rowanseymour Member Posts: 284 From: Belfast, Northern Ireland Registered: 02-10-2001 |
Is it just me or is it always the same old faces posting in the forums, which of course in some ways is nice because you start to feel like you know everybody, but it isn't exactly spreading the good word. Surely Christian Coders is unique (I've never heard of anything like it) and so should be bringing in ALL the Christian programmers and computing enthusiasts out there. Are the Christian Coders banners displayed much on the WWW? There are a lot of big programming sites out there which have banner exchange programs. These would find Christians, who like me had me had never heard of Christian games and weren't inclined to read general Christian sites. I can't quite remember how I found this place, but I think it was by accident. PS. I just redesigned my home page and everyones complaining they liked the old one better so some feedback would be great ------------------ [This message has been edited by rowanseymour (edited June 26, 2001).] |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
Well, maybe it's because the concept of Christian Coders is inherently stupid. It's kind of like a web page for chefs who have bald heads. The two issues have nothing to do with one another. From what I've seen 'Christian Coders' as a group seem to be a hiding place for people who write bad games. It has been the case for a long time that Christianity is good marketing in the USA and a good way to sell a bad products. I'd be embarrased to have written every 'Christian' game I have seen. Christian |
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graceworks Member Posts: 455 From: Corvallis, Oregon, USA Registered: 03-03-2001 |
quote: Hi "MeanMan". I don't have a bald head, but I played the Wizard of Oz in a high school play. Just wanted to reply and let you know that God loves you and Jesus died for you. -Tim |
Krylar Administrator Posts: 502 From: MD, USA Registered: 03-05-2001 |
Heya MeanManInOz, Firstly, thank you for your cander. I'd say it's refreshing, but getting flamed never seems to be no matter how often it happens. It does seem as though you have a major problem with Christianity and/or Christians in general. I'm curious as to why. I have been in the games industry for over 10 years now and I know a lot of Christians that have been on teams (mostly lead members) that developed a number of top-10 games. Granted, these aren't Christian titles...I have to give you that there are few really compelling Christian games out there...but they're still Christians and they're among the top developers. Don't get me wrong, there are a ton of excellent secularist game developers out there as well--and they're probably more common than Christian ones more due to the game industry than talent--but I think it's a bit foolish to consider a person's ability to create/code/etc. based solely on their beliefs. -Krylar |
Mack Administrator Posts: 2779 From: Registered: 01-20-2001 |
The CCN is a gathering ground for the far and few Christian coders and developers there is in the world. I think it's a great place: 1) No one has yet released a game (other than Eternal Warriors and N'Lighting, but they do not precipitate here), so your pre-meditated generalized judgement is in-correct 2) I'm not bald yet, and there's nothing wrong about being bald, in fact, there is a growing population of women that find bald men attractive. 3) We like to range the issues we discuss from game programming, to development to our Christian walk, keeps this place fresh and not so "techy". It also answers a lot of questions and helps us along in all aspects as well. Non-believers are allowed to come in, express they're view and get feedback and start discussions. However I think your "comment" is in-correctly structured. It does seem as though you have a major problem with Christianity and/or Christians in general. I'm curious as to why, what have we done to you, or what have other Christians done to you? |
joeG Member Posts: 90 From: OK, US Registered: 01-20-2001 |
quote: Hmmm, so what do you think Christian games should be like? I'm really interested in your perspective, because I've been thinking about it alot; like what's legit and what's not. Stuff like that. joeG |
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joeG Member Posts: 90 From: OK, US Registered: 01-20-2001 |
BTW, Christian coder == Lary Walls-(co?)creator of Perl. joeG |
Revelator Member Posts: 226 From: Sydney, NSW, Australia Registered: 03-22-2001 |
Well MeanManInOz It is one thing to be critical, but unless you have some alternative to bring up - please shut up. There have been quite a few questions come your way asking for your story and your ideas. Unless you answer them, don't bother flaming anyone else. I don't like reacting to negative posts, but hopefully you may understand this message in your own language. Look forward to what you suggestions you have. Revelator ------------------ |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
Tim: I know Jesus died for me, I am a Christian, just not an American, commercialised one. I guess the nick would cause you to think otherwise, it's actually a song reference. I'm 32 with two kids, so I'm probably not that mean ;0) Krylar: I have a major problem with people for whom Christianity is a hiding place from the rest of the world, this makes you no different from radical feminists. Christian Coders/Christian games is just a plain dumb idea. You actually prove my point - of COURSE some of the top games have been written by Christians. I didn't say Christians can't program ( I am proof they can ), just that the idea of their writing 'Christian games' is stupid. Mack: I've played a number of Christian games I found out about via Something Awful, which is also how I think I found this site. The latest, which was truly vile, was called Life's Challenge or something. I actually shave my head to hide the grey - I've got no problem with bald ;0) It's interesting that every is assuming I hate Christians because I am willing to state my opinion - that a site jutaposing Christianity and programming makes no sense at all. JoeG: Christian games should be invisible - there is no point to their existance. It's like Christians drinking a ton of non-alcoholic beer or saying 'Gosh Darn it' when they hit their thumb. I don't drink or swear, but I miss neither of these things and so do not need a substitute. I would feel like a phony if I kept a cupboard of fake beer or wine. I don't actually think there is anything bad in my playing Quake or Red Alert, and so I do. Big fat hairy deal. Why do I need a Christian game ? It's like Christian music - it all pretty much sucks, except Rez. Stryper pretty much admitted in the 80's they had a Christian message because it guarenteed them sales. It's still the same today, I am sure. Revelator: The answer is obvious. Come to a site like CodeGuru for information on programming, find a Christian site ( I know there are plenty of newsgroups, there are probably sites as well ). If you collect stamps, go to a stamp collecting site. Don't feel they need to be grouped together because they are in your life. As to games, I like CounterStrike and Age of Empires, but you will probably have your own opinions. |
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Mack Administrator Posts: 2779 From: Registered: 01-20-2001 |
