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BrentLatham Member Posts: 27 From: England Registered: 03-29-2007 |
Unfortunately, I can't take the praise for this wondeful question which surely can't actually have a definite answer but opinions only...or can it? It was Jari who asked this in an earlier thread: Do you believe God affects all things or is there actually something called random? ------------------ |
kenman Member Posts: 518 From: Janesville WI Registered: 08-31-2006 |
The answer - it depends I think that God has the ability to affect all things, but he has given us free will. If we want to randomize our free will then we can. I.E. gambling (see other thread). |
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BrentLatham Member Posts: 27 From: England Registered: 03-29-2007 |
I have to say I like to think there is. When I role the dice to play yahtzee or a board game I want to know that what I'm about to role is really and truly random! I love the positions you come to in a game when the next role is a make or break role...and you stand up, shaking the dice and if you are anything like me you start talking to them...come on you sixes...you know that moment? Its fantastic and leaves you either jumping for joy, back on the edge of tension as you wait to see what your opponent throws or wails of unbelief as the game ends with you on the losing side! I don't really care if God knows what I'm about to throw, I just want to know that the game is won by whatever skill is needed and a lot of luck inbetween! ------------------ |
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Matt Langley Member Posts: 247 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-31-2006 |
I don't think there is truly "random". I think we have deduced what we consider the closest thing to random as random... for example: The roll of dice: It may seem random to us, though in the end it's based off of the velocity of the dice, the angles on the dice, wind speed (or the equivalent of such, like AC effecting air speed, etc) and numerous other aspects. In the end if you create a deterministic physics simulation and simulate dropping the dice at the same location -exactly- you will get the same results. Unfortunately (or fortunately) our human bodies can't replicate an exact same action and typically things outside our control effect this.
These are used in computer games, computer programs, anything on the computer based off a random value. The random value really is just a mathematical value determined from a seed number. This seed number is usually taken off some sort of time value (usually the system value of the machine), this time value is the closest thing to an unpredictable value as we can get... the change someone is casting a spell in a game at the same day value, month value, year value, and millisecond value is more than unlikely, which is where we get our closest representation of a "random" value. As far as our choices and free will: I believe in free will, though I don't believe in random will. Someone asked me this before, based on my answer they asked if I believed life and reality is deterministic then... My answer would be yes and no... I believe life and reality is made up of deterministic paths, though our choices and actions among these deterministic paths is up to us and to us would seem random. You have a million plus choices of what you will do in the next second, though they are deterministic... I believe God comprehends things at this level... I mean considering how deterministic we can get with physics simulations I can't even fathom how quickly God can determine the results of every possible action we make... in fact I think for him it takes no time at all (or what we would consider no time)... I think he simply knows the results of any possible action. Thats my belief in God having plans and knowing the future and our own free will. I believe we have the free will, but God knows the result of every action we could ever make so he knows every possible future. I also have noticed most of God's prophecies seem like a prophecy at our level, though really are simply promises. I mean God can do anything, so he can easily say in a few hundred years I will flood the earth, send the moon crashing down, and raise everything to life again, etc... To us this is a prophecy, to God I simply think it is a promise. There's my rambling lol ------------------ |
Faith_Warrior Member Posts: 490 From: So.Cal. Registered: 09-05-2006 |
Uh-oh, is this a Calvinism vs. Armenianism thread? Looks like it was set up to be so. Now I know random.c does exist, it uses the rnd() to make it work. But does God cause random.c to generate the results that he wants? Nah, He just knows the outcome, but the random.c code can generate any possible outcome it is capable of. That does not make God any lesser that He is not required to generate the response code for every outcome, naturally that just makes Him greater, as the Master Programmer since His finished code can run without need for direct intervention to make it function. Unfortunately, Satan is crawling with bugs and viruses, so yes God must keep watch to make sure it does not all generate the blue screen of death. |
TallBill Member Posts: 298 From: St. Louis, MO Registered: 11-22-2002 |
