well, to be honest, I got bored and stopped reading around the second paragraph.

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Soterion Studios

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

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"Before Abraham was... I Am." - Jesus Christ

3rd Day Studios

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"Before Abraham was... I Am." - Jesus Christ

3rd Day Studios

quote:

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How so? It raised some pretty reasonable questions.

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Not really. I'll give you a hint: "Straw man"

It's mostly an attack on Islam, and seeing as I'm not Muslim, it really has no impact on my beliefs.

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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[This message has been edited by CobraA1 (edited December 29, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by CobraA1 (edited December 29, 2004).]

This is almost a perfect example of "knowing just enough to be dangerous".

"If God is omnipotent, and knows the future, how come he created us in a way which would become sinful, and how come he punishes us for doing what he knew we would do when he designed us?"

This is a valid question, if you believe standard reformed, calvinist, etc, theology.

And the only answer I have been given is

"God is God. We are humans. He is in charge, we aint. Now shut up, and obey the rules like a good boy."

in a slightly wordier format, and including the relavent scriptures to support this. (The book of "Job" being the main source, particually the last chapter. Also the last part of Ecclesiasties.)

This basicly boils down to what I call "Theistic Nilhilism". I'll try and write an article about it soonish. ( God willing ).

Anyway.

God bless,

Dan

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7 days without prayer makes one weak.

"God is God. We are humans. He is in charge, we aint. Now shut up, and obey the rules like a good boy."

I guess as soon as people start asking questions about their surroundings, religion goes on the defence. Yay for the 'freethinkers'...

quote:

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The theory of evolution works without having to believe in magical powers...

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not really. you still have to believe a helluva lot of unproven stuff, have faith in what you have no proof of. Evolution only works if you believe in a lot of hacks and very once-off random chances all happening. Lets not argue it out though. It has been done so many times. There is no conclusive proof one way or another on evo, creation, or any of the rest of that. If you believe evolution is sound, OK. Me shouting at you is not going to convice you otherwise, and vice versa.

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It's not really an 'attack', it just puts common sense to use.

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Not quite. There are a lot of digs and attacks in there. Some of them quite vicious. All of them written in such a way as to make it seem harmless on the surface. Not that that matters. Many see Farenheit 9/11 as a blatent attack on G.W.Bush. Others say it is merely common sense. I say it is a mixture of both, with three table-spoons of sarcasm mixed in, and sprinkled with pleas for emotion, but not too much, as that spoils the flavour. As is this.

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I guess as soon as people start asking questions about their surroundings, religion goes on the defence.

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Not just religion. Any (supposed) authority. But yes, "religion" does.

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Yay for the 'freethinkers'...

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Why? In an athiestic worldview, what you think means nothing. There is no such thing as meaning. If you believe what your religion teaches, and are happy, Yay for you. If you are happy dis-agreeing with everyone, Yay for you too. And likewise for all positions in between, and otherwise.

This is why I cannot accept athiesm. Although there are those who claim meaning and useful lives in athiesm, if you get right down to it, why bother? Why not just get high on drugs, and jump off a cliff? It doesn't matter. You are only a random collection of cells that came togeather through chance and accident. What happens, happens, and who cares? You will stop existing in 60 or so years anyway.

Anyway. Sorry for being attacking, if I have been.

Dan "Just ignore me" MadProf

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7 days without prayer makes one weak.

you said

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Hard to argue with common sense.

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well, common sense would suggest that time is not maniputable, that it is constant.
common sense would suggest that an object cannot become infinetly small.
infinity is contrary to the nature of common sense, for one.

common sense is pretty much just the stuff we know off hand, learned by our daily experiences. helpful in the sense of keeping you from running into traffic, but not very great when dealing with new or different subjects.

Newton went against common sense when talking about gravity.
Copernicus went against common sense when talking about orbits.
Einstien went against common sense when talking about spacetime.
the list goes on.

k, done with my rant toward common sense. as you can tell, I don't care for it very much.

quote:

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Yay for the 'freethinkers'...

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all personality, thoughts, memories, etc are caused by experiences with the environment, and their reactions to it. Things do not come out of nowhere.
you, as your physcial self, are a product of your environment. any thoughts your have, any decisions you made are a result of past experiences, and biological functions.
if you were merely talking about society; just because you don't think the same way everybody else does, does not mean you are free from their influence. either that, or you're a hermit.
but you're online, so I guess not.

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Soterion Studios

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Everything is covered from start to present... what part is a straw man?

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The last 2/3 has almost nothing to do with what I believe. I'm not Islamic - I don't believe the Qur'an ("Kran" in his essay), so I mostly skimmed and skipped the last part, because it didn't have anything to do with me.

Now, if you can pull out a good question from the essay that has something to do with Christianity, I'm more than willing to discuss it.

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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Alright, I was just promoting atheism, I wasn't cheering it on, after all, 'good' and 'evil' are merely human opinions. ^_^ Neutrality ruuules. Your "jump off a cliff" idea is quite true, but above being good or evil, it's curiosity that keeps me going. And however much I'd like to deny it, I'm still bound by my stupid human emotions, and wouldn't be able to bare never having another Reese Cup, that peanut buttery goodness just keeps me alive. And no, you weren't attacking, you raised some very good points.

'Common sense' was an unclear choice of words I guess. I meant that 'About Bob' was simple and truthful.

What I'm assuming that the author of 'About Bob' means by a freethinker is someone who questions their surroundings and won't take the easy answer of 'GOD DID IT, AND WE DON'T NEED PROOF!'.

"The last 2/3 has almost nothing to do with what I believe." That's because everything is covered, not just Christianity. I already said that.

Hmm, a good question about Christianity... Well, I liked the part where if Bob is supposedly all-powerful, he could destroy evil whenever he wanted to. But since he hasn't, that means he is either A) Not nice or B) Not all that powerful.

"'Circumstantial evidence is a very tricky thing,' answered Holmes thoughtfully; 'it may seem to point very straight to one thing, but if you shift your point of view a little, you may find it pointing in an equally uncompromising manner to something entirely different' . . . 'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact.'" --Sherlock Holmes, "The Boscombe Valley Mystery"

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I meant that 'About Bob' was simple and truthful.

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Like this?

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who did the same, until there were millions of their offspring on the planet, none of whom were really related, of course. That would be incest after all.

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Where in the Bible does it say there was no incest, and that they were not related? Where is the "truthful" part of that statement?

If we all came from the same two people, there must've been quite a lot of incest going on between Adam and Eve's children.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

quote:

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If we all came from the same two people, there must've been quite a lot of incest going on between Adam and Eve's children.

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God didn't create laws against incest until around Moses' time.

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He could give us freedom to do what we want (what does this have to do with Bob (God) getting rid of evil?)

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If he got rid or evil, then he would be forcing us to be good. He would be getting rid of a freedom.

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
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"Freethinking is a wonderful thing if you have the freedom to act on your own thoughts."
Very true, but don't we all have the freedom to act on our thoughts? Cecco d'Ascoli acted freely on his thoughts by suggesting that there could be people living on the other side of the world. He died in 1327 when the Church held a special barbecue in his honor.

That aside, anyhow. If we could do nothing but choose good, there would be no purpose in anything. If every football team could do nothing but win, would anyone watch football? The freedom of choice is a beautiful thing. It gives us enough control to love God with all our hearts and souls. Otherwise we would be "robots" programmed to love.

I'm sorry, but I still don't understand what you mean, or are trying to say....

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

Let's say Joe the Terrorist has tied bombs to himself and is lurking outside a daycare.
"Hmm, I'm having second thoughts. Better consider my options."
A) *devil pops up on his shoulder* "BLOW UP THE CHILDREN!!"
B) *angel waltzes up* "Dude, what the hell are you thinking?"

God: "That little rascal is certainly capable of some evil! Since I love my creations so much and want the best for 'em, I'm going to remove that less-than-desirable character trait of 'murderous intent'!"

Now, assuming that the children in the daycare don't grow up to become even deadlier terrorists (although God could remedy that), things are arguably better, even though Joe's brain had to recieve a nudge in the right direction.

We all know that God doesn't do that - otherwise there would be no murder. This takes me back to the original question, from 'About Bob'.
Evil exists because God doesn't want to remove it.
Evil exists because God can't remove it.

If you bought a new dog and brought it home to meet your other dog, and a fight broke out, would you let them tear each other to pieces because that was their choice, or would you try to break it up, and teach them to become friends - despite their first impressions of each other?