quote: Life's battles I believe you mean, based off of a form of the Wolf3d engine. Christian games aren't stupid, nor is it a stupid idea to create one. It's a way to reach out to people in different and creative means. If you do it right, the game can be fantastic, it's hard balancing between being preaching and offering entertainment. Unfortunately, a lot of Christian games out now are very preachy, which is fine by Christians, but too reach out to others, it's basically useless or even harmful. You can't reach out to someone by hitting them with your Bible and screaming "PAGAN PIG! GET ON YOUR KNEE'S AND REPENT!" it doesn't work that way. I never assumed you hated Christians, I assumed that you we're a non-Christian who was burned by Christians, or a Christian burnt out on religion or by other Christians: Are you tired? Worn out? Burned out on Religion? Come to me. Get away with me and you'll recover your life. I'll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me - watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won't lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you. Keep company with me and you'll learn to live freely and lightly. - Jesus I'm a burned Christian and I'm only 18 years old. I've been in one dead legalistic church for 10 years, which dictated, starved and burnt me till I couldn't take it anymore and I broke out and went out on a search for God. I never went out against God, other Christians or the church that starved my soul, I went after satan, because he's the true source of all evil. Here's a translation to the post you said: 1) Christian coders suck That's where I said before, that I think your comment was in-correctly structured. I'm trying to figure out what your against here, I'm against satan, legalistic churches and the man made rules and regulations of religion, I also enjoy listening to Christian metalcore/death metal, good stuff. As stated by you in "Real life moral dilemma" you're a Christian who's been floating around churches and trying to find ground? SAY NO TO RELIGION!!! What? No religion? Isn't a belief in God mean a person is religious? You mean there is something other than religion? Frankly, yes. God is not religious. Religion is something people made up. Acting or looking a certain way. Doing or not doing certain things and rituals. History is full of bloody acts and wars in the name of religion. From the Inquisition to Hitler, religion has always played a part in misery and murder in the history of the world. But hasn't Christianity been a big part of this misery? Religions calling themselves Christians have, sure. Hitler used religious rhetoric to cause the holocaust to eliminate the Jewish race. The Spanish Inquisition used religious rhetoric to torture and terrorize. There are countless examples of this, yet throughout history there are those who continued to seek real Truth. Some of those were killed because of it in the name of religion. But there is something more and more people are realizing. And those in history who were killed for it realized it then - the difference is that religion requires you to believe a certain way. God requires you to receive. Believe in religion as opposed to receiving Christ. That's the difference. If you are seeking and really want to find the truth about life, then you will find it. Religion seeks to make us comfortable, ignorant and oblivious. When we are born physically in this world, we all have an empty void that seeks to be filled. God made a way for us to truly fill that void. That's what the term Christian really means, to have Christ in us. Wait a second! To be a Christian I would have to believe in Jesus, right? The bible actually says you must receive Christ into your heart. It refers to that as being "born again" spiritually. An analogy of being born physically. And as far as believing in Jesus, the bible says that satan believes in Jesus, but that doesn't make him a Christian - so why would just believing work for anyone else? Oh, the Bible, huh? There's a lot of books out there about God. There's even lots of books interpreting the bible. What's the difference in that ? And besides, I've heard a lot of stuff about how the bible says one thing in one place and the opposite in another place. Yes, there are lots of books out there and people who will tell you what the bible says. One aspect of religion is people who have a certain belief and then go to the bible to find scripture that appears to support what they want to make it say. That is when the bible appears to contradict itself. But it isn't the bible doing the contradiction. In 2nd Peter 1:20 it says, "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of the Scripture is of a person's interperatation." You read it for yourself. It speaks to you. The bible is full of stories about love, war, passion, hate, lies, pleasure and everything that happens to people then and now. It also has wisdom, knowledge, truth and the key to life here and beyond. The bible also says we can have a personal relationship with God. We don't go through a superior person or have to perform certain rituals to achieve this relationship. Being good doesn't work. We can never be completely perfect no matter who we are. In fact, there is nothing we can do as far as acts or rituals to have the Spirit live in us. We simply agree to allow Christ to come into our hearts. When this happens, we begin to really see and understand because our spiritual eyes become open. Then the real fun begins! It can't be that simple! But it is that simple. Religion says it is not simple. Religion tells you to be something you're not. But God wants us to be what we really are and Christ empowers us to be just that. I was raised in a religious atmosphere when I was a kid. Religion never did anything for me and like most people, I wandered around trying this and that but never finding real happiness or satisfaction. I was seeking and finally began to read the Bible for myself. I finally saw the difference between religion and God's plan for me. I finally learned to say no to religion and yes to God. Over time my life has become wonderful because of it. My zits didn't suddenly go away and there were still bad things that would happen sometimes. But because I now had the Spirit of God living in me, I had a source of knowledge and power that helped me to overcome everything and see the best way to go. Go get a copy of the Bible. There is a short book called Mark that tells the whole story about who and what Jesus is and what he did so we could receive the free gift of God's spirit. If you can get a copy of an N.I.V. bible or Message Bible, that's best because it was painstakingly translated into plain english from the most original copies of the Bible. Just honestly ask Jesus to come into your heart. Just like you would talk to a friend. Do it right now. Say that you want Jesus to come into your heart and be born again. Start reading the bible with your newly opened spiritual eyes and it will speak to you. Ask God to help you meet other real people like yourself. Look for others who read the bible. You will meet others like, yourself and it's great to make real friendships. It's amazing how God helps us in life when all we do is receive his Spirit. Most of all, keep saying no to religion and yes to God. |
Imsold4christ Member Posts: 305 From: Gresham, OR, US Registered: 01-20-2001 |
Mack, James 1:27 I checked the NLT, the NIV, and the KJV, they all say religion in it. Notice that that passage calls our religion, Christianity, pure and lasting. So yeah, I think that explains itself. I don't know quite how that affects your sermon there Mack, but, yeah, I think we need to do some re-examining here. †Caleb† |
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Mack Administrator Posts: 2779 From: Registered: 01-20-2001 |
What I'm talking about here is man made rules and regulations of religion, remember the teachers that Jesus fought continusly in the New Test.? That's what I mean, people who have warped, changed and modified the word Relgion (and the Bible) and what it means. For me, I have a "belief" or a "faith", if you say religion, we're all mixed in the same pot as everyone else. Jesus makes several statements about getting away from religion or taking rests from it and following Him. For me, I ran away from religion and to God, and I'm more into Him than ever before, isn't that the important thing? ""Pure and lasting religion in the sight of God our Father means that we must care for orphans and widows in their troubles, and refuse to let the world corrupt us."" Notes: 1) He said "PURE" religion, not just "religion", "PURE" religion is fine, it's what it is now, thanks to people and society 2) "and refuse to let the world corrupt us." people have corrupted the Bible, they have corrupted religion, they have corrupted people's view on God and Jesus. |
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Revelator Member Posts: 226 From: Sydney, NSW, Australia Registered: 03-22-2001 |
Mack - All I can say is AMEN! (If I'm allowed to say that). Inspiring! |
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Mack Administrator Posts: 2779 From: Registered: 01-20-2001 |
quote:
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