The question is an interesting question. I guess the answer depends upon how you define the term “random”. To me, the very nature of the term “random” requires that the outcome be completely unknown—to anyone at all—because if anyone at all knows the outcome in advance, that outcome was predetermined (or, pre-known) and since the outcome was predetermined, how can you say it was random? This also bears upon an essential of the orthodox (that is, non-heretical) Christian faith, that being that God (who is most certainly included in the set defined by the term “anyone at all”) quite necessarily knows all things (which is the definition of the term “omniscient”). Because God is omnipresent, and all-powerful, He most necessarily is perfectly well aware of all things, because if He were unaware of anything at all, how could He have power over that which He is not aware of? If there is anything at all that He is not aware of, and therefore has no power over, He therefore is not all-powerful, and therefore is not God. It then follows that in order for God to be God, He must be aware of absolutely everything, and that means that there is nothing unknown to Him. Since there is nothing unknown to Him, there is nothing that is truly unknown. Since there is nothing that is truly unknown, there is nothing that is truly random. Certainly there are many things that APPEAR to be random to our limited, fallible consciousness, but that doesn’t make any of them truly random. ------------------ "...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High." |
Calin Member Posts: 358 From: Moldova Registered: 12-04-2006 |
quote: Agreed but can God influence the outcome from rnd() I think yes. ------------------ |
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Faith_Warrior Member Posts: 490 From: So.Cal. Registered: 09-05-2006 |
quote: sure |
zookey Member Posts: 1902 From: Great Falls, Montana, USA Registered: 04-28-2002 |
yes there is things that are random. When you drop a rock, what side it will land on is mainly random---so there is such a thing----BUT with things such as life on our planet, it is true that it COULD be random but the chances are so remote that scientists usually say that it is outside of the realm of probability--that life and our existence is more likely to have a purpose because the liklihood of randomness is so small. You know how they say like winning the lottery is random and it is like a 1 in a million chance? Well, once something passes one in 10 to the power of 280 (if my memory serves me right, got that from www.yzine.com) scientists no longer classify it as a random event, something with those odds is considered a deliberate act and the liklihood of our universe and life happening accidentally far exceeds that. ------------------ |
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Matt Langley Member Posts: 247 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-31-2006 |
quote: A realistic physics simulation with huge power could simulate this and figure it out, due to gravity, height dropped, angles on the rocks, wind resistance, the material it lands on, etc... we are at that point in physics simulation or very close to it... though just to determine a single physics simulation of a rock dropping in a way that mirrors reality takes us an amazing amount of processing. ------------------ |
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zookey Member Posts: 1902 From: Great Falls, Montana, USA Registered: 04-28-2002 |
quote: LOL no lie ehehe but still though it is ultimately a simulation of reality, computers can't really do true randomness---even in gambling when you play keno or whatever the PC inside the machine has a list of possible outcomes several thousand entries long and just goes through that list, the list is so big that it simulates randomness but, from what I understand, a computer can't do it because of the nature on how coding demands a specific response as opposed to a random one---so life has the capability for randomness but we can't recreate the randomness, which as far as I am concerned shows how much more intellegent God is than us that he could do that. ------------------ |
Ereon Member Posts: 1018 From: Ohio, United States Registered: 04-12-2005 |
I disagree about that statement that life has the capability for randomness. Everything within purely physical human experience (Apart from the spirit) is entirely and completely replicatable and adheres to certain set (but very complex) laws and systems of action and reaction. With enough care and enough knowledge of all the minute details I think it is possible to observe, and even perfectly predict, outcomes and final results of any purely physically controlled process or series of events. True, such detailed knowledge and the ability to execute it is most likely in many cases far beyond human ability, but I think it still exists, even if we can't entirely understand it. Randomness, I think, is primarily an illusion drawn from our inability to perceive perfectly the complex series of cause and effect that creates the final "random" outputs that we see on a day to day basis. To an extent I would say that reality itself, in a way, is nothing more than a visible rendering of abstract data gathered by our senses and constructed into reality perceived by our limited minds and even more limited senses. Outside of our spirits and free-will, there is nothing random or free within the physical realm. ------------------ |
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zookey Member Posts: 1902 From: Great Falls, Montana, USA Registered: 04-28-2002 |
isn't free will random though? true on the reality is our perception thing--ultimately everything you see and feel is your brain's registering of electrical signals (hehe MATRIX!) What about rolling a dice? I think there are some things that are random (maybe you could count free will out, since people's choices are often, but not always, influenced by life experience and moral values which adds some predictability). ------------------ |
bwoogie Member Posts: 380 From: kansas usa Registered: 03-12-2005 |
random like the big bang?! :O :P God knows what your next move is anyways, random or not, so technically, it really wasnt random. sorry if all that has already been coverd, i just picked some random posts and read them... ------------------ |