A straw-man argument is an argument which misrepresents the beliefs of the opposition so that they are easier to defeat in argument. Like if your boxing but you don't want to face the real guy so you make a scarecrow out of straw (straw-man) put the real guys mask on it, then beat up on the straw.. great but you havn't faced up to the real guy, and havn't really proved anything except that you either are intellectually dishonest, or you simply have no understanding of your oppositions view point.
This website was a strawman because it took a few basic facts out of the christian (or muslim) view point such as, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient God, who created Adam and Eve, and gave them rules which they failed to obey and then punnished them. These are very basic approximations of what christian doctrine actually teaches.. BUT, the article then proceeds to ignore or remove all of the multitude of connecting ideas and thoughts which tie those beliefs together and explain them and give them context.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

Like, "Hey, maybe I shouldn't be dissing and questioning the all powerful God and saying that he can not take care of Evil." You seem to be missing that line. The first one is right on. God does not get rid of evil by choice! That's what we have been saying! Give it a couple years maturing and some prayer, let God take care of the rest.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

quote:

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k, done with my rant toward common sense. as you can tell, I don't care for it very much.

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Well... obviously you don't care for it, there seems to be a massive lacking of it from you.

First off I must post the main question. How many of you read, and finished that? First two guys said they gave up. Then others started bashing the article. Of course the first two paragraphs are **** all. But actually read it! It sums of the major points of religion in the views of a some-what smart person. Don't just immediately throw away its views just because its against your beliefs.

Too many of you people are blinded by your 'faith' and anything against it is seen as bull-**** , no matter how much proof supporting it. If you don't agree then its wrong. Flip to a random page in your pocket bible and rant **** that means piss all to me/cheese (I'm guessing) and say something like "See! God pwns you" in a less retarded sentence. Usually filled with large lettered words in an attempt to confuse us.

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The Stank pwns you!

I read the whole thing, I was simply making a point.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

"Give it a couple years maturing and some prayer, let God take care of the rest."
Yeah, he takes care of business by wiping out like a hundred thousand people with tsunamis. And I don't need to mature to believe in God - it's not like I'll hit a certain age and suddenly have this weird urge to stop questioning anything that goes against the word of an old book.

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The Stank pwns you!

quote:

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Originally posted by CheeseStorm:

"Give it a couple years maturing and some prayer, let God take care of the rest."
Yeah, he takes care of business by wiping out like a hundred thousand people with tsunamis.

---

--D-SIPL

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If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that suggests you tried

I see, you are simply questioning why God would allow such a thing to happen. It all falls under what we've been talking about, if God made it easy there would be no point and our lives would be meaningless. I'm not saying he is a cruel tyrant. Did your parents pick you up and baby you EVERY time you fell? My parents let me learn and grow. They supported me, loved me, and helped me when I could not help myself. Hmmm, kinda like God.. our Father.

Of course reaching an age won't make you believe anything, other than the fact that you do age. Comprehension in human minds grows and is able to understand more complicated things, and we gain insight and knowledge through our experiances over the years.

Here's an age old question. Do YOU know where you're going when you die?

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

If the above assumptions are correct, how is it that someone who does not acknowledge a God can blame God for something that God did or did not do - let alone attribute or assign thoughts and deeds to such a God?

If the above assumptions are incorrect, what exactly do you believe?

In reading your comments, here and in other places on this site, I cannot help but comprehend mixed messages regarding your beliefs. Could you please clarify this for me?

Thanks and Happy New Year!

Back on topic: It's interesting how atheists always attempt to place culpability on God instead of humanity.

I apologize Capn and Cheese if I've been rude. I hope that you can recieve the help or guidance that you are searching for. You can ask any of us for help, and I'm sure we'd do everything in our power to help you. I think we should all stop sounding so pointed, myself included, and try to keep it civil.

Anyways, the topic at hand.
I have a friend who is an athiest, and before he became "Athiest" his father made him read the whole bible. See, his mom is Christian his dad not. He seldome wants to talk about it, and I guess he doesn't believe in anything. It's saddening that I might not see him in heaven because he chose not to belive.

Isn't it frustrating when people choose not to believe even given te circumstances of Heaven and Hell?

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

Neither of us believe in God, but to point out flaws in your religion, we must point out flaws in the fictional characters devised by the various dudes who wrote the Bible.

As for believing what our parents have told us - how do you think religion is passed on from generation to generation? At least our beliefs can change as new discoveries are made - despite religion's attempts to prove them wrong. Seriously, what can anybody possibly have against the dinosaurs?

Placing culpability on God and not humanity? Well yeah! It's obvious that there must be a loving God watching over us when he makes earthquakes and tsunamis kill so many people. Oh right - it's a test! I love what we can learn from God - that he can kill us all at any time! What a sense of humor on that guy.

Here's something that bugs me about the 'circumstances of Heaven and Hell'. The people who teach about those places have never seen them. They get their information from an ancient book, which seems to be used mainly for giving society a set of rules to follow. You have no idea if Heaven/Hell exist, what they would look like, how to get there, etc, beyond what you've been told by others who have no clearer idea themselves.

You said that as new discoveries are made, your beliefs are changed. Doesn't that mean that what you believed was wrong so you changed them?
Ours have been the same for thousands of years. Something must be right.

First of all, God doesn't do any of the evils on the world. None, zip zilch, nada. He simply allows them. You don't seem to be getting the point that a perfect world is pointless! Where is what you believe in? Or do you even? If you don't, then how do you live each day?

And as for your smart alecky answer to where are you going...
I'll be watching your body decompose from Heaven, standing right next to Jesus in the glories of heaven. I'll be sure to wave at you.

If you have no religion of your own, don't go pointing out what you think are flaws in other religions. If its lasted this long, something is going right.

"You have no idea if Heaven/Hell exist, what they would look like, how to get there, etc, beyond what you've been told by others who have no clearer idea themselves."
You mean, like you? I must say that I believe my head is clearer than yours. I am not filled with anger at anyone. You seem to harbor resentment and you've found someone to blame. God. Well suck it up and deal with it, cus you can't pin all your problems on God.

God would never kill us withouy purpose, I can only think of one example where he has, and I'm not ever sure on it. It's called the Devil, Satan, Lucifer who is killing people.

Anything else Cheesy?

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

quote:

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Originally posted by Max:
If you have no religion of your own, don't go pointing out what you think are flaws in other religions. If its lasted this long, something is going right.

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Not a good argument. Not to mention, atheism IS a religion since it requires faith against the evidence.

[This message has been edited by Gump (edited December 30, 2004).]

This 'perfect world' you speak of sounds a lot like Heaven. And just because something is perfect doesn't make it pointless. God is perfect. And even in a perfect world, there would still be inventions to be designed, crazy contraptions to be built, books to be read, games to be played - and no criminals to interrupt you!

Standing right next to Jesus (you'll have to beat the lineup) and waving smugly, eh? I'm sorry if I sounded 'smart alecky', but since I'm made of organic material, I will decompose when I die.

Truthfully, I don't blame God because I don't believe he exists. I blame religion for stirring up a lot of trouble (creates differences between people = hate crimes and war). Masses of people devoting their entire lives to the unproven existence of a God/gods. Why? So they won't fear death. So society has rules to follow. So they can answer their questions about the universe that they don't understand. Sounds good, until there is more than one religion (again, here we are at 'About Bob'). Suddenly there is a competition between the religions, but here's what makes no sense to me (then again I'm told my head is unclear): They all claim to be right and all have no evidence to back up that opinion.

Instead of jumping to conclusions ("GOD DID IT!") we should just accept that there are things we currently do not understand about the universe.

"If its lasted this long, something is going right."
It doesn't matter how many people say something is right - it doesn't make it so. A lot of people believed for a long time that the world was flat, and they probably said what you just did.

quote:

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Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
The theory of evolution works without having to believe in magical powers...

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quote:

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Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
Instead of jumping to conclusions ("GOD DID IT!") we should just accept that there are things we currently do not understand about the universe.

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Okay. So how about this for starters.

You say that the theory of evolution works without having to believe in magical powers. Great. I'm just curious where you draw the line between "things we currently do not understand" and things that we *can't* understand without supernatural acts (you called them "magical" powers).

Just to clarify, there *is* a difference between things we do not yet understand and things that we cannot understand. An example of something that we do not yet understand is something like stem cells and how they relate to the regeneration of the human body (we understand in part, but not fully).