Mack: Are you tired? Worn out? Burned out on Religion? Come to me. Get away with me and you'll recover your life. I'll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me - watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won't lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you. Keep company with me and you'll learn to live freely and lightly. - Jesus No real translation of the Bible reads like this, it's either a paraphrase you invented, or a translation worth burning. The bible actually says you must receive Christ into your heart. It refers to that as being "born again" spiritually. This is also tripe. The phrase 'recieve Christ into your heart' is not in the Bible. If you can prove otherwise, I will fly to the USA, mow your lawn and cook you the best dinner you have ever tasted. Being born again refers to recieving the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues. There's no point responding to the rest of your post, it is full of similar inaccuracies and if I try to discuss them all with you then we will get lost before we start. I will mention that Mark 16 contains the promises of Jesus to believers, seeing as you point me to Mark. Also, the NIV actually cuts out passages for no good reason and is generally very poor. I shudder to think at the 'Message' bible. The newer a translation, the more it is moulded to fit the doctrines of today - wishy washy and weak, insipid because it seems embarassed to preesent a Jesus who does things today, and keen to present a direct deposit slip for compulsory tithing. This I have seen, and it disgusts me. |
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Mack Administrator Posts: 2779 From: Registered: 01-20-2001 |
quote:
What I say speaks truth, it's helped me get myself closer to God than ever before, and just because you don't agree with it, doesn't mean it's wrong. I disagree with country gospel music, and it isn't wrong. |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
Good luck - NO verse talks about recieving Jesus into your heart, instead the Bible says the heart of man is wicked and decietful above all things, we are promised a NEW heart. It's a bit like the sinners prayer ( Jesus, I'm so sorry I've been a bad boy, but I accept you and know you are in my heart right now ). Garbage. The Bible does not say that ANYWHERE. Repentance is not about being miserable and grovelling like a worm. Salvation is not about accepting Jesus into your heart, it's about obeying Him and in the experience of recieving salvation being changed to be acceptable to Him. The most accurate translation is the NKJV, which does not have any older style language ( although any half intelligent person can understand the KJV if they actually try and read it, the point is they do not need to ). Even the KJV/NKJV is soft on issues of that time, like alcohol. But the newer ones are more insidious. Of course they *tell* you it's a new version because the further we get away from the writing of the originals the better we can understand them, but a cursory glance through a lexicon shows up the errors, not to mention the missing verses. Of COURSE a translation of a transaltion will show differences. By the way, I contend that even the WORST translation in the world ( the Good News as far as I am concerned based on the ones I have seen ) is good enough to see someone saved, because it will contain enough truth to guide people to the faith to obey the Gospel. But in terms of doctrine and instruction the Good News is just a disaster, and a lot of newer Bibles are not as far behind as I would like. I disagree with ALL country music, but each to their own.... I've looked at the Message Bible website - the Message Bible is not an arrucate translation, it is a paraphrase ( like the Good News ). For example: In some English versions John 1:14 is rendered, "The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us." In The Message that same sentence is stated, "The Word became flesh and blood, and moved into the neighborhood." I have no doubt that this poor excuse for a Bible therefore would contain the phrase that the religious world has been hammering for years in the absence of a verse in the Bible that says it - 'receive Jesus into your heart'. Please if you want to show me that the Bible says it, use a translation, not a paraphrase. I will accept the NIV ( it is a translation, however mediocre ), but not the Message ( which is someone using the Greek/Hebrew in conjuction with their own opinions of what sounds good/right ). |
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Mack Administrator Posts: 2779 From: Registered: 01-20-2001 |
"Are you tired? Worn out? Burned out on Religion? Come to me. Get away with me and you'll recover your life. I'll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me - watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won't lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you. Keep company with me and you'll learn to live freely and lightly. - Jesus "
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Veritech Member Posts: 208 From: Lockport, NY Registered: 01-20-2001 |
I usually stay out of dumb arguments, but i think i have something to say this time. My goal in making a Christian game is to creat a game morally acceptable to Christians, with an underlying Christian ideal. I play RPGs, and i have yet to find a secular RPG without something pervese or demonic in it. I'm not saying games have to have a Christian logo, i'm just saying they need to show good morals to people. I don't think i have seen a quality Christian game ever. sorry guys, but so far the comunity is doing terrible. Macks Project will be worth playing (the first probably), so i'm looking foreward to that. The Blood Child Project will also be Top Notch Quality. Jesus spent 30 years as a carpenter. Do you think he sold poorly made furniture? I don't think so. The best is all that is acceptable, anything less is a waste of time, and a slight on Christians. "23 Whatever may be your task, work at it heartily (from your soul) as [something done] for the Lord and not for men." Colossians 3:23, Amplified Version Peace in Gods grace, "Nothing extraneous, mind or body" - by ROBOTECH |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
Matt 11:11:28 Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 11:29 Take my yoke9 on you and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 11:30 For my yoke is easy to bear, and my load is not hard to carry." Why is it you all call yourselves Christians but do not have enough faith in God to read a Bible that is a translation of what He said instead of the opinion of some 20th century scholar of what He *should* have said ???? By the way, I was saying that no verse says to give Jesus your heart, or accept Jesus into your heart. |
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MadProf Member Posts: 181 From: Larnaka, Cyprus Registered: 01-24-2001 |
MeanManInOz: I cannot understand you at all. You condem us all as being non-christians who are fakers, losers, pretenders, cowards, and many other things. You also say that you yourself are a christian. How is it possible for you to judge us SO harshly, and claim so much about us, and yet call yourself a christian??? The bible says, no matter WHAT translation, or whatever, you use, that you should not judge one another. You are judging us. Please explain. It also, as far as I can find, says no-where, in so many words, that "being born again" involves speaking in tongues. You ask us to find verses to prove stuff to you, please show me the verse that says this. There is a verse in (i think) corinthians saying "no one who has the holy spirit in them can say 'A curse of Jesus', and no one who does not have the holy spirit in them can say 'Jesus is Lord'." as a way to tell who has the holy spirit living in them, nothing about speaking in tongues. The bible says to be kind and loving. How is it kind and loving to dismiss all the work and effort that Krylar and others have put into this site as You may well feel this way about what we do here, but SURELY this is not a loving way to say it! Perhaps I am not used to such blunt ways of speaking. I am british, after all CCN is a place that Krylar has set up for us to talk and chat about christian, and coding, things. We are all similarish people. We all find this helpful, or else we would not come back