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zookey Member Posts: 1902 From: Great Falls, Montana, USA Registered: 04-28-2002 |
quote: The Big Bang couldn't have been random (like 2 of my posts back--it exceeds the probabilty to be random)--I think God knows all the choices you can make, but the choice is up to you---which is why you have to choose to accept Jesus. Otherwise, if free will, choice and randomness didn't exist, God wouldn't have to send Jesus to die in our place and clear our sins because he could have just removed randomness, free will, choices and sin as options and thus we wouldn't have any sins that needed atoning. ------------------ |
CPUFreak91 Member Posts: 2337 From: Registered: 02-01-2005 |
quote: I kinda think the same way. I beleive that random goes arm in arm with time. After all computers cannot generate random number, their "randomness" is actually based on time. Truly random probably exists, but I don't think I've ever seen it. Oh wait... the big bang was truly random. ------------------ "Oh, bother," said the Borg. "We've assimilated Pooh." "Socialism works great... if there are no people involved." -- Pastor David Ginter, Union Church of Guatemala. |
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Faith_Warrior Member Posts: 490 From: So.Cal. Registered: 09-05-2006 |
quote: Now if time were only a constant, you might have something there. I would say randomness is better related to chaos which does not always follow laws rather than something such as free will which would be less compatible with any such idea of randomness. |
Jari Member Posts: 1471 From: Helsinki, Finland Registered: 03-11-2005 |
Hi, I decided not to read this thread fully but just post some verses for you to check out (remember to note the context). But don't forget to see what Matt said about "random computer values" and "The roll of dice" which are worth to ponder in my opinion.
Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD. Pro 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD. Pro 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps. Note that those last three verses were from same chapter. So it's good to read in context. Isa 14:26-27 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations. [27] For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back? May God bless your study!
[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3) [This message has been edited by jari (edited April 05, 2007).] |
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BrentLatham Member Posts: 27 From: England Registered: 03-29-2007 |
After reading TallBills post...well actually all of your posts...I figured that I had better go to dictionary.com and look up the definition! Asking a bunch of programmers about random was actually a bad idea Anyway, the definition is: This of course doesn't negate TallBills random definition - which I thought was quite persuasive - but does make things a little simpler for me. As a Christian I beleive that anything to do with creation - however it happened ie big bang or something else - couldn't be random because there was a purpose to it! I also now believe that throwing a dice or dropping a rock is a random act because although it probably can be recreated with a simulation using various parameters they are thrown in a haphazard type of way! However, its just occurred to me if I through 5 dice and shouted sixes and actually roled sixes would that still be random because even though I through them in a haphazard type of way I through them with a purpose of getting sixes... ------------------ |
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Faith_Warrior Member Posts: 490 From: So.Cal. Registered: 09-05-2006 |
quote: Yes, as in the thesaurus word related to chaotic or chaos. |
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TallBill Member Posts: 298 From: St. Louis, MO Registered: 11-22-2002 |
quote: Does God do anything without prior aim, purpose, method, or adherence to a prior arrangement; or in a haphazard way? Surely God has a purpose in all things and in every thing has a purpose, even His own glory, through the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. As I said earlier, things might APPEAR random to us, but that does not make any of them truly random. One of the greatest sources of comfort for believers is that “whatever my lot, Thou has taught me to say, ‘It is well!’”. How can we say that? We can say that because whatever happens happens according to God’s will and to the fulfillment of His purpose. Though it be astoundingly beyond our ability to comprehend, God even has a purpose for placing a particular subatomic particle from the sheet of paper on this side of the blade, rather than that. Praise God that He who neither slumbers nor sleeps but who purposes all things shall protect His own through all things to the glory of God the Father. Amen! ------------------ "...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High." [This message has been edited by TallBill (edited April 05, 2007).] |
samw3 Member Posts: 542 From: Toccoa, GA, USA Registered: 08-15-2006 |
I believe randomness is a figure of humans imagination. Just like "Empty" or "Cold" or "Dark". These are semantic labels for things we don't fully understand. Randomness is simply a system with various outcomes that are unpredictable/uncontrollable by humans, like zookey's rock. To say there is something unpredictable by God is to say God is not omniscient. To say there is something uncontrollable by God is to say God is not omnipotent. I believe in a God that can track and influence the oscillations of the smallest of quantum particles, and has a large enough mental capacity to easily sway a galaxy's location by flipping these sub-atomic bits in His universal computer. Consequentially, this is also why I think miracles are not only feasible but a piece of cake for God to pull off. Resurrection is child's play if you can organize massive amounts of sub-atomic particles. It is man who sees death and decay as irreversible. I believe God has a programmer's heart. DNA is code. Sub-atomics use discreet quantum states like "digital" bits. And the universe's variables are so finely tuned, one small fluctuation throws the whole system off and life and matter can no longer exist. So, as for randomness, it is just a showcase of God's complexity. The big bang is bull-you-know-what. ------------------ |