However, something that we cannot understand is where everything came from. The universe has not "always existed". It has been shown time and again that an eternal universe is unstable. The universe had a beginning. Whether a person is a "big-bang" theorist or an "ex nihilo" theorist (7-day creationist), there is *still a beginning*. Even if one is an atheistic evolutionist, where does it come from? Creation requires that the principles of thermodynamics to be ignored on a *vast* scale, not just in one or two instances, but in a consistent and orderly fashion.

Once we've determined that there *is* a creator, the next step is to figure out who that creator is. But we're just establishing the need for a creative force at first.

That's what the start of my faith is really built on -- that's the start of why I believe what I believe. I'm looking forward to talking to you about this more in the future.

Respectfully,
clint

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http://www.includingjudas.com/christiangame.html

quote:

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Truthfully, I don't blame God because I don't believe he exists.

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The existance or non-existance of God cannot be proven/disproven. Your belief is based on faith.

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I blame religion for stirring up a lot of trouble (creates differences between people = hate crimes and war).

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A blame that is in my opinion baseless. Where is the proof that religion causes hate crimes and war?

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Masses of people devoting their entire lives to the unproven existence of a God/gods. Why? So they won't fear death.

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Do you have proof of this theory?

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They all claim to be right and all have no evidence to back up that opinion.

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I suggest you head over to Tektonics and the Christian Thinktank if you wish to investigate the basis for Christianity and why we believe in it. I also suggest you spend some time and read the book that is the basis for our beliefs - the Bible itself.

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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quote:

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Considering their previous comments it's rather obvious they believe exactly what their parents have ingrained into them.

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Quite the opposite, although I don't know my mother's standing on religion and faith my dad is quite religius. Actually I'd say almost to the state of many of you. But he doesn't go all fanatic on that **** . Probably knows a hell of a lot more than you do, and I listen to his understandings of it and whatnot so no, my parents did not put these thoughts into my head they are of my own.

Max: Keep things civil? I believe this is quite civil, no blood has been spilled over these debates which is still quite civil, but then again, what kind of a conversation would this be without two different perspectives on the situation?

Find the guidance we're searching for? If we were looking for guidance would we be cutting down your views here? I think not. I'm happy with my views and way of life. I don't have to think whether or not my decisions are going to be judged against me for the rest of eternity.

One last point to make... one main reason religion has survived for the time it has is because people are too afriad to change it. *Thinks back to the whole medieval revolution **** in History 10*. People still believe in a God because they fear that if they don't they'll burn.

Sorry if I missed some **** to whine about but I fell behind on the topic since I had to go to work and that's quite the essay to catch up on.

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The Stank pwns you!

By the way, made any progress on answering my previous question? I am anxious to understand your full perspective.

quote:

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One last point to make... one main reason religion has survived for the time it has is because people are too afriad to change it. *Thinks back to the whole medieval revolution **** in History 10*. People still believe in a God because they fear that if they don't they'll burn.

---

Do you have proof of this theory? Or are you just speculating?

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - hoping to get more done over the holidays . . .

------------------
* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

Cobra:
- Jihad? Crusades? Inquisition?
- The fear of death is eased by the belief of a nice after-life.
- No website can make any religion's opinions more valid than any others. No evidence = equal opinions.

Nfektious:
- Freethinking... Going against the accepted norm, thinking for yourself. Looking for answers while others say "Shut up and accept it."
- Common sense... An illusion? A bunch of life lessons put together? The more I think about it, the more my opinion changes.
- Sorry, didn't see your question... my beliefs are:
1. Blob formed - expands into bubble and shrinks back to blob.
2. Forces inside bubble are different each time... many universes may have existed before ours, without life forming.
3. Stars and planets form.
4. Gases + heated water + energy (electricity or radiation) forms organic molecules.
5. Cells form and evolve.
6. Dinosaurs wiped out... meteor = dust = no sun?
7. Humans evolve from simpler organisms and begin using tools.
8. Humans become obsolete once tools have been sufficiently improved.
9. Superhuman intelligence explores and understands the bubble, even preventing or escaping another fatal Big Bang.

Is this theory complete? No - we don't know everything! Once we accept this, we can stop stamping everything with "GOD DID IT!" to make up for our lack of knowledge.

quote:

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Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
Clint:
- We don't know everything, but we may someday. I don't think there is anything off-limits or out of bounds, but a lot of mysteries get stamped with "GOD DID IT!" anyway.

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Do you ever feel like people in "your circle" do that also though? I feel like I'm talking with people and instead of talking intelligently they just say "CHANCE DID IT!" and leave it at that.

Also...

quote:

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1. Blob formed - expands into bubble and shrinks back to blob.

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quote:

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2. Forces inside bubble are different each time... many universes may have existed before ours, without life forming.

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--clint

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited December 31, 2004).]

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- Jihad? Crusades? Inquisition?

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Sure religion is involved in some cases, yes, but there are also many peaceful religions, and many cases where the people are actually disobeying a religion's teachings - just because religion is involved doesn't automatically mean people get dangerous. Also, there have been many non-religious wars fought as well - power struggles, struggles for land and riches, even genocide (based on the idea of a superior species - wonder where that comes from?) and communism.

No, if religions were all wiped, I seriously doubt we'd be any more peaceful.

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- The fear of death is eased by the belief of a nice after-life.

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I asked for a proof, not a re-iteration of your point .

quote:

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- No website can make any religion's opinions more valid than any others. No evidence = equal opinions.

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Did you even bother to look at them? Nah, you'd just spout off as if you were omnicient. Glenn Miller is well versed in the historical documents of the time, as is J.P. Holding. Both have taken a deep look at the time period and found the historical documents of the time support the historical accuracy of the Bible, lending it credibility.

And what do you say of the remains of Biblical cities? "No evidence"?

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- We don't know everything, but we may someday.

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Define "everything" - could we, for example, know the exact position, exact speed, and exact properties of every particle at every moment in time? I'd say no.

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many universes may have existed before ours, without life forming.

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While you accuse us of saying "GOD DID IT!", you go around saying "IT HAPPENED, I JUST KNOW IT!"

I'd love to see any proof that other universes exist!

------------------
"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - hoping to get more done over the holidays . . .

------------------
* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

Cobra:
- More religions = more wars, less religions = less wars. More peace.
- I'm sure Miller and Holding know a lot about the Bible and cities of biblical times. This isn't evidence, though - all religions still have equally valid opinions. I can't say I've ever read the Quran, but if it mentioned a city that really did exist, would that count as evidence that Islam is the 'right one'?
- By 'knowing everything' I mean solving all the unknowns.
- I'd also love to see proof of other universes, but I'd be just as happy if it was proven that ours was the only one.

P.S. The Quran thing was just an example of a religious book other than the Bible. It could be a cookbook for all I know.

quote:

---

Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
Clint:
- When it comes to a scientific answer, your guess is as good as mine.
- Yeah, I'm still split between Big Crunch/Chill/Split. I just like the Big Crunch cause it seems so neat and tidy, but it doesn't make too much sense. Damned dark matter! Or is that dark energy... meh. Both?
- More religions = more wars, less religions = less wars. More peace.

---

1. I soundly reject any nihilistic philosophies that say "everything is equally valid".
2. Dark Matter is assumed to compromise over 90% of all matter in the universe. To put it simply, cosmologist's mathematical models don't work at a galactic scale so they assume another unseen type of matter must exist in order to make up the difference. I believe I made a post somewhere on here related to the possible candidates for dark matter (look up WIMP or "Weakly Interacting Massive Particle"). Another more likely candidate is a modification of basic Newtonian physics (F=ma+ka2).
3. I'm guessing you're ignoring the untold hundreds of millions of people killed by atheists this past century. Though I guess your statement fits since atheism is a religion and we don't consider our beliefs to be a "religion" (instead a relationship with God).

quote:

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- More religions = more wars, less religions = less wars. More peace.

---

That's a nice assertion, but can you back it up?

quote:

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- I'm sure Miller and Holding know a lot about the Bible and cities of biblical times. This isn't evidence, though - all religions still have equally valid opinions. I can't say I've ever read the Quran, but if it mentioned a city that really did exist, would that count as evidence that Islam is the 'right one'?

---

Cities is only one example, Miller especially has read a lot of the historical documents also, as well as books discussing the issues. He has also spent a great deal of time thinking about the more difficult Christian philisophical issues. Glenn Miller does in fact address the issue of different religions.
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/tqdecide.html

quote:

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- By 'knowing everything' I mean solving all the unknowns.

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You heard of a man named Kurt Gödel, and his incompleteness theorems?
http://www.faragher.freeserve.co.uk/godeldef2.htm

quote:

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- I'd also love to see proof of other universes, but I'd be just as happy if it was proven that ours was the only one.