quote: First of all, the "two issues". We are all christians, who are also coders. We find it helpful to talk to others of the same. A christian should take their faith into ALL areas of their life, school, work, play, cooking, coding, etc. This could mean as much as just asking God to help you with a project. This could also mean, as many people here have done, finding other Christians to write projects with. If a house-group at your church decides to make a whole load of cakes, and give them, or sell them to the church, do you critisize them for what they do? If christian builders decide to re-build part of a local church that is falling down, and make a website on the internet saying they are there and willing to do building for other christian orgs or charitys or churches, are you so rude to them? From what I've seen 'Christian Coders' as a group seem to be a hiding place for people who write bad games. This is a very rude comment, and I resent it. How DARE you, you who knows nothing about us, or seen our projects, call them "bad games"??? I have not ever completed a game. This is something I wish to rectify. I hopefully will. The demos which I have released, Roller Park, Cheesy, and others, have been recieved by other people as "Great Games". This may just be their personal opinions. They may be wrong. They may be crummy games. But to dismiss all the work and effort I put into them as "a load of trash", is, frankly, disgusting. This is part of what I dont understand about you. You call yourself a christian, and cant even take the small effort to make yourself friendly. MeanManInOz: Please reply to all of this message. You do quoting by using the words "quote" and "/quote" in Square Brackets to do this. There is also a button beneith each message with "reply" on it, this quotes all the text. MadProf |
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Phillip Martin Member Posts: 56 From: Yeppoon, QLD, Australia Registered: 01-31-2001 |
quote: If that is the case, we should all be reading interlinear bibles instead of some wishy washy interpretation like te New King James. Even that is hedging our bets, we should all learn greek and hebrew before we can call ourselves christians. After getting that load of tripe out my system, back to the real program. If someone reads the message or good news bible, it doesn't make them a nonchristian. Using it as the only reference doesn't make them non-christian, the only one who can safely say wether he is or not is the Lord, and he's keeping quiet about that until judgement day. That said, I agree, the message is an opinonated work, but every word out of your mouth is tainted with your opinion, or someone elses opinon ( with the exception of toungues, interpretation or prophesying, where that is straignt from the holy ghost). I have read parts of the message bible out of interest, and I use it just as I use any other book written by a christian I have read. For me It is just another opinion to draw on and think about. There is only one bible, and that is the collection of original manuscripts written by their hands. Even that has been diluted over the years with things changing over time, and the several main sources have divereged slightly over time. You said that the NIV leaves out verses for no good reason. There is a good reason. It did not include the verses that were missing in some versions. In most niv's I have seend they have those missing verses in the footnotes to read. So they are not missing, they are just down the bottom of the page.
quote: That is incorrect. As far as I can find, there is one which states it, Psalms 23:26 . But the next thing you'll probably say is that that verse is not related to the salvation message. And it isn't, but it still says it I can't remember who was asking about the spritual gifts side of things, in 1 Corinthians 12:17, "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all". Some of the gifts of the sprit are listed straight after, one of which is speaking in tongues. If you want to read more about the point of view that our friend in Tasmania is presenting (This is a big guess, I apologise if I have it wrong), you can read it at http://www.trf.org.au/ It is pretty scary relying on your works for salvation, It scares the willies out of me. Each time I read Matthew 7:22-23 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'. That with ". The first and greatest command is to love the lord your god with all your heart, soul and mind (matthew 22:36-38)., well, it gives me the heebegeebies and instills a great fear of the lord in me. Sometimes, when I do the toungues-interpretations stuff in a meeting, I feel under pressure to speak out in tongues, so I don't get questionsable glances if I have offered a tongue in a while. If I do it then, it is not out of love and worship, it is out of fear of man. Well, that is the end of my diatribe for now. Not very coherent, but I'm doing this while working, so I apologise if it is hard to follow, nonsencial, or completely irrelevant. Phillip Martin [This message has been edited by Phillip Martin (edited July 01, 2001).] |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
reply to Philip Martin: quote: Why is it you all call yourselves Christians but do not have enough faith in God to read a Bible that is a translation of what He said instead of the opinion of some 20th century scholar of what He *should* have said ???? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If that is the case, we should all be reading interlinear bibles instead of some wishy washy interpretation like te New King James. Even that is hedging our bets, we should all learn greek and hebrew before we can call ourselves christians. Not al all, I can live with the NIV, NRSV, even the New World if forced to ( I have an old one with the longer Mark 16 I pull out when the JW's hit my door ). These are translations, meaning they set out to translate the original Greek/Hebrew. Setting out to insult the version I have stated I use has no effect no me, it's just childish of you. Anything that sets out to translate the Bible is passable enough in general, reference to a good concordance is only needed from time to time. Anything that sets out to make the Bible more readable by inserting bits and taking bits out is a waste of time. After getting that load of tripe out my system, back to the real program. If someone reads the message or good news bible, it doesn't make them a nonchristian. Using it as the only reference doesn't make them non-christian, the only one who can safely say wether he is or not is the Lord, and he's keeping quiet about that until judgement day. That said, I Actually, no. You'll note in Acts 8 that the apostles were happy to tell people they were not Christians. If someone is OK before God after becoming a Christian is what will be revealed in the end. agree, the message is an opinonated work, but every word out of your mouth is tainted with your opinion, or someone elses opinon ( with the exception of toungues, interpretation or prophesying, where that is straignt from the holy ghost). I have read parts of the message bible out of interest, and I use it just as I use any other book written by a christian I have read. For me It is just another opinion to draw on and think about. I actually make a point of not collecting peoples opinions, I prefer just to read the Bible. There is only one bible, and that is the collection of original manuscripts written by their hands. Even that has been diluted over the years with things changing over time, and the several main sources have divereged slightly over time. This is true - my point is the versions in question actually don't even claim not to have diverged from the original text. You said that the NIV leaves out verses for no good reason. There is a good reason. It did not include the verses that were missing in some versions. In most niv's I have seend they have those missing verses in the footnotes to read. So they are not missing, they are just down the bottom of the page. You're thinking of Mark 16 ( don't get me started on why these verses should be included, that is another story ). I'm talking about verses here & there just missing, no footnotes or anything. They were not of core importance, but the fact that they were cut out with no reference to the fact was the reason I abandoned the NIV. quote: By the way, I was saying that no verse says to give Jesus your heart, or accept Jesus into your heart. That is incorrect. As far as I can find, there is one which states it, Psalms 23:26 . But the next thing you'll probably say is that that verse is not related to the salvation message. And it isn't, but it still says it The verse is interesting though, and it is still valid. PSalm 23 has six verses. Assuming that the verse in question does say this ( and I have no reason to assume otherwise, or you would not have said so ), the fact is that if you agree it is not about salvation, and it was written prior to the Gospel age, AND there is no evidence of Jesus/Paul/any other NT writer suggesting it is the path to salvation, my point then stands and is in fact re-enforced by your post. I can't remember who was asking about the spritual gifts side of things, in 1 Corinthians 12:17, "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all". Some of the gifts of the sprit are listed straight after, one of which is speaking in tongues. Yup - lots of gifts BUT THE manifestation of the Spirit is given to all ( not 'and a manifestation is given', as it should read to support the general position of Christendom. If you want to read more about the point of view that our friend in Tasmania is presenting (This is a big guess, I apologise if I have it wrong), you can read it at http://www.trf.org.au/ You've got it wrong. It is pretty scary relying on your works for salvation, It scares the This is hilarious. People who claim being a Christian means accepting Jesus and being a nice person seek salvation by works. How is it my works for God to give me a specific gift in accordance with His promise ? willies out of me. Each time I read Matthew 7:22-23 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice Absolutely - Jesus said we would do greater works than Him, the works are a given otherwise it is not Christianity. However, as I have noted already, this is not a licence for lawlessness, for example all speaking in tongues at once in meetings. lawlessness!'