Lazarus Member Posts: 1668 From: USA Registered: 06-06-2006 |
quote: Hear, hear! |
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zookey Member Posts: 1902 From: Great Falls, Montana, USA Registered: 04-28-2002 |
If free-will wasn't truly random, why do we need Jesus? If God knew-and actively manipulated the choices of humans-why send his son to die a horrible death when he could much easier take free will and thusly sin away? I think God knows all the outcomes, but he leaves the choice to us--that isn't lack of power it is the ultimate act of love, he wants us to chose him, not the other way around. Jesus is the biggest wrench in the whole 'nothing is random' thing, if God knew everything that was going to happen and can manipulate it why let it happen? The Big Bang is actually science's biggest gift to Christianity----it scientifically verifies Genesis' account of creation. Let there be light anyone? All they found out by discovering the Big Bang is scientific proof of what we already knew, that a massive light-explosion created the universe. This actually spirals even further since it raises the question (again, we know the answer) how could people in ancient times come up with a creation story that so closely mimics the scientific evidence unless they had inside knowledge? ------------------ |
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JeTSpice Member Posts: 433 From: La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA Registered: 06-10-2006 |
Hello, Good Christians What a great thread. A million thanks to Jari for using Scripture. For those of you who go to science, philosophy, or religion first, here is some spirited Swordplay. For the religious: Pre-destination is not pre-knowledge. To destine someone is to choose them for a particular end. It ursurps the free will and renders the person's choice to love meaningless. The Scriptures say nothing about pre-destination, but everything about foreknowledge. For the scientific: Physics cannot determine both the speed and position of an electron. This therefore produces a random result. Check this out: http://liveammo.blogspot.com/2006/09/god-does-not-play-dice.html or go here and search for the word "random": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics And more... The Bible specifically negates the Big Bang theory. In Genesis 1, God creates all the stars within the sky, not within space. This in no way can be figuratively referencing a big bang. Read this and be set free-- Even if each "day" of creation is meant to be a billion years, then the Bible would be suggesting that grass came upon the earth a billion years before the stars emerged from gas clouds. Grass before stars? Ridiculous! Believe in Genesis or believe in the big bang.
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zookey Member Posts: 1902 From: Great Falls, Montana, USA Registered: 04-28-2002 |
hey good info  From everything I have ever heard (which isn't a lot, but is a combination of what I read in High School as well as stuff from Y-Zine www.yzine.com, which uses science to prove the Bible) the BigBang lines up with Genesis so well it is shocking, and that many Scientists had apparently been so shocked by the information the Big bang involves (and leads too) that they subtly hint that it causes them to personally believe in creation over 'accidental existence'---Logic and Faith aren't opposing forces God made both to work togther---from what I understand (could be wrong, but strongly doubt I am) the Big Bang is just Science's verification of Genesis, as much as people on both sides sometimes don't like to admit---but check out Y-Zine they are very informative and both issues (Y-Origins and Y-Jesus) are worth their weight in gold.------------------ |
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samw3 Member Posts: 542 From: Toccoa, GA, USA Registered: 08-15-2006 |
quote: To pay the price for our sins and to reflect who God is to us. (That's not a pat answer, hang with me for a sec) quote: I never said that God actively manipulates all things. He built a system that He has complete control over. The universe is God's creation, not God. In many situations, easier is not always better. Sin has a purpose too. In the same way darkness reveals a definition of light, sin reveals the definition of righteousness. quote: What is a choice? Is it not determined by all the circumstances of the universe? The bible says that if it were not for the Holy Spirit no one would choose God. quote: Because it reveals His glory and what 'good' really is. It shows the destructive nature of sin and life giving nature of holiness. And Jesus is the epitome of this since he could consider himself equal with God and yet emptied himself and became a man. The only 'good' thing in creation. And yet was crucified and sacrificed himself for us. Jesus' purpose goes beyond the cross to the resurrection to His ascension to the throne of God. One question I have been ask about this is, if God indirectly caused all this to happen, how can He judge us for our actions. A good question, and the answer is Jesus. If you look at revelation, Jesus is the one who judges. And he has every right since he had to live through this broken creation and survived it unscathed by sin. Heaven's citizens in Revelation ask "Who is worthy to open the scrolls?" (the scrolls of God's judgement). Not the Father, not the Spirit, but the Lamb alone. God incarnate took a part of His own "simulation" to do what His plan was from the beginning, to reveal himself and his character to us. And to make us into His image to share eternity with Him. You can't trust a sinner with eternal life, its too destructive. (at least eternal life outside of the confines of hell) Thanks be to God for Jesus Christ! God Bless. ------------------ [This message has been edited by samw3 (edited April 05, 2007).] |