---

My point was that your beliefs about our universe are no better than ours, because they are based on faith.

------------------
"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - hoping to get more done over the holidays . . .

[This message has been edited by CobraA1 (edited December 31, 2004).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
Clint:
- When it comes to a scientific answer, your guess is as good as mine.
- Yeah, I'm still split between Big Crunch/Chill/Split. I just like the Big Crunch cause it seems so neat and tidy, but it doesn't make too much sense. Damned dark matter! Or is that dark energy... meh. Both?

---

Yeah, the ever-repeating Bang/Crunch thing is pretty nice and tidy. I'm not sure, but I was under the impression it just wasn't adopted by many astrophysicists nowadays?

But regardless of whether or not there is an infinite number of universes or not, don't we have to ask where *it* all came from?

Let's ignore the dark matter/energy question right now, and just talk about things on a more general sense.

Even if one holds to what you are saying, and there really *are* an infinite number of universes (so that the chance model could in theory work), then don't we have to be impressed with this mechanism to create all of these universes? There are some beautiful laws of physics, everything just really *fits* really nicely. It's like walking in the woods and coming upon a well-wound ticking gold pocketwatch. How did it get there?
We've got a well-wound ticking beautiful universe. How did it get there?

I'm not talking about the mechanism that a Creator would use to set things in motion (I want to talk before that), I'm talking about _if there was a Creator at all_.

Thanks for your discussion! I look forward to your reply.

Respectfully,
clint

------------------
http://www.includingjudas.com/christiangame.html

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited December 31, 2004).]

Gump:
- I think all opinions are equal until one is proven correct.
- I thought there was like dark matter 'hot spots' that could be pushing things apart, making a Big Crunch seem less likely.
- Yeah, atheists kill lots of people too, but for reasons other than their beliefs. I'm also not saying that religious people kill others purely based on their beliefs. But their have been holy wars for quite some time.

Nfektious:
- I'm talking about spiritual religions where it's accepted that GOD DID IT (and we don't need to know how because it's under God's control).
- Otherwise, everybody's religious because yes our beliefs are based on unproven things.

Cobra:
- I don't see how you can argue with LESS WARS = MORE PEACE. More religions make more differences between people, more differences make more wars.
- Miller can read every historical document in the world but I still don't see how that would lead to evidence that God exists. Especially since the documents would be written by people who had no better idea themselves.
- "My point was that your beliefs about our universe are no better than ours" Exactly! No evidence on either side = equal opinions. My opinion is that we should look for answers before listening to an old book that says GOD DID IT.

Clint:
- It does seem like the more we learn, the less likely a Big Crunch will happen.
- Yes, we do have to ask where it all came from. Unless your answer is GOD DID IT. We (or our successors ) will need some pretty nifty technology. The answer will be quite interesting indeed.

The only good discussion is one that goes nowhere.

[This message has been edited by CheeseStorm (edited December 31, 2004).]

quote:

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Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
The only good discussion is one that goes nowhere.

---

Sadly, such discussions are usually one-sided. I'm not one trying to change your beliefs, and don't really care to argue about them; they are your beliefs and you have your reasons for holding to them. That is your right, and is equally the right of everyone else here. Not one person here can cause you to understand something you admittedly refuse to accept.
If you think Christianity is a religion where people don't ask questions and search for answers, you clearly know very little about Christianity. If you think God is someone who expects people to not ask questions or search for answers, you also know very little about the Christian view of God.
While you are painstakingly trying to dismantle Christianity, you should add Judaism to your list because Judaism is the precursor to Christianity after all. Along with Christianity and Judaism, you had better include Satanism (Luciferian or otherwise, take your pick) - because that is the antithesis to both Judaism and Christianity. And I cannot forget Islam. Islam began about the same time as Judaism, and since they are closely tied together at their root you had better add that one. Wow, looks like you have quite the task for the New Year. Don't forget to explore your beliefs, too, while doing all that work; it would be a shame to destroy what so many people believe only to have nothing for yourself.
Believe it or not, I sincerely wish you the best. I don't understand why you spend so much of your time at this site, since it has nothing of benefit to you. Certainly you could do better things with the time you spend here, unless of course you really have nothing better to do - in which case you have my pity. Anyway, cheers to you in the New Year.

Quite the 'task' for New Year? (BTW, Happy New Yeeeear!) This isn't a task or a chore! It's entertainment!

I arrived here as a result of a Google search... although I can't remember what I had searched for, game making and religious debates drew me in, and here I am. Ironically, Zimmer_Kole, CapnStank and I had all been recently banned from another forum, which was dedicated to Samus Aran (from the Metroid games). It is amazing how fiercely they defended their stupid video game character from playful insults - and I'm astonished at how civil you guys keep it in comparison. The Samus Forum admin even edited our messages to include some rather nasty messages, but their crappy grammar made it obvious as to where the original message ended. Oh yeah, kudos to everyone here who actually uses grammar/spelling.

I'm getting dial-up and the computer in my room will be cut from the internet entirely (current ISP is too unreliable), but I'll try to still stop in here from time to time.

Hehehe, of course it's one-sided - it's just me, with special guest appearances from CapnStank and Zimmer_Kole, vs. the combined might of... everyone else!

Soooooo in summary... Let's all just keep believing in whatever we want, because it's all fair game when no one has evidence. Something that we can all agree on (except those depressed Satanists) is that the future will be very interesting! Thanks for the debates!!

[This message has been edited by CheeseStorm (edited January 01, 2005).]

quote:

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I don't see how you can argue with LESS WARS = MORE PEACE.

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I didn't argue that.

quote:

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More religions make more differences between people

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Interesting. However, there are plenty of differences to use even without religion.

quote:

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more differences make more wars.

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How?

quote:

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Miller can read every historical document in the world but I still don't see how that would lead to evidence that God exists.

---

Did you care to read his material? If not, I see not point in discussing his material if you're too close-minded to listen to another person's point of view.

quote:

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No evidence on either side = equal opinions.

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One opinion is correct, the other is not. Just because we don't know which one is correct does not make them equal.

quote:

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My opinion is that we should look for answers before listening to an old book that says GOD DID IT.

---

And my opinon is that we should look for answers before listening to people who say IT JUST HAPPENED THAT WAY, BECAUSE WE SAID SO!

------------------
"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - hoping to get more done over the holidays . . .

John 20:29
Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

Wow, isn't that great!
This is after meeting the diciples and Jesus is talking to "doubting" Thomas.

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Very comforting. By now, you realize my post is about belief and faith. Carry on Christian soldiers.

Cheese-
Hearing about your past experience in other forums does not incline me to think very much of your opinions in general.
Apparantly your purpose here, like with Samus, is to insult people and what they stand for to your fullest until you get banned. I hope you do not get banned to spite you.

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaked you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, that you may be able to endure it.

Fellow Christians, steel yourself against people such as these who would try to steer you away from God trying to use word tricks and stirring up things that are explained in the bible. Even so, it is comforting to know that God will not tempt us past what we as Christians can handle.

Also, be careful which religions you are labels as warring religions. It is the cause of war in Ireland, and also Islam hates Christianity, yes. Go talk to the Islamic people, we aren't strapping bombs to ourselfs or shooting anyone in cold blood.

Christians are warned against temptation, and I think because of the teachings the majority of Christians are not blood thirsty people.
Also, we as Christians are taught to "Turn the other cheek"

Matthew 5:38-42 The law of non-resistance
"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth', but I say to you, do not resist him who is evil, but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn him the other also. And if anyone wants to sue you, and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. And whoever shall force you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you."

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

Religions seperate the mass majority of the people when one group of people believes one thing and another begins to believe another they argue over the true belief. Often one group decides that the others are wrong and must pay for their sins against the other group's religion... war etc. etc.

Yes, that is very vague and mostly bull-shiat, but it paints a simple picture for you to see.

Now to answer another one of your questions:
I believe that we decide our own lives, not fate. I don't care how it all began I care for the moment. I don't plan too far into the future and I could really care less about the past. I don't believe that there is an almighty being watching over us. No, that doesn't show any proof over anything, but I'm not trying to, so stop asking your retarded questions.

Post all the gibber-jabber you want about my post I probably will not read it because by the time I return there will probably be another 5 pages to read and I don't really have the time for it. I usually only post here in support of mah friend Cheese and since his ISP is a dipshit (I once had it too) he wont be around as often.