. That with ". The first and greatest command is to love the lord your god with all your heart, soul and mind (matthew 22:36-38)., well, it gives me the heebegeebies and instills a great fear of the lord in me. Of course. This is the greatest commandment, and if you're not doing it, you should be scared. If you are you should have a healthy respect for the fact. Sometimes, when I do the toungues-interpretations stuff in a meeting, I feel under pressure to speak out in tongues, so I don't get questionsable glances if I have offered a tongue in a while. If I do it then, it is not out of love and worship, it is out of fear of man. Then the people you are with in church are a wrong to presume to judge you. If you have the Holy spirit then that is it, it's up to you how often you want to step out and enjoy the blessing of using the gifts. I'm glad you operate the gifts though, does this mean the URK you gave is from your church ? Well, that is the end of my diatribe for now. Not very coherent, but I'm doing this while working, so I apologise if it is hard to follow, nonsencial, or completely irrelevant. I think I got it all ;0) |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
quote: I don't think I've actually used all the terms you're quoting to me. I said someone was being a pussy, which I ammended to wimp because someone took offence. I have made a number of comments about commercial US christianity, you're welcome to apply them to yourself or not. As for judging, you are in effect asking me to judge you righteous. I can't avoid judging you unless I am a wimp and say I do not know if you are a Christian or not. Acts 8 shows that it was quite alright then to tell people they were not Christians. As I've talked to people here, I've found some of them are not yet Christians and have said so. If I had said they were, would that change anything ? Whose judgement matters most, mine or Gods ? All I hope is that the things I say are considered by the people I say them to. In the end if I am right or wrong, what I say doesn't matter. If I am right then it matters only because I said what God says, my saying it makes no difference to God or His plan.
quote: The problem is that there is a vast body of verses promising this gift and pointing the fact out in different contexts, both promises in the OT and references in the NT to the gift everyone in the church had. However, because people have already read them, they tend to immediately assume they mean what they had assumed they meant.
quote: This verse is in context of THREE chapters about speaking in tongues in the church. In 1 Cor 14 Paul *defines* prayer in the Spirit as speaking in tongues. The alternative meaning is to make an untrue statement. I guarentee you that if you set out to curse Jesus, you could. They are words your mouth is capable of saying in that order. Therefore apart from being meaningless, the alternative view of this verse is a lie. Paul is reassuring them that though they cannot understand tongues, they cannot curse Jesus when using the gift.
quote: The site looks fine, I doubt I could do a good job. I still think the precept behind it is stupid, especially when you're talking about spreading the Word, which is hard to do on a site as insular as this one.
quote: To be honest, I wasn't looking to get drawn into a long conversation in the first place.
quote: I still don't see the correlation, but like I've said before, if it makes you happy, then good for you. quote:
quote: The issue is one of insularness, of 'christians' hiding from the world. I take back part of my statement, there appear to be Christian games that are reasonable to mediocre, as opposed to the awful ones I have seen.
quote: I have seen a number of Christian games and all were beyond awful. I've since seen some that are half reasonable, and worthy of release as modern budget titles. How can you personalise my comments regarding other software when I haven't even seen what you've written ( as you yourself said ) ?? MeanManInOz: Please reply to all of this message. You do quoting by using the words "quote" and "/quote" in Square Brackets to do this. There is also a button beneith each message with "reply" on it, this quotes all the text. Thanks for pointing this out to me, I guessed it was some sort of tag but didn't know what. |
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Phillip Martin Member Posts: 56 From: Yeppoon, QLD, Australia Registered: 01-31-2001 |
quote: Set out to insult the version you use? I did no such thing. New king james happens to be my preferred translation as well, so it would be strange of me to insult the very book I read. As you most likely noted, I called my own words tripe. Dog food. A waste of time. In short, it was a (in hind sight) poor attempt at humour and rediculousness.
quote: You are exactly right, and it happens quite often in the other books of the new testament too. You, and I, and everyone else here is in a position to point out things that are not right, and pull borters and sisters up. My point was the only one who can safely say (that is, be 100% accurate) is the Lord.
quote: Collect them or not, you still listen to them every day. Practicing desicernment, as you no doubt do, is good.
quote: In the introduction of "The Message" in states "The goal is not to render a word-for-word conversion from Greek into English...". I can't say what any of te others say though.
quote: Ugh, I know what you mean about mark 16. Quite a large kafuffle over that one. And yes, it is another story
quote: Agreed. It does reiterate your point. I was agreeing with you, not opposing. Do I get a cooked dinner though? I'm only in queensland!
quote: Yes, that is preciely what the verse says. I did not provide my interpretation of it sice the verse pretty much spoke for itself.
quote: This is my fault, I should have made my words clearer. It was not directred at "you", but a half soliloquoy of sorts. It was half self directored, half public directed. Speaking in tongues is not your works. It is the holy spirit. Again I apologise. Being 'nice' as you put it is a work. However, love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control are all fruits of the spirit. (Gal 5:22). Salvation by being nice, is not the way, however, if you are saved, then those fruits will bear on your tree. (to be clear, once again the 'you' does not refer to you, but a general person.)
quote: No, I don't go there, I used to though. just what you are saying is very similar to their key doctrine.
quote: Heh, you did get it all. Unfortuantely it wasn't received the way I hoped for Phil |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
quote: In that case I'm sorry I didn't get it. quote: Actually, no. You'll note in Acts 8 that the apostles were happy to tell people they were not Christians. If someone is OK before God after becoming a Christian is what will be revealed in the end. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: So you're contending Phillip may have been wrong ? That there is no 'safe' way to know if someone is a Christian or not ?
I actually make a point of not collecting peoples opinions, I prefer just to read the Bible. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: You're right, I'm making a distinction between hearing them and seeking them out, having 'itching ears'. quote: This is true - my point is the versions in question actually don't even claim not to have diverged from the original text. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: OK then, so my point is made. It is not a reliable version to be building any doctrine from.