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zookey Member Posts: 1902 From: Great Falls, Montana, USA Registered: 04-28-2002 |
I don't know if i agree with the 'righteousness needs sin' thing---Satan couldn't have existed without God, but the obverse of 'God can't exist without Satan' isn't true IMO--God could have existed alone and created a world where nothing is random and all the choices are made for you----but he chose to make randomness and chose to bring in 100% free will--yes it could result in you choosing to go to Hell but it could also result in you choosing him, which he apparently thought was worth it (CS Lewis covered a similar topic in Mere Christianity I think, as to why God would take that gamble...I would have to read it again to be sure but I could swear a quote to that effect was in there)---yes the Holy Spirit helps bring you to God, but you still have to chose---it is our choice which is why judgement can take place--if God made the choice for you then he would be sinning by judging you for his choice and we know that is a literal impossibility. ------------------ |
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Faith_Warrior Member Posts: 490 From: So.Cal. Registered: 09-05-2006 |
quote: I don’t associate free will with randomness. Will is a choice, it is determined by ones knowledge of the circumstances and an educated choice made thereof, randomness is rooted in chaos, there is no free will in the equation. God gave everyone the brains to think, even though blindness of the heart exists, there are points of clarity which one is able to weigh the circumstances and make a positive decision, not a random choice. quote:The "big bang"? ...the big fizzle, it's not proven. |
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TallBill Member Posts: 298 From: St. Louis, MO Registered: 11-22-2002 |
If you don't think predestination is in the Bible you might want to have a chat with Paul of Tarsus. According to the Greek sources that I use, the term Paul uses means to foreordain, or to appoint beforehand, one to obtain something. It does not mean that He simply knew in advance what someone was going to do. It is the active setting apart of, or choosing of, someone to do something. As it is written in the Gospels, “You did not choose me, but I chose you.” It is in the aorist tense and the active voice. It is not a passive “knowing beforehand”. In 1 Corinthians 2:14 it is made clear that we are unable to choose the things of God without first having the Holy Spirit of God active within us: “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned.” The Bible teaches us that without the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit we are dead in our transgressions and sins. “How do you call a dead dog?” The dead do not choose anything. They are not able to choose anything. As it is written, “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last.” (John 15:16) (emphasis mine) ------------------ "...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High." [This message has been edited by TallBill (edited April 06, 2007).] [This message has been edited by TallBill (edited April 06, 2007).] |
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samw3 Member Posts: 542 From: Toccoa, GA, USA Registered: 08-15-2006 |
I agree with you completely, TallBill, yet the mystery is that somehow, we still have to say "I will." There's a classic example. On the front of the church a sign says "Whosoever will may come." On the inside of the church a sign says "Saved before the foundations of the world." Free-will and predestination go hand in hand in a paradox that has spurred debate unanswered since the early church. I personally think it's two sides of the same coin; each a different point of view with free-will from the eyes of earth and predestination from the view of heaven. But that's just my humble opinion to a mystery that is greater than myself God Bless! ------------------ [This message has been edited by samw3 (edited April 06, 2007).] |
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JeTSpice Member Posts: 433 From: La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA Registered: 06-10-2006 |
I stand corrected. The word "Predestination" carries a connotation of not having any choice at all. I agree with all your scriptural support. (First Corinthians, not second) Let me assure you--I made a choice for God, but there was no way I could have done that without His first actively leading me to do so. In the church where I was saved, the predestinationists had no mercy. I fit in like a glove. The pastor said "If this church were to ever sin, it would most likely be that we had lost our love." I thought "If ???" Then the Lord opened my eyes and I saw that their new building was actually the height from which they had fallen. So God took me from there to a church 1500 miles away where they said "People are going to Hell by the droves--we've got to get out there and do something!" And I'd go all over the street witnessing, witnessing at work, witnessing everywhere. There was a lot of love and fellowship. It was awesome. I worked so hard that I became employed by the church and God opened my eyes there and I saw that they were driven by power. So God took me from there 12,000 miles away to Central Asia. I had a Muslim teenager as a roommate for 2 weeks. He knew I was a Christian and said something like, "Is it true that God chooses you to go to Heaven?" I said, "Well, what do you mean by that?" He repeated the question verbatim. As I tried to explain Scripture to him, he would interrupt me and ask me the question again. I said, "Yes, but let me explain." He said "Thanks, that's all I wanted to know." and would not talk to me after that. There's all my skeletons-in-the-closet of why I hate the connotations of man-made religiosity. I find both Calvinism and Armenianism disgusting. So God brought me back to where I started and now I'm employed by two different denominations. |