The main reason we got banned is because of Zimmer_kole. Most of his posts were stuff like "Dude, didn't you realize that Samus works nights on the corner of main and 6th. She's had 6 babies and they live in those massive shoulders of hers" then we all get banned because we didn't post "PRAISE SAMUS THE FICTIONAL GOD OF VIDEOGAMES!" and get our posts edited to "omg liek i liek boyz nd stufz lolz!"

You can see that our posts here are civil, which really don't break any of the rules of your forums unless one of them is "You must believe in God or perish".

E-mail me at gblanshard@sasktel.net if you ever want my attention. These arguements are for fun and games anyway... no use getting stressed over something so stupid.

------------------
The Stank pwns you!

------------------
* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

quote:

---

Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
- It does seem like the more we learn, the less likely a Big Crunch will happen.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
- Yes, we do have to ask where it all came from. Unless your answer is GOD DID IT. We (or our successors ) will need some pretty nifty technology. The answer will be quite interesting indeed.

---

This isn't tough stuff, this is just basic thermodynamics and causality.

Respectfully,
clint

------------------
http://www.includingjudas.com/christiangame.html

I can't make my argument any more simpler than that. If you want me to back up my kindergarten logic of "less wars = more peace", read the first line of this post.

Me - "More religions make more differences between people"
Cobra - "Interesting. However, there are plenty of differences to use even without religion."

No s***, Sherlock. That's why I said MORE differences. Again, it's like the simplest of statements just blow your mind.

Me - "more differences make more wars."
Cobra - "How?"

LMFAO. Racism is a good example. Or invading another country for land. I'm sorry, does your planet have world peace already? Differences scare people. Scared people hate what scares them.

Also: NO HISTORICAL DOCUMENT ON EARTH WILL ACT AS EVIDENCE THAT GOD EXISTS! (Hmm, am I repeating myself? [sarcasm]) Wow, look, the location of a city from biblical times. Hey, is that where some Saint got buried? WOW, GOD MUST BE REAL!

"One opinion is correct, the other is not. Just because we don't know which one is correct does not make them equal."

Until we know which one is correct, both opinions are equal. I could say that God has three heads and you would not be able to disprove it, and I would not be able to prove it, until we saw God.

"And my opinon is that we should look for answers before listening to people who say IT JUST HAPPENED THAT WAY, BECAUSE WE SAID SO!"

LMFAO (again!). Hey, that's my opinion too. Scientists admit that they don't know how the universe started. It's religion that says "IT JUST HAPPENED THAT WAY, BECAUSE WE SAID SO!" So, thanks for the backup. I guess we can agree on something.

Thanks, Max. I also hope I don't get banned. Well... I could care less either way. I won't be on the internet much in a few days.

Even the Buddhists are warring against the Hindus somewhere. Christianity has had some dark hours, too. I don't have to be too careful doing... well, as you put it: "which religions you are labels". rofl

Stank, you forgot the part where Samus is a "f***ing sensual message therapist on Friday nights!"

Seriously, the longer this goes on, the funnier it gets. Soon I will have to simplify my arguments into flash cards with colored shapes, so that no one gets confused by text.

"Do you mean to imply that you are my strategic equal?"
"No..."
"Have you forgotten that I beat both Gary Kasparov AND Deep Blue, with nothing more than a row of pawns, and a single bishop?"
"No, like, like, I know."
"I will forgive the insult!"

more people = more wars
more weapons = more wars
more dictators = more wars
more racist people = more wars
more people who love a god and believe in peace = more war? NOT
It's not like a relgion says, "hey, lets go start a war, after all it takes one of us to start one."

Wars start because people believe different things or have different opinions. Doesn't mean it is spiritual. The crusades and the jihad crap are the only examples really, and the crusades were misguided people. There is Ireland, but I don't think its over religion anymore. Its just a mess.

To test your theory, I started twenty more religions with twenty other friends. So far, no more wars have broken out! Wow, more religion and not more war? How amazing!

I AM argueing it. I want you to use specific evidence that says that there is a positive correlation between war and religions. You know what that is right? If you make a chart I want to know where your information came from and who you sampled, how you sampled, and an estimation or your biased reports.

------------------
* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

the grand outcome of this discussion is:

(drumroll)

Don't believe anything!

Belief causes differences, cos not everyone believes the same things, and differences cause hate, and hate causes wars.

So people, from now on, no one should ever teach their kids how to talk, because they will teach them different pronunciation and different languages to other people around the world.

No one should ever look at anything again, because in their looking, their own perception of something is made, and as no-one percieves anything the same as anyone else, we have differences when we look at things!

No one should ever meet another human, as there are *ALWAYS* differeneces.
Shape, Size, Colour, Language, Body Language, etc.

We should only ever comunicate through the internet, as all those differences are equalised.

But in fact, we should not even do that, as everyone understands what everyone else communicates differntly (this discussion proves that).

Basically,

we should all die. That would solve all differences, and so stop all wars.

WE'VE DONE IT PEOPLE!!! WE'VE SOLVED THE PROBLEM OF WORLD PEACE!!!!!

Dan "Don't take me seriously, please." MadProf

PS - No insult intended Cheesy, in case it sounded that way. I respect your opinions, and views completely. I disagree in places, but I respect them, and you. Peace, bro. :-)

------------------
7 days without prayer makes one weak.

However darwin, social darwinism, atheism has produced many more wars, deaths and human sufferings in just a few hundred years compared to all those put together in the name of 'christianity'.? Darwin himself forsaw and was worried about the natural outworkings of embracing his theories.. thye Nazi's philisopy, though with some occult and mismash of whatever in was based on darwinism and social darwinism, that there were inferior (lesser evolved races) and of course the super race, germans, most evolved race of all, and look at the consequences, also deaths due to communism and other such outworkings of atheistic and evolutionary worldviews, not to mention the millions upon millions of children aborted , and all these things are the natural outworking of the ahtiestic and evolutionary worldview, when in contrast, 'christian' wars etc (terrible and evil as they are), don't have the right to be labeled 'christian' even though so called claiming christians are doing them, because they go in stark contrast to the essense of Christianity itself.

------------------
Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

However darwin, social darwinism, atheism has produced many more wars, deaths and human sufferings in just a few hundred years compared to all those put together in the name of 'christianity'.? Darwin himself forsaw and was worried about the natural outworkings of embracing his theories.. thye Nazi's philisopy, though with some occult and mismash of whatever in was based on darwinism and social darwinism, that there were inferior (lesser evolved races) and of course the super race, germans, most evolved race of all, and look at the consequences, also deaths due to communism and other such outworkings of atheistic and evolutionary worldviews, not to mention the millions upon millions of children aborted , and all these things are the natural outworking of the ahtiestic and evolutionary worldview, when in contrast, 'christian' wars etc (terrible and evil as they are), don't have the right to be labeled 'christian' even though so called claiming christians are doing them, because they go in stark contrast to the essense of Christianity itself.

------------------
Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

Does religion cause all wars? NO.
Does religion cause some wars? YES.
Honestly, I hate pasting links unless they are funny or unusual. But since you wanted some information, dig in. I haven't actually used these links for my argument, I just Googled them right now.

None taken, madprof. We should only believe things that are proven. I believe that we don't know everything, and that we cannot possibly know if there is or is not a God. However, some people get violent over their beliefs as they feel threatened by strangers with other beliefs (maybe they're just being led by an insane pope - but the war would still exist because of religion!). I don't know of any wars caused by different languages or looking at objects/shapes/sizes. Offensive body language could cause problems. Cool ideas though.

The Nazis probably just wanted the world to themselves. They probably tried justifying this by saying they were the only good race - but I don't think 'The Origin of Species' led to World War II. Aborted fetuses Vs. a loveless childhood under parents who don't want you... hm. It's harsh either way.

It is cheap to say that true Christianity causes wars - it's usually the fault of corrupt higher-ups (same with a lot of non-religious wars... damn governments!). Still, wars like the Crusades would not have existed were it not for religion.

Yep, all differences will be gone if we merge with the machines and eventually combine our minds into a huge entity and then turn all the unthinking matter of the universe into more additions to our huge brain mahahahahaha... then we realize that we are God... a singular entity with all the power in the universe... oooh, deep.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

------------------
* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

quote:

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I can't make my argument any more simpler than that.

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I wasn't expecting a simpler argument. I was expecting a more thorough one. I was expecting sources, statistics, anything.

quote:

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No s***, Sherlock. That's why I said MORE differences. Again, it's like the simplest of statements just blow your mind.