You're thinking of Mark 16 ( don't get me started on why these verses should be included, that is another story ). I'm talking about verses here & there just missing, no footnotes or anything. They were not of core importance, but the fact that they were cut out with no reference to the fact was the reason I abandoned the NIV. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: *grin* quote: suggesting it is the path to salvation, my point then stands and is in fact re-enforced by your post. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: Well, you're welcome to pop down any time you like... Otherwise, I'm going to Sydney in November, if you want to meet half way. quote: Yup - lots of gifts BUT THE manifestation of the Spirit is given to all ( not 'and a manifestation is given', as it should read to support the general position of Christendom. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
quote: This is hilarious. People who claim being a Christian means accepting Jesus and being a nice person seek salvation by works. How is it my works for God to give me a specific gift in accordance with His promise ? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: No problems - I have many years experience of how easy communication breaks down in forums like this, and people get misread.
quote: Of course, the fruits are required in the life of a Christian, they are equally important to the gifts. I agree 100 %. quote: Then the people you are with in church are a wrong to presume to judge you. If you have the Holy spirit then that is it, it's up to you how often you want to step out and enjoy the blessing of using the gifts. I'm glad you operate the gifts though, does this mean the URK you gave is from your church ? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: Fair enough. If indeed people gave you a hard time because of how frequently you did or did not use the gifts then it was probably a good move. quote: I think I got it all ;0) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
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Phillip Martin Member Posts: 56 From: Yeppoon, QLD, Australia Registered: 01-31-2001 |
quote: You know, thats pretty funny. I just thought I'd bring up my reasons for visiting the site every now and then. Just to put it into context: Been saved bout two years now. Before that I was a keen Quake player, and wrote a few tools for the Modelling community out there. Hung out in irc a great deal (#model_design on efnet at the time, its on enterthegame now). But then I got saved, found other things to do out in the sunshine instead of my little cave and keyboard. Recently I started hanging out there a bit, and it is full of smutty jokes, swearing, and pretty much everything. Heck its just an online slice of the world. I don't enjoy listening to such things, but I still hang out, because I'm a little (hopefully) shining light. I come here when I want a place without swearing and smut. Its a nice place to talk games and programming without the extra baggage of the world. 'Nuff said. Phil |
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Phillip Martin Member Posts: 56 From: Yeppoon, QLD, Australia Registered: 01-31-2001 |
quote: In my OPINION no I don't think there is. Humans are stupid. Easily tricked. If someone did all the right things to fit in, they could last for some time and be thought of as a christian. It is easy to tell if they are not little christs by teh obvious things, like worshipping idols, all the obvious things. But it is much harder when it is more subtle. The Lord decides, not me. I can make my best guess, but there is a chance I'll still be wrong. Phil |
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Phillip Martin Member Posts: 56 From: Yeppoon, QLD, Australia Registered: 01-31-2001 |
quote: Heh, no they didn't do that. What I said was a made up imaginary example. If any one from RF is reading. Hello! |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To be honest, I wasn't looking to get drawn into a long conversation in the first place. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: *grin* I know, I just can't help myself sometimes....
quote: Reminds me of when I got a web cam and then quickly found that everyone else on-line was using them to flash their nakedness at each other. Ech. I got rid of it pretty quick.
quote: The funny thing is, I am prolific on www.codeproject.com, and it's not anything like that - the odd swear word or what-ever, but big deal. It's a friendly place where I can talk to like minded individuals about programming and help people who are starting out. That seems to be everyones attitude to the place. One thing that always scares me is Christians thinking they have a monopoly on being nice people, which is patently not the case. quote:
quote: Assuming that fitting in was all that matters, that there is no manifestation from God which shows the divine seal, the fact that God has accepted and saved a person. So why doesn't the Bible record the apostles telling Philip off for making such an assumption, indeed why does it appear to assume we know how they could tell that people didn't have the Holy Spirit ?
quote: I take it then that you've not recieved the Holy Spirit yourself ? Or have you decided it doesn't matter ?
Fair enough. If indeed people gave you a hard time because of how frequently you did or did not use the gifts then it was probably a good move --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: OK - can I ask why you did leave then ? I'm just curious because your original post read like this was the reason.... |
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Krylar Administrator Posts: 502 From: MD, USA Registered: 03-05-2001 |
Heya, Sorry I haven't been participating much in these discussions. It's been a crazy couple of weeks. Hopefully it'll let up in a few more. MMIO: Looks like you're becomming a regular, which I honestly didn't expect. I'm glad you decided to stay and debate. I've never heard of codeproject.com, I look forward to checking it out as soon as I get some more time Thanks to everyone for keeping things moving...we've actually had a record week on the site for articles reads (Blitz reads were astoundingly high this week), new signups and participation on the board, and our hits nearly tripled. Somebody must have tossed us in a link section on something big. Thanks! -Krylar ------------------ |
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Phillip Martin Member Posts: 56 From: Yeppoon, QLD, Australia Registered: 01-31-2001 |
quote: Web sites are somewhat different. But still, it is rare to find a site like that. GameDev.com and flipcode.com (Your product ViewBuild just had a screen short there. Was a wacky coincidence Well I'm glad to say I haven't met Christians who think they are the only nice people in the world. No one I know is that far removed from reality.
quote: Because it is true. However there is little outward difference to someone who is actually speaking tongues, and someone you is just babbling. It doesn't make any sense to us either way. Unless the holy ghost tells me in plain english that the man is a fraud, then no, I can't tell. If that makes me an unfaithless wretch, then so be it, and the Lord will dela with me.
quote: I have, as you know. Can't speak in tongues with out it (see a previous post). I know I have it, and people just have to have faith that I do.
quote: Because their doctrine was wrong. They taught that you must be Baptized, spirit filled, and tongue speaking in order to be saved. They spent to much time on that, that too many other equally saving factors were left out. It was creating a unloving, harsh, self righteous and religeous (if I can use that term) group of people whom I didn't want to be with. Phil [This message has been edited by Phillip Martin (edited July 02, 2001).] |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The funny thing is, I am prolific on www.codeproject.com, and it's not anything like that - the odd swear word or what-ever, but big deal. It's a friendly place where I can talk to like minded individuals about programming and help people who are starting out. That seems to be everyones attitude to the place. One thing that always scares me is Christians thinking they have a monopoly on being nice people, which is patently not the case. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: Yeah, Alex just submitted that shot the other day. I look at flipcode from time to time, but I don't really post there.