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TallBill Member Posts: 298 From: St. Louis, MO Registered: 11-22-2002 |
I used to use Amiga computers (my most recent is sitting in the closet with a dead SCSI controller). One of the little known features of that system was the kernal's ability to get a super-accurate read of the power supply's voltage level. I don't know what has become of this, but I read about one Amiga coder who managed to write code that performed that super-accurate read and used the result as the seed for random number generation. It is the closest I've ever seen anyone come to true random number generation. The reason is that most computers are not in labs and not running on any sort of filtered power outside of the meager filtering that they do themselves. This allows all of the factors involved in the entire power grid to have a say in what that computer's actual voltage output is, and with that super-accurate read capability, there is realistically no way to predict what the exact voltage level would be. It's kind of like chaos theory wherein top scientists are finally recognizing that the taking in of all factors in complex natural systems is simply beyond our capacity, and likely always will be. There is a problem hidden in here, however. The problem is that most scientists are too lazy to keep that in mind. Being too lazy to keep that in mind, they start to believe that there is true randomness. Since, however, God knows all things, He is able to take in all of those factors that we cannot take in, and, given a rather large fraction of eternity (sorry, that's the best way I can put it; I know it is inherently inaccurate), He could fully and completely explain—even to our own satisfaction—why the blowing leaf turned over to the left instead of to the right with the wind blowing from straight behind it. This concept is not limited to the physical world, either. Not only does God know everything that we will ever do, He also knows all of the factors involved in every one of those decisions and actions. Who is it that created every last one of those factors? Therefore, who is it that actually made those decisions? Is it not the very One who predestines us all? There is nothing truly random, or of entirely free will. And yet, as sam has intimated, we are still responsible. If we were not, Satan would have no weapons against anyone. Without responsibility where is guilt, and yet we all feel guilt, both genuine and false. I do not for a moment believe that I will be able to comprehend (or crack) the solution to that paradox in this lifetime, but I do apprehend (or acknowledge, or see) the paradox. ------------------ "...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High." |
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TallBill Member Posts: 298 From: St. Louis, MO Registered: 11-22-2002 |
Jet, One could say that I am at something of a disadvantage to others, in that my salvation seems to have been of a somewhat rare variety. No one—and I mean no one—would witness to me. Even those around me who were and are genuinely Christian would only pray. One could almost say that even they were too terrified of me to say anything to me regarding faith; but one could also—and more accurately, I believe—say that God had, through their prayers, impressed them that “This is My project—keep your hands off!” I was an atheist of the most virulent variety, as well as being 6' 6" and hovering near to 250 pounds. One day while I was out walking by myself the LORD imposed Himself upon my consciousness and announced to me that I was saved/being saved/going to be saved. It has taken me years to get even to the small percentage of truth contained in the poem that He placed in my mind. The poem is a chiasm ( http://billsey-christian.net/tmp/ChiasmChart.pdf ), contains a once repeated numerical pattern of 3-7-10, and predicted my salvation before it ever happened—7 + 7 months before I confessed faith in Christ as my LORD and Savior (and around 2 years before I figured out who had placed that poem in my mind). I only knew at the time that it was not my thought, because it had, well, the mark of “otherness” to it. So, you can see that I come by my Calvinist leanings honestly, and a thorough listening to my “Chats” ( http://billsey-christian.net/mp3s/Chats ) will testify to my evangelistic side as well. I find that I am usually much easier on honest pagans than I am on false professors of faith, or those caught up in sinful practices, because those who know should know better, and those who do not know do not know at all. In any case, this post is getting too long, and taking too long to write (I actually created the chart in the middle of writing this post. ------------------ "...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High." EDIT: Found a bad link in my post. Sorry about that. [This message has been edited by TallBill (edited April 08, 2007).] |
