posts: 27 From: Finland Registered: 10-09-2002 |
Thanks for a more detailed analyse! I donīt say that such things are "impossible"! I reacted more against the critic from people who only throw crap around on other christians. Your example of the (Death Rally) game! But they started with a smaller game, and perhaps smaller games before DEATH RALLY! As you explain, one of theese guys started in the early teenages to develop (engines and code)! Now, if we go to my point! Think if people around this teenager started with comments like: This isnīt going to be anything. You just made your first game and itīs just plain stupid..... Also why not help each other! Iīve suggested to people (companies) that work with the Conitec A5 engine, to put our heads and knowledge together, to be able to make a good game. Everything is not dependent on money or programs, thatīs true. But what I wanted to show is that a game has much better chances to be a high class game if we could use better programs, better equipment.... we should also push our equipment and knowledge to the MAXimum! (as you say!) And the "ordinary christian player" can also help in that process (instead of just throwing up upon us!). He can BUY the games, which gives the developers money to buy better equipment! He can play (and test) the game, give positive feedback = feedback that gives ideas for how the next game could be mad better etc. If christian games sells in quantity, also investors should open their eyes! Which again accelerates and helps the community! The same is about christian music. I was (and am) into metal music! Back in the 80īs I didnīt think that the quality of christian metal bands was nearly as good as for secular bands, but I bought the records because I wanted christian music. Today bands like POD and many others are as high in quality as any other secular bands. I hope the same would happen for christian games, but let us encourage each other, and help each other, instead of this negativ feedback. The same people that tells how much the christian games suck today, might as well have told how much the metal bands in the 80īs suck (= so letīs not buy them since they are crap??!!??) Anyway! Do you have a thousand dollars to support us with??? |
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Klumsy Administrator Posts: 1061 From: Port Angeles, WA, USA Registered: 10-25-2001 |
quote: yep i understand, i was just adding my 2 cents.. (or 50 dollars) worth..
quote: i do think that, for the year, and for the project scope, death rally was up their with max payne... it had some fun and unique characteristics and it went along with their desire to get out a good game, that will sell in a small amount of time (otherwise who would have supported max-payne with the years and years it took before it finnally got released when it did) so remedy probably have a higher talent, skills level that most of us here,
quote: EXACTLY, we need to encourage them, we have to stand with them, support them.. there are times that we do need to point out some things.. but the keyword is 'IN LOVE' and 'IN LOVE' often requires us to commit to seriously and regularility pray for them.. to actually love them, rather than just heaping words at them
quote: though i haven;t used a5 much other than play arounhd, i did plug it as a good thing for small game teams, however i've really been moving towards the Torque engine which is more powerful and just as simple really..but still the principle is the same, people can make a game of a certian scale and bang it out in a5,torque, or flash or blitzbasic depending on the scope.. we don't all have to program a game in assembler from scratch.. 
quote: there is truth in that, though i think you can actually do alot without money, i think for christian devs, time is more important than money (and so money for supporting people so they don't have to work somehwere else).. as for equiptment tools, i take this approach with myself - so not to get caught up with having to buy the latest newest computer etc... Somepeople spend and buy the best of everything but their skill is still low, i buy according to my skill and my use... for example i am plannign to do some VJing for a band, and i am going to want a new fast computer with a gforce 4, however until i bang out some code, and get some good stuff done, i don't need to buy that.. and it would be a waste to buy it then actually never get around to using what i want to do
quote: i do also see that... We are to do things in excellence, to be a good testimony to our God... and that often takes resources, and it is sad... i want to see hollywood quality (well better than holywood as far as storyline) movies... with budgets like 200 million dollars, because there is sooo much money in the church... its estimated that those who call themselves christians make 12,500 billion dollars a year, however only one percent of that gets into the church, and not much flows on further to other ministries or evangelism or missions.. we consume on ourselves, there is plenty of money in the kingdom to support quality games, movies, music etc hey b.t.w maybe you'll like my friends band's songs
quote: i don't know.. i do have thousands of dollars in the coming year i want to invest in christian media, but alot of that will be in our group Godcentric, buyign our commited members licenses for their compilers, torque engine etc etc, and also i plan on spending money on VideoJockey software, a computer for doing the concerts, and also publishing an album.. Also i don't know mcuh about your project, nor the commitment to it.. so its not a personal thing, if we were in relationship, and i could latch onto the vision, and feel led by GOd i would sow.. but at the moment i would more likely be to sow into something like TwoGuys, as i am in accountibility and friendship relationship with Mack, i see the fruit of their labors, and know that they can indeed pull a project off.. so that would be an area i would more likely be to sow into... however i probably wouldn't just give them $1000, but buy some many copies of their games, then give them for free or cheap to computer stores locally to sell orsomething... anyway GOd Bless, and do you have a link to your project? ------------------ |
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RAN-SUN-SAN Member Posts: 27 From: Finland Registered: 10-09-2002 |
I hope Godcentric will have a success! I think we are quite on the same line here! I only reacted against the "why donīt you christian brothers havenīt made better games yet?" There is a lot of job to do, much to gain in knowledge... but I think that we christian developers are on our way! I think we should also support small games (and groups) that make "tertis" like games! WHY? Because if we support them, some of theese coders might be professional coders in the future. My next project will be made with the CONITEC A%, but I could also check out the TORGUE engine for some future projects! RAN-SUN-SAN comes from what Iīm called RANSU, combined with the movie made by Akira Kuroshawa AN-YIN-SAN (or AN-JIN-SAN) donīt remember how it was written! |
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MaxX Member Posts: 77 From: New Jersey, USA Registered: 07-30-2002 |
My opinion is, if you do a game, give it your best, and if they don't like it, well they can go take a hike. Good luck to you guys! I may start my own A5/or some other engine game soon. |
InsanePoet Member Posts: 638 From: Vermont, USA Registered: 03-12-2003 |
Start a new game, MaxX? You still working on Infinitum? ------------------ |
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RAN-SUN-SAN Member Posts: 27 From: Finland Registered: 10-09-2002 |
Hi MaxX - why not make a MaxX PAYNE game? (I would help you with that!) Yepp! Iīll do my best, to make an interesting game, but I know it wonīt overcome MAX PAYNE or C&C GENERALS! But I do my best, I promise! I donīt have too much free time over, but if you make a game with the A5 engine, I can surely help you with something (sounds, textures etc). Iīm actually trying to gather people around the A5 engine to put all our knowledge together, and make (not a company) but a community, from where coming "top" programmers, designers, sound engineers... would develop. May the force be with you in MaxXimum amount! |