quote: I met plenty prior to becoming a Christian. quote: ... indeed why does it appear to assume we know how they could tell that people didn't have the Holy Spirit ? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: The real question is 'why would anyone PRETEND to recieve the Holy Spirit' ? If someone did ( and I've never known it to happen ) I'm sure it would become apparant. If you've ever been with someone who recieved the Holy Spirit you'd know that it's pretty obvious what has happened, not just because they speak in tongues. quote: I take it then that you've not recieved the Holy Spirit yourself ? Or have you decided it doesn't matter ? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: I thought so, but I've been so bombarded by people posting to me here that it's hard to keep track. quote: OK - can I ask why you did leave then ? I'm just curious because your original post read like this was the reason....
quote: Too bad you feel that way - because that is exactly what the Bible says. Well, it says you must be baptised, and that God gives you the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues.
quote: I don't know the people, so I cannot comment. But ultimately, the Bible *does* say that every Christian recieves evidence in the form of speaking in tongues. It is the outward manifestation of an inward experience, and so much of the Bible backs this that I am constantly amazed anyone can think otherwise. Of *course* tongues is not all that matters, in fact in a Christian church tongues is a given, and so just like Pauls letters only mention the gift in passing unless it is out of order ( 1 Cor 12-14 ) we too should be focused amongst ourselves on the issues relating to walking as a Christian. However, these issues are irrelevant to people who are not yet Christians, they constitute works if done apart from the Spirit. So the outward message is of Gods power revealing Himself to the individual in a way He has defined, the inward message is of walking in the Spirit. |
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Phillip Martin Member Posts: 56 From: Yeppoon, QLD, Australia Registered: 01-31-2001 |
quote: A number of other things about salvation are stated as well, which were missed out. Phil [This message has been edited by Phillip Martin (edited July 02, 2001).] |
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MadProf Member Posts: 181 From: Larnaka, Cyprus Registered: 01-24-2001 |
MeanManInOz: I fear I do not agree with you about the speaking in tongues bit... however, I do believe that some christians do speak in tongues, and that it is a gift from God. Personally, I believe that recieving Jesus, being born again, or whatever you call it, being saved, is an inward experiance, as I think you say, but I believe that not all people speak in tongues when they do... Lets take a really silly example, of a person being born without a tongue, or without being able to speak, or something, can they become a christian? Of course! I have a tongue, and can speak, but perhaps God does not with me to speak in tongues (at any rate, in this time in my life). This shows how I do not understand you, it sounds, from this end, as if you are saying that no-one is a christian unless they have spoken in tongues, which means that dumb people cannot become christains. Brother, lets stop this arguing! I am still a youngster (14), and so have a long way to go in life (i hope),and have a lot of things to learn. I may be wrong, I dont know. I'll be speaking to others in RL about this and other subjects, and my view of the subject(s) may change. God loves us all, and so this is the whole point of what I believe, if God loves us, and we truely accept his love, and Jesus' sacrifice for our sins, then he will forgive us, and send his holy spirit to comfort and guide us. Sometimes, when this happens, people speak in tongues, or are healed, or something miraculus. but for others, they may not have these experiances. This is my belief, from personal experiance, and from reading the bible (lots of translations, and "not translations", or whatever you call thems!). This sort of thological argument/discussion is often a good thing to have, it helps us look harder at what we belive, but sometimes it is not helpful, as it can just get us angry, upset at people, annoyed, or just put others who read the site off looking harder at christianity, for fear of such loud opinions (mine being one of them! God bless you, MadProf |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
Philip: there are other things that relate to living as a Christian, as I have said. Unless you ellucidate I can't comment on your experience, as I wasn't there.
quote: Fair enough. From 1 Cor 12, do you believe only some Christians have faith, or wisdom, or can be healed ?
quote: I don't see how you can use the term 'born again' and divorce it from the experience attached to it in the Bible.
quote: He wants you to become a Christian and the sooner the better. When you do, you will speak in tongues. It's easy to come up with hypotheticals, all of which seem to assume God has no power. Do you believe God can heal ? Do you believe the 'question' of people without tongues ( I've never met one, how many can there be ??? ) in any way relates to the message of the Bible to you ?
quote: Not at all, it means salvation is in God's court, and He is able to heal people. No-one is a Christian unless they have spoken in tongues, because otherwise God is a liar - the Bible says He gives this gift to everyone at the point of conversion.
quote: It would appear you do. I don't want to argue, I find I am pushed into it by people opposing the Gospel, however well intentioned.
quote: And if we truly 'accept His love' it will be on His terms, not ours.
quote: It is easy to come to such a belief if you read books written to Christians and assume they apply to you, because the Bible has a lot of advice and encouragement to give that is not in anyway related to speaking in tongues. This does not change the fact that it is instruction to people who already have this gift and are walking in the Spirit. If 1 Cor 12 says only some speak in tongues, then it says only some Christians have faith or can be healed. Do you believe that ?
quote: That's cool - I tend to be pretty up front regarding my opinions, if you didn't notice ;0) I'm happy for anyone to try and prove me wrong from the Bible, an offer I have been making on-line for years. In the end it comes down to people coming back to tell me they don't know what verses like Zeph 3:9 or Acts 8 mean, but they refuse to believe they mean what they say, because otherwise they have to face the fact they are not yet Christians. It's sad that whenever I set out to tell people how they can become Christians, they get upset because I'm telling them they aren't yet. It seems to me that my opinion on the topic is worth close to zip, what God thinks matters, and therefore what the Bible says deserves serious investigation. What I say makes no difference either way - if you're a Christian or not will not change by my words, unless they prompt you to obey the Gospel and become one. Ultimately it's up to God, and up to you to do something about it. |
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MadProf Member Posts: 181 From: Larnaka, Cyprus Registered: 01-24-2001 |
quote: LOL!
quote: This is a bit of a tricky thing to do, i'm sure everyone who tries will agree!
quote: Zeph 3:9 (niv): Acts 8 (niv): too long to quote, but I can see what you mean. I think, at last, i begin to understand you, however, the one bit i dont understand is, "when someone is filled with the holy spirit, then that someone speaks in tongues" which you say. 1 Cor 12:10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues which you told be to look at ch.12, which i have, and low and behold, i find this (and more similar). this says (to me) that not all christians will speak in tongues.
quote: i can imagine! acording to your definition of the term chirstian, i am not one. however, using that def, you lock out practically all who claim to be. many people will be upset by this, thinking you are being supersilious or whatever, i confess i thought this about you myself, sorry. so, tell me, how can i, acording to your def., become a christian? i have accepted Jesus, he has forgiven me, and he helps and comforts me in many ways, and I love him. I thought/think this is what it means to be a christian, and that sometimes the holy spirit does not make a big show about being there.