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Faith_Warrior Member Posts: 490 From: So.Cal. Registered: 09-05-2006 |
quote: Well I’d try to talk to Paul but there is that language barrier, but if I were able to talk to him he would tell me that he was a Jew. The Jews are God’s chosen people, He chose them, they belong to him. So I find it difficult to prove that there is predestination in all things because God slapped one of his chosen people around and made him do his bidding. There are Christians and there are Jews, let’s not confuse them, both camps have a purpose and destination, and God is not entirely done with the Jews. Of course Paul became a Christian, but at the time that God forced Paul to do His will, he was already God’s possession as a Jew. I find it much easier to understand the bible when I keep this in mind, who is the passage/chapter/book addressing? etc… and there are large sections of the NT that are to the Jew first, that they may become Christian or be instructed in the transition from Judaism to Christianity… which at the time was more so considered a Jewish sect rather than a different religion. |
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Lazarus Member Posts: 1668 From: USA Registered: 06-06-2006 |
Faith_Warrior - you think the Jews are still God's people? Because I don't. : |
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Lava Member Posts: 1905 From: Registered: 01-26-2005 |
I know it's not addressed to me, but here are my thoughts. I believe the Jews are God's chosen people. Why? Because God doesn't change. Hebrews 13:8 And I also believe we'll still be cursed if we curse the Jews and blessed if we bless the Jews. Genesis 12:1-3 1 The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you. 2 "I will make you into a great nation 3 I will bless those who bless you, Lastly, I would like to see in scripture where the Jews are no longer his chosen. [This message has been edited by LAVA (edited April 06, 2007).] |
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Lazarus Member Posts: 1668 From: USA Registered: 06-06-2006 |
There is a spot in the Bible that can be interpreted as saying they aren't, but Lava - do you think Jews are automatically saved? |
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Lava Member Posts: 1905 From: Registered: 01-26-2005 |
I knew you would go there, lol. No, just because someone is chosen doesn't replace their sin, David was chosen to be King of Israel, but did that take away consequences of his sin when he committed adultery? About that "mystery" scripture you mentioned, I know you probably don't remember where it was, otherwise I'm sure you would post it. But could you at least ballpark it? Any idea of which Book in the Bible it is? [This message has been edited by LAVA (edited April 06, 2007).] |
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Lazarus Member Posts: 1668 From: USA Registered: 06-06-2006 |
Lol - "mystery scripture". Actually it's Romans 11.(Verses 19-22 in particular) |
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Lava Member Posts: 1905 From: Registered: 01-26-2005 |
Romans 11:19-22 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. lol could you illustrate your interpretation please? |
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Lazarus Member Posts: 1668 From: USA Registered: 06-06-2006 |
Sure. The Jewish people were broken off because of their unbelief. Just to clarify though - I'm not anti-semetic and I certainly believe that Jews can be saved. |
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Lava Member Posts: 1905 From: Registered: 01-26-2005 |
Ok, thank you. I know you were just clearing it up, but just so you know I don't believe you're anti-semetic in anyway |
Angel Member Posts: 699 From: The Blissful State Of Me? Registered: 05-21-2001 |
Dear me I can't read all that. I read some though. Answer: No. ------------------ |
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Faith_Warrior Member Posts: 490 From: So.Cal. Registered: 09-05-2006 |
quote: Yep, they are His chosen people and they still have a destiny. Currently the Bride of Christ is the focus which is the Church, but soon enough the Church will reach it’s fullness and then the focus will return back to the Jews. This will take place after the Bride of Christ is taken off the world for the wedding, then once again the Jews will be God’s representatives upon the Earth as the Church is currently. I’ll just say I’m not a big fan of replacement theology, I think the reformation didn’t go far enough at the time, but it allowed the Church to mature past the Catholic doctrines in time once we had full access to the scripture once again. |
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TallBill Member Posts: 298 From: St. Louis, MO Registered: 11-22-2002 |
Oh, how I wish you had quoted through Romans 11:23 because if you had done so, the answer to the “controversy” over whether or not the Jews are God's people would have been answered right then and there: Romans 11:23 “And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.” Consider also Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me you evil doers!’” Who are His people? His people are all of those who do the will of His Father in heaven—be they Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. Who is a true Israelite; a true Jew? In John 1:47, Jesus says, “Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false.” There is a difference between who is an ethnic Jew and who is of God's people, the true Jews. The concern over whether ethnic Israel is still God's chosen people is a false premise, a false dichotomy, a deceitful shade over the eyes of those who have not understood the scriptures. Many will call this replacement theology, but it is not replacement theology. Our LORD