---

I should've paid more attention earlier. Your point is "differences = war". It has nothing to do with religion, except that you just wanted to pick on religion. So I ask you - do differences always equate to war? Is it possible for differences to also equate to peace? Do you have proof that differences always equate to war?

quote:

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NO HISTORICAL DOCUMENT ON EARTH WILL ACT AS EVIDENCE THAT GOD EXISTS!

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Well, geez, I can say something similar too, in all caps!

NO HISTORICAL DOCUMENT ON EARTH WILL ACT AS EVIDENCE THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST!

quote:

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Until we know which one is correct, both opinions are equal.

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Are you implying that ? I prefer .

quote:

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Scientists admit that they don't know how the universe started.

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Some anyways. Did you know some religious people admit they can't prove/disprove God's existence?

quote:

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It's religion that says "IT JUST HAPPENED THAT WAY, BECAUSE WE SAID SO!"

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No, it's just fanatics that don't bother to read 1 Thessalonians 5:21. If you think all christians do is to follow "because we said so" arguments, you must be shallower than I thought.

quote:

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Seriously, the longer this goes on, the funnier it gets. Soon I will have to simplify my arguments into flash cards with colored shapes, so that no one gets confused by text.

---

If you start doing that, I'll have to write my arguments enrirely in formal and predicate logic so you don't misread me.

------------------
"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - hoping to get more done over the holidays . . .

quote:

---

It is cheap to say that true Christianity causes wars - it's usually the fault of corrupt higher-ups

---

OK, I can agree with that .

------------------
"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - hoping to get more done over the holidays . . .

Biblical proof of religion causing war and death. If I see any sort of "NEAW I WANT SUM NUMBAS I AM TOO FRICKEN SLOW TO UNDERSTAND SIMPLE LOGIC!"

As you can see I'm slowly slipping into the state where I care less about decent arguments and stoop to the level of those I argue with. You need a series of slaps including: sexual, verbal, physical, emotional, spiritual, virtual, optical, and subliminal. Might fit something through your skull. Its obvious to see that stupidity angers me.

Hmmm I started this post with the intension to put more valid outlooks to the situation but I'm mind fucked, cheap root-beer has dropped my intelligence temporarily.

Quick question, I don't know the actual statistics but what is the ratio of athiests vs. religious people (any religion big or small) I have a hard time grasping the fact that athiests are to blame for as many wars as you people say.

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The Stank pwns you!

------------------
* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

Whoa, get with the times, again. Some differences don't equate to war.
"I say it's a square!"
"I say it's a diamond on its side!"
*Swords are drawn.*

But religion, especially when led by insane rulers, is a big difference that can have big consequences. For like the millionth time, proof that differences can lead to violence would be any number of hate crimes, racism, etc. If you ask for reliable sources confirming that racism exists, I'll go postal. Or laugh.

The difference between our historical documents is that you seem to believe that they prove God's existence. Obviously there aren't any disproving God, either - anyone who said that would probably be burned at the stake. A paper written by humans saying 'God is real!' is not evidence. A paper saying 'God isn't real!' is not evidence either. Equal opinions.

Seeing as I'm in Grade 11, I've never seen an equation like that before, even though I'm taking Grade 12 math. Guess I'll get back to you on that in a few years, eh?

"Did you know some religious people admit they can't prove/disprove God's existence?"
Such honesty is strangely rare. Most of them just wave historical documents in your face and claim that its credible evidence.

"If you think all christians do is to follow "because we said so" arguments, you must be shallower than I thought."
Well, you're just following stuff that other people said, unless you invented Christianity and wrote the Bible or whatever. And if you think all atheists do is follow said arguments, well same to you.

A comic strip entitled "Harmless Differences And How Idiots Observe And Act Negatively Upon Them"
"Raargh, I don't trust you blue-faces. You look weird."
./|\ (Secretly, he fears them, or just wants their wallet.)
./\

"Aaagh, it's a racist!"
/|\
./\

*stab*
/|\<===[]/||
./\_______/\

It's no flash card, but it'll do.

[This message has been edited by CheeseStorm (edited January 01, 2005).]

Hmm seems I screwed up the censor on my post. I generally tend to think that most people don't get offended by *'s. Sorry about that but I got carried away.

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The Stank pwns you!

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

quote:

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Ok here's a page for you to wrap your head around Cobra

---

If you had bothered to read the authors I recommended to CheeseStorm, you would already know my answer. Start with "Questions about the character of God" on this page: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/hway.html

-God himself specifically gave the commands to engage in war, etc. Wars waged without God's permission generally failed.

-It is generally recognized that these wars were punishments for extreme cruelty and violence. The wars were not arbitrary.

-Innocents were generally given a way out.

-Deutoronomy chapter 20 gives some rules of war, including:
--Exceptions for those who don't want to go to war (5-8)
--Always offer peace (10-12)
--Kill only the men, spare the women and children (13-14)
---There are some exceptions, but only the cities specifically specified by God. (16-18)
--Do not destroy nature, except as neccessary to build siege weapons (19-20)

In general, God was very restrictive of war. War was waged against people who were evil, not against those who had done nothing wrong.

quote:

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Biblical proof of religion causing war and death.

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You are confusing religion with God. Must I explain to your simpleton mind that religion is a set of beliefs, while God is a supreme being? They are not the same thing.

quote:

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Its obvious to see that stupidity angers me.

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Quit acting stupid then.

quote:

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Quick question, I don't know the actual statistics but what is the ratio of athiests vs. religious people (any religion big or small) I have a hard time grasping the fact that athiests are to blame for as many wars as you people say.

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It only takes one atheist dictator to start a war.

CheeseStorm:

quote:

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And I still find it weird that "less wars = more peace" needs sources and statistics.

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That is NOT what I asked for sources and statistics for!

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A paper written by humans saying 'God is real!' is not evidence. A paper saying 'God isn't real!' is not evidence either. Equal opinions.

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However, only one can be true. That's the point I was trying to make with the formal logic equations.

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Seeing as I'm in Grade 11, I've never seen an equation like that before, even though I'm taking Grade 12 math. Guess I'll get back to you on that in a few years, eh?

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They're formal logic equations. I have taken classes in both formal logic and critical thinking. You sorta insulted me when you kept thinking I wasn't following you (I am following you fine, BTW), and teased about flash cards and stuff.

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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[This message has been edited by CobraA1 (edited January 01, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by CobraA1 (edited January 01, 2005).]

Being angry isn't being stupid. There's a difference, now you want me to pull your dumbass manouver and post links to prove this? I think not.

Max:
It's spelled young'un first off. And sure, I'm not legally an adult, but just because I quote Simpsons doesn't make me a kid.

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The Stank pwns you!

How many popes does it take to start a war? HMMMM.

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People would not do the things that God tells them unless they believe in him, and therefore follow his teachings and religion.

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So? God made it quite clear that going to war without good reasons is a bad thing.

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Being angry isn't being stupid. There's a difference, now you want me to pull your dumbass manouver and post links to prove this? I think not.

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http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sarcasm

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Until we know which opinion is right, they're both equal.
"Innocent until proven guilty."

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Equal in the fact that we can't prove using science, yes. Equal in correctness, no.

"Innocent until proven guilty" is a court principle to ensure that innocent people do not get punished for a crime they didn't commit. It's not a debating technique, and we are not in a court .

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

Of course, I would like you to read up some more before attempting to come to a final decision. An open mind is not afraid of reading. I'm quite surprised at your insistence to keep saying "forget it" to other people's opinions. I daresay you still do not understand our beliefs and our reasons, and you never will until you read our material, especially the Bible.

And FYI, science is not what you should be looking at, if you know science has little to say about it. Science itself is very limiting, and does not actually explain all that we experience.

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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[This message has been edited by CobraA1 (edited January 02, 2005).]

If I'm the one telling others to "forget it", why are you telling me to forget about science?

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We must solve the little problems before the big ones. Gotta get all the jigsaw pieces and then solve the puzzle.

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Sometimes you have to look at the puzzle to find where the piece goes.

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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The pieces are required before the puzzle can be solved.

http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/apologetics/comparisons/realmurd.htm

Hmm, the puzzle idea is interesting - but what does the puzzle stand for, and what does a piece stand for?

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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I wish you success in anything you choose though.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

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The Stank pwns you!

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

And on CapnStank's link about wars sponsored by God, it gets pretty obvious that they were just using God as an excuse for their atrocities "Yeah, he said he's cool with it if we slaughter the children along with their parents".