quote: dont be silly! of course it matters. everyones opin. matters, just sometimes people dont apreciate it, often if it is not expressed in a way they like. this could be the prob. MadProf |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm happy for anyone to try and prove me wrong from the Bible, an offer I have been making on-line for years. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
quote:
quote: I'm pleased, most people miss my point entirely the first time I bring it to their attention.
quote: That is correct. Like they did in Acts 2, 10 and 19. Like is promised in verses I have pointed out and many others.
quote: This is in context of operating gifts in a meeting, hence the body analogy, and the fact that 1 Cor 13 is all about the motivation behind using the gifts, and 14 is all about how they SHOULD operate in a meeting. However, if 1 Cor 12 does indeed list gifts that only some HAVE, as opposed to USE, then only some Christians have faith or wisdom, or the ability to pray to be healed. 1 Cor 12 asks DO all speak in tongues, requiring a no answer, but 1 Cor 14 says call CAN speak in tongues emphatically. I can show you verses that show we can all ask for wisdom, we can all pray for healing, we certainly must all have faith. Indeed at the end of 1 Cor 14 Paul tells them to forbid not tongues ( they were all doing it at once, and were told to do it in an orderly way ) and see prophecy. Why seek it if only a few can have it ? quote:
quote: Jesus said it was a narrow path that leads to salvation, and few find it. I guess He was right ;0) I'm not looking to lock anyone out, neither is God. But the fact is that Paul was also right - wolves entered the flock and diluted the doctrine pretty quickly, and the result is the powerless religion we see today.
quote: Accepting Jesus does not occur in the Bible. Telling Him you know He has forgiven you does not make it so. In fact, it's not about forgiveness in the sense that repentance doesn't mean covering yourslef in sackcloth and ashes and weeping over your past. It's about accepting a new beginning. The answer to the question 'what must we do' in Acts 2 was to do three things: 1/ Repent. This means be willing to do things God's way, to meet Him on His terms. It doesn't mean dwell on the past, it means look forward to a new start. 2/ Be baptsed. Full immersion baptism is the sign of a good consience before God, and symbolic of the willingness to bury the old life. 3/ You shall recieve the Holy Spirit. This doesn't mean baptism automatically means you have the Holy Spirit, Jesus said to ask and keep on asking, not because God holds out on us, but sometimes we hold out on Him. Fortunately for us ( and Philip in Acts 8 ) He givesa sign to show someone has recieved the Holy Spirit, namely speaking in tongues. The reason for this is that we 'do not know what to pray for, as we should', so the Spirit gives us the words, words we do not understand and therefore are incorruptable. I'd suggest you look for a church that preaches these things, get baptised and see if God keeps His Word ( of course He will... ) quote:
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Phillip Martin Member Posts: 56 From: Yeppoon, QLD, Australia Registered: 01-31-2001 |
quote: Which is why I wasn't specific. A discussion of a churchs beliefs is counter productive. I may as well sit here and talk about the Hunky Dorey church of Idahoh (ficticous name). Phil |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
Too bad it's fictitious - it's a great name !!! |
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MadProf Member Posts: 181 From: Larnaka, Cyprus Registered: 01-24-2001 |
'fraid i dont agree with you about the speaking in tongues... and i doubt if i will. sorry. however, i agree with you (i think), about pretty much everything else! we could have a L O N G discussion about tongues, perhaps we should (not at the mo! i'm on holiday! and not much time online), one that reaches for 20+ pages of messages. hehe! however, as i've said before ( i think ), speaking in tongues is one of the many ways the holy spirit shows himself (is that the correct pronoun?), and in your church/denomination that is the way that he does! hallehluya! (spelling?)
quote: I am, brother!
quote: this is something i am hoping to discuss with someone when we get back to cyp.
quote: the parable about the judge and the wronged woman come into this, i think?
quote: hehe! this is the bit i disagree on, about showing a sign. at least, a visable (audable) one like speaking in tongues. IMHO, it could be an inward sign only. but this is a point for another discussion.
quote: perhaps, i interperate this differently, but anyway.
quote: our church is kinda difficult to discribe... you would probably not aprove. we dont have any "strict" denomination, its a community church, but there is a largish southern baptist influance, anglican (english, CE), and a mixture of others. i'll be talking to a SB chap about baptism (and other stuff), but hes not a ranting and raving SB... like some i've met, not offence to SBs, or ranting raving ones, of course! MadProf |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
quote: It's too bad that the fundamental has been thrown away by churchianity. The Bible talks about people who appear to be Christians but 'deny the power thereof'. Nothing makes me more sad than people who have a genuine desire to follow God but reject His message because it's not what they are used to hearing, or because it means that Jesus was right when He said that there would be few that found the road that leads to eternal life.
quote: I find this doctrine the most dangerous of all - but we let people speak in tongues, it's just that not everyone has the gift. I personally was going to a church that, when they found out I'd recieved the Holy Spirit, were quick to tell me most of them also spoke in tongues, it was just never spoken of in case those who didn't were made to feel uncomfortable. This is not shining a light on a hill.
1/ Repent. This means be willing to do things God's way, to meet Him on His terms. It doesn't mean dwell on the past, it means look forward to a new start. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am, brother!
2/ Be baptsed. Full immersion baptism is the sign of a good consience before God, and symbolic of the willingness to bury the old life. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: I'd be happy to fill this site with scriptures that demand baptism and ones written to converts that assume baptism has taken place. I am astonished at churches that say it is a personal choice and can be done later. It *is* a personal choice. So is following Jesus. If people don't want to make that choice, then they walk alone. quote:
quote: Yes, this parable is given just prior to Jesus saying to ask and keep on asking , for if we, being evil, know how to give good gifts to our children, how much more will the Father give us the Holy Spirit ? The question is if the Greek says to keep on asking until we have recieved, how do we know we have recieved ? The church says we know we have the Holy Spirit, because we are in Him. The Bible says we know we are in Him because He has given us the Spirit. So how do we tell ? Luke assumes when writing Acts 2 that the answer is obvious to his readers. quote:
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quote: I'd be interested to hear how else it can be interpreted that is internally consistent with the verses in question and backed up by other scripture ( Zeph 3:9 springs to mind ). quote:
quote: I have no trouble with any sort of denomination, denominations are only needed because of the plethora of false doctrine that calls itself Christian. All that matters is doing what the Bible says. I apologise if I have been kind of rude in this post, in so far as it seems to me you have tried to build some bridges. But salvation is simply an issue I can't agree to disagree on, and I believe what you are saying is wrong. I hope you see that the only reason I have for persisting in such a discussion is a desire to see you filled with the Holy Spirit, and take my comments in that light. |
! "I say you chaps, I really cant understand why you have this site, dontcha know, jolly spiffin' design the front page has though, wot!" seems better to me, but anyway.