is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and yesterday, today, and forever a true Jew is and has always been one in whom there is nothing false, one who believes God; and it has never had anything to do with which subgroup of the one and only race of humanity to which any of them was born, for “God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved” (Ephesians 2:5) for “The LORD looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.” “I, by your great mercy, will come into your house; in reverence will I bow down toward your holy temple. Lead me, O LORD, in your righteousness because of my enemies—make straight your way before me. Not a word from their mouth can be trusted; their heart is filled with destruction. Their throat is an open grave; with their tongue they speak deceit.” “They make their tongues as sharp as a serpent’s; the poison of vipers is on their lips.” “Their mouths are full of curses and lies and threats; trouble and evil are under their tongues. they lie in wait near the villages; from ambush they murder the innocent, watching in secret for their victims.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes, for in their own eyes they flatter themselves too much to detect or hate their sin. The words of their mouths are wicked and deceitful; they have ceased to be wise and to do good. Even on their beds they plot evil; they commit themselves to a sinful course and do not reject what is wrong.” Taking guidance from the apostle Paul, given in Romans 3, this is what the Psalmist has to say about those falsely referred to as God’s people—people who have never been His. And what does the LORD say through Hosea? “Call him Lo-Ammi, for you are not my people and I am not your God.” and “Rebuke your mother! Rebuke her, for she is not my wife, and I am not her husband. Let her remove the adulterous look from her face and the unfaithfulness from between her breasts, otherwise I will strip her naked and make her as bare as on the day she was born; I will make her like a desert, turn her into a parched land, and slay her with thirst. I will not show my love to her children because they are the children of adultery.” Yet he also writes “I will lead her into the desert and speak tenderly to her.” “There she will respond” “she will call me ‘My husband’” “I will betroth you to me forever;” “I will betroth you in faithfulness,” “you will acknowledge the LORD.” Those who acknowledge the LORD will enter into His presence, into His marriage. You are not and never have been and never shall be saved by ethnicity, but only by grace, through faith, which is a gift of God and not from anything in us. ------------------ "...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High." [This message has been edited by TallBill (edited April 07, 2007).] |
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Lazarus Member Posts: 1668 From: USA Registered: 06-06-2006 |
Amen. I agree completely, Bill. |
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Faith_Warrior Member Posts: 490 From: So.Cal. Registered: 09-05-2006 |
quote: That does not say that they are not his people any longer. Yes some are grafted back in, they enter the Church and are no longer Jews, but God still has plans for His people, the house of Israel, not spiritual Israel as many claim we are. Oh how I wish you had quoted through Ezekiel 36, 37 and 38? So to answer the “controversy” why replacement theology is bogus. And what does Matthew have to do with this? The Jews don’t say Lord, Lord, this is more in response to groups like the Mormons or JW’s which claim Jesus is someone else. The Jews current reject the idea of Jesus being Lord God, but if you read Ezekiel this does change.
[This message has been edited by Faith_Warrior (edited April 07, 2007).] |
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BrentLatham Member Posts: 27 From: England Registered: 03-29-2007 |
Having read all the posts I think the thread has been a good one although it has gone slightly deeper than anticipated but that is what happens when you throw a question to a bunch of Christians placed around the world Sam said that randomness is a thing that humans came up with...I'm happy with that. Random does exist because humans can't throw dice the same way each time and humans do not know the future so there is never any way of guessing what the outcome of the dice will be or where the rock will land if thrown! Interestingly though if you are going to get biblical about this you can go to Jonah which is the best report on the casting of dice because we know the beginning of the story and we know the end. In that story we can definitely see that dice was used to good effect for finding out who the offending member of the party was. So can dice be used to finding out what God wants us to do - yes but I wouldn't encourage it though! ------------------ |
ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
*points to sig and walks away* ------------------ |
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Lazarus Member Posts: 1668 From: USA Registered: 06-06-2006 |
And what does that mean, Arch?  |
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TallBill Member Posts: 298 From: St. Louis, MO Registered: 11-22-2002 |
Just a proactive note: Earlier in the thread I posted a link to a quick and rough Chiasm Chart. That link (which has since been corrected) was a bad link. I offer my apologies for any inconvenience that might have resulted. The link in this post is tested and correct. ------------------ "...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High." |
I do believe in predestination but more in the case for the house of Israel and not so much with the Church. Through Christ everyone has an opportunity to turn to Him, not just those God chooses to and certainly not randomly.