I'd say that the finished puzzle would be (what I think is the biggest mystery) where the first universe came from. The individual pieces would be smaller discoveries.

The puzzle is NOT about happiness and content, it is about solving mysteries. Happiness and contentment are human emotions created by our brains. I am already quite content with the beliefs I follow.

"You are still searching, whether you will admit it or not."
Yup, remember when I said "We don't know everything and we must accept that." So yes, I admit that I'm searching for answers... aren't we all?

Daaaaayum, Graaaaayum, I missed you by like twenty minutes or something.

*edits like a noob*
I forgot to add: Wars caused by atheists are quite the same as wars caused by religious people... in either case, idiots are to blame (see Max's comment on Page 1). However, twisted religious messages (they may have started off good but got warped by the idiots) make more useful excuses than scientific discoveries.

What I'm trying to say is that while a war may have started because some tard says "God said I should kill you all!", you don't see any wars starting because some other tard says "I believe the universe was created as a result of an explainable process and I will kill you all for not thinking likewise!"

So maybe their beliefs are used to justify acting upon their personal desires ("I wish I had that dude's farmland... God says I can have it!") Atheists probably start wars for the same reasons, but they don't have a religious excuse to make it sound like it's their duty. On the other hand, sometimes religious beliefs are to blame from the start, like with those Muslim fanatics.

[This message has been edited by CheeseStorm (edited January 02, 2005).]

The puzzle can be anything you want it to be, simply because it is a symbol. Neither of us can say what it is. What's your beef anyway?

It is obvious, as Cobra stated, that you have no clue on Christianity and no clue on God. You are blaming a religion for the acts of people, of humans. It is a misguided attack. Plus, nothing you say will affect God, so for as much as you insult and say he's not there and what not, like he gives a rat's patoot what you say.

It's all foolish nonsense. Go somewhere else if this is all you're gonna do.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

See, this puzzle thing is my idea. It represents my ideas. I don't tell you what your Crucifix represents.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

[This message has been edited by bennythebear (edited January 03, 2005).]

quote:

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Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
Even if they were disobeying the religion, they would still be using it as an excuse. As long as it exists, there will be idiots who use it as an excuse to do evil.

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so we should completely do away with something good because a few people use it for wrong? knives, guns, computer, gas, just about anything should be done away with then. as for the link that blames God for killing people...if you're using that as proof you're going to have to admit there is a God, and that His word(the holy bible) is true .personally i believe war is wrong now(since Christ came). that is war against flesh and blood. our war is suppose to be spiritual, against wickedness in high places. also everytime Jesus mentions war it's from the outside looking in, as in the Christians aren't taking part in it. He's also the one who said "those who live by the sword, die by the sword" if i'm not mistaken. not a lot of other Christians will agree with me on that one. also note i did not say all soldiers are doomed for hell, i just don't see how it can be ok if you truely believe everything wrote in the new testament. the end of time(judgement) is when God's wrathful side will be shown. as for our(united states) judicial system, innocent people are put away sometimes, and guilty people set free. i may be american by my first birth, but my second birth(when i was "born again") made me a citizen of new jeruselam and a joint-heir of it with Christ. it also made me a jew(bloodline, not religion) by adoption. i'll pray for this country, as i will all others, i'll die to save souls in this country and to keep other people from harm, but i will not steal, kill, or break any other commandment and claim for it to be more rightous than when the other countries kill our "innocent bystanders". anywho, hope that came out right. God bless to my siblings in Christ, and God's mercy to all(cause even the Christians need it, after all, that's what made us and keeps us Christians )

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proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

[This message has been edited by bennythebear (edited January 03, 2005).]

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Dude did you catch my drift when i said **** links?! Stop posting **** that's a waste of time to read because this is basically a conversation used to pass the time am I correct?

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No, you are not correct.

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We both know that the chances of changing the other's mind is 1 : 1,000,000.

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If you are unwilling to change your mind, you are wasting your own time pretending to argue with us.

I am not wasting my time with others, though: I have helped people who have struggled with the faith.

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The problem with posting that is that it is a waste of 5-10 minutes to read something that really means dick all. Put your own opinion into the matter instead of other people's

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If you had even glanced at Glenn Miller's stuff, you'd know he writes pages and pages (and pages and pages . . .). Am I going to repeat all that in a single forum post? No way.

OK, I've given the issue some thought:

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Each religion will have some people who twist its messages as an excuse to go to war. Although the war will have been started by someone who has lost the original (probably peaceful) message of their religion, the war wouldn't have happened at all if not for religion.

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How do you know they won't fight for another reason? After all, are not most wars, including "religious" wars, about power? Won't they still fight for power even if the religion is gone?

And in any case, can not religions foster peace also? Have you thought of the possibility that sometimes more religion can mean more peace also? Are not the people of the U.S. living together mostly peacefully? Even with the diversity of the U.S., it seems that more religion does not always mean more war.

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And on CapnStank's link about wars sponsored by God, . . .

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Which I responded to by:
a. Referring to Glenn Miller's material.
b. Posting some points of my own.

I believe I have adequately covered it.

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I'd say that the finished puzzle would be (what I think is the biggest mystery) where the first universe came from. The individual pieces would be smaller discoveries.

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I'd say you're probably never going to finish that puzzle . . .

quote:

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Even if they were disobeying the religion, they would still be using it as an excuse. As long as it exists, there will be idiots who use it as an excuse to do evil.

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Evil will exist regardless of religion. I do not believe it will go away simply by removing religion.

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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[This message has been edited by CobraA1 (edited January 03, 2005).]

quote:

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Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
What I'm trying to say is that while a war may have started because some tard says "God said I should kill you all!", you don't see any wars starting because some other tard says "I believe the universe was created as a result of an explainable process and I will kill you all for not thinking likewise!"

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This paragraph alone has convinced me that you have a great deal of historical research to do before you can even begin to enter these type of discussions.

Never mind revisionist history, another grave cause for alarm is that people are just plain forgetting. First of all, let’s clear up the distortion that eugenics was a distortion of Darwin’s theories. The subtitle of Dawin's book was "the preservation of favoured races in the struggle for life". What does “favoured races” mean when speaking of the human race? In later editions of his book, Darwin moved from the term “natural selection” to Herbert Spencer’s phrase “survival of the fittest.” The Victorian British were caught up in the myth of progress, and many, including Darwin and his friends, held racist beliefs, some of them radical. The success of their empire surely proved they were the fittest, did it not? The “father of eugenics” was Darwin’s own cousin, Francis Galton. Ernst Haeckl took the core beliefs of survival of the fittest and eugenics to Germany, where they were taking hold before Hitler came to power. Hitler merely lifted constraints on trends that were already established by Darwinists and took their beliefs to their logical end.

Other possible research topics:
1) Nazi propaganda
2) North Korea (just uttering the word "God" in that country can get you killed)
3) China
- Just this last year (as of May 27) a directive was issued by the Central Committee saying to the effect that those who doubt evolution will be arrested (look up the Chinese government's document entitled "Notice on Further Strengthening Marxist Atheism Research, Propaganda and Education"). There are already reports of many arrests and killings in connection to this directive.
3) Russia under Stalin
4) Eugenics

Oh, and after the recent US presidential election I was surprised at the number of political commentators saying that "religious people should be taken out into the street and shot". Another was quoted as saying "the Enlightment has ended". No, that's not a gross overstatement. What was especially shocking was that these journalists weren't net bloggers but articles printed in actual newspapers and magazines.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

I personally don't think GWB is a good president, or the right man for the job. As I am not American, or over 18, my opinion means nothing, however. But I do think that IF someone else believes something, they should act upon it. To not act upon your beliefs sort of implies lack of integrity, doesn't it?

MWS may be wrong about GWB. He may have been wrong to tell others to vote for him. But if he believed it was right to do so, why does it make you sick? Sad, yes, I can understand that. But why sick?

Dan

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7 days without prayer makes one weak.

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I dont like siggys. They are to hard to think up :(

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

I've been reading different books from the Bible, but now I'm going from the start. Why does God react so weirdly to the Tower of Babel?

"And the Lord said, Behold the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do; and now nothing will be restrained from them which they have imagined to do."

Everyone's united, one language, cooperating, accomplish anything they put their minds to... I don't get what the big deal is. Can anyone clear this up?

[This message has been edited by CheeseStorm (edited January 03, 2005).]

Also, the tower probably had some symbolism: People might've also been placing themselves on a pedestal, thinking themselves perhaps as higher than God.

In any case, they were probably using a lot of resources in the tower - a lot of resources that might've been useful elsewhere. Again, stagnation might've become a problem.

Also, I'm under the impression that God wanted people all over the earth (go forth and multiply), not in one place.

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

quote:

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I'm surprised you knew about that.

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Well, he did say he was going to try to read the Bible a bit.

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

I STRONGLY disagree. Anytime there are any rules imposed on humans there are those who will break them. Social training gives us the ability to cope with such outbreaks of mutiny. I believe the problem is inside each of us. Count the fingers pointing back at you when you point one to blame someone. The point is, we are all screwed up from the start. Even if you dont believe that it started with Eve & Adam getting kicked out of heaven you have to admit one fact (!) : you dont have to teach a child to steal, but you have to teach him to share. No? We are naturally 'evil'. When i didnt believe God i clang to most of what you are saying very tightly, then i said: "God i need your help..." and i KNOW that there's a God. But proving it is like trying to explain why you love someone. Sure it's probably something to do with the fact that the sight of a loved one triggers chemicals in your brain (i think serotonin) yet science still has found no purpose for crying... anyways, God bless you brotha' hope you find right answers.

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Halleluja!!!

quote:

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Also: NO HISTORICAL DOCUMENT ON EARTH WILL ACT AS EVIDENCE THAT GOD EXISTS! (Hmm, am I repeating myself? [sarcasm]) Wow, look, the location of a city from biblical times. Hey, is that where some Saint got buried? WOW, GOD MUST BE REAL!

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Hi all, interesting arguments. Ok here goes:

Ok so you don't want historical documents. Well thats fine with me, because I don't really care for historical documents ether. So lets look at the medical side of things. A lot of the rules, and standards that God set down in the bible were to keep humans healthy. Now thousands of years later we are finding out scientifically that these things do keep you healthy and why, and seeing that the bible had already dealt with the problem. So you can ether say the bible was inspired by a superior being (God) or that those "fakers" who wrote the bible knew an awful lot more about health than we know/knew.

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Jeff McArthur. Creating Nak'Urij
BlueGill Studios Games

First off, outcast, can you hit me up with some of those examples of "keeping healthy" from so long ago? I'm not quite up to date on the documents mostly discussed here. Like I said, I'm just kinda here to give a different perspective on the subject (mostly pointless) and support for Cheese. A lot of stuff I realize is known for some time but people don't accept it until a trusted group or something announces it officially. Mostly with health too. Here's a cheap, vague example:

Everyone has been getting hooked on losing pounds by dropping the carbs. Its pretty much a fact that cutting carbs alone doesn't make you lose weight, you gotta exercise too to burn them off. The problem is, is that most people don't know that because they don't see it in bold lettering, they just see "POP THIS PILL LOSE THOSE POUNDS!". Fat people get fat because they eat the calories of a athletic person but don't get out and do something about them.

Most people don't know that because there isn't as many infomercials and adds saying "YOU GOTTA JOG TOO" as there is saying "MORE PILL = LESS TIRE!"

Omg that got long and drawn out. My main point was that you don't need an official document or announcement to know that something is good for you. But then again, if that doesn't relate to the things you speak of I'm just rambling.

I had more to say before I got all chatty... If I think of it I'll edit and add.
"LOOK MAH NO SWEARS!"

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The Stank pwns you!

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

In the middle ages the Jews were often viewed with suspicion in villages where disease had broken out and the only people not sick were the Jews. The reason for this was that they followed the commands for cleanliness.

Looking back with 20/20 hindsight afforded by modern medical knowledge of the bacterial world it's obvious that these commands were like a father telling a child "not to cross the street". The child may not understand the reasons at the time but obediance will keep the child safe.

Though, outcast might have been thinking of other examples.

"after touching a dead body you are unclean, and should remain quarenteened for a week." (Numbers 19:11)

"don't eat carniverous birds, such as vultures, they are unclean" (leviticus 11:13-19)

"don't eat those insects which are parasites, and feed on dead bodies, excretement, and so on, they are unclean" (leviticus 11:20)

those are some of the obvious ones, off the top of my head. There are more, if you want to look them up. Many of the things seem over-cautous to us now, and many of them are mixed up in bits of religious law too, I believe the reason for this is so that they would take it seriously. If you tell a kid "wash your hands if you've been playing out in the mud, because you might have got harmful bacteria on them which might get transferred to your mouth when you eat.", they are unlikely to listen to you, but if you say "You must wash before eating, because that is one of the rules of this household.", then they are more likely to, I believe. YMMV, of course. You are not lying to them, you are putting it into a way they can understand, and will listen to.

Anyway, Hope this is useful,

God bless,

Dan

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7 days without prayer makes one weak.

Did a quick google search: http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blantisceptics.htm

Would have saved me time just to post the link. It tells the full story better. Oh, well.

God met their challenge.

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Even if they were disobeying the religion, they would still be using it as an excuse. As long as it exists, there will be idiots who use it as an excuse to do evil.

You don't seem to realise that these idiots would use ANYTHING to start war! U could remove religion totally and then they would use say... racism or cruelty, or poverty. It doesn't matter whether religion exists or not. They will find some reason to go to war.

I just think it's odd that God would be offended by a building. It's not like our skyscrapers are ever going to reach the after-life. And we were all working together so nicely.

War would still exist without religion. Just, not as much. Religious persecution is just as pointless as racism. But take the Israel Vs. Islamic thing for an example... those fanatics actually believe that they will be rewarded by killing their enemies along with themselves.

quote:

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I just think it's odd that God would be offended by a building. It's not like our skyscrapers are ever going to reach the after-life. And we were all working together so nicely.

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If it were just the building, he'd be after us for our skyscrapers, I'm sure. No, you're just missing the point . . .

quote:

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War would still exist without religion. Just, not as much.

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I'm not so convinced of that.

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

Some people use their beliefs as an excuse to do evil, some people's beliefs tell them to do evil, some people's beliefs give them an excuse to set up donations and fundraisers (Good job, Christians!). Some "holy wars" are just started by an evil figurehead with lots of followers, but other holy wars are truly based on differing beliefs, Islam style (although an evil figurehead still helps to mess things up). So, some wars are caused by religion.

As for wars caused by Christianity in particular, they were just nasty popes and company, and not real Christians. From my view as an outsider looking in on all the religions, Christianity really is one of the better ones.

P.S.
Still reading your Bible, slowly. I love the part where Joseph is in jail...
Butler: "So what's my dream mean?"
Joseph: "You get your job back, and you bail me outta here!"
Baker: "Cool, I had pretty much the same dream! What does mine mean?"
Joseph: "You die. Birds will feast on your corpse."
Baker: "Oh... damn."
Joseph: "PWND ROFLOLOLOLOL"

I just thought it was funny how that minor character lasted like a page before dying, poor fella. I can't remember what he did to get killed, piss off the Pharoah or something?

The baker and the butler both did something to annoy the Pharoah. Not sure what myself though, I'd need to re-read it.

I don't think it was the tower God was angry at, but their intentions to make themselves great. People build towers today to use them, not to glorify themselves.
----------

I'm not certain of the truthfulness of this, but one guy in reference to the Titanic said "Not even God could sink this ship", well we all know the outcome of that...

quote:

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Well, I just think it's silly that God would get so worked up over a big tower that would somehow reach into the after-life. With modern tools we could probably make a much taller tower and I bet nothing would happen (well nothing supernatural).

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What part of the first point of Max's last post did you not understand?

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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Could also be the fault of religion, promising rewards for killing people, but that's just Islam nowadays, as far as I know. And I'm sure most Muslims are really excellent people, but seriously, how many other religions have caused violence like that?

It's not like they would've gotten to Heaven, so what's the harm in making a tower? In fact, there's nothing they could've done to get there. I think whoever wrote that part of the Bible was just looking for a lame excuse to explain all the different languages if everyone supposedly came from the same place. The Bible is full of good rules and stuff, it's just the fairy-tale crap like this that ruins it for me.

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proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

" It's not like they would've gotten to Heaven, so what's the harm in making a tower? In fact, there's nothing they could've done to get there. I think whoever wrote that part of the Bible was just looking for a lame excuse to explain all the different languages if everyone supposedly came from the same place. The Bible is full of good rules and stuff, it's just the fairy-tale crap like this that ruins it for me. "

Hmmm, I don't think that it is near as big a fairy tale as thinking that the whole universe came to be by a gigantic explosion that magically put everything together in the right order. Seems like a bigger stretch to me. See, that's the fairy tale crap that ruins all those non-creation theories for me.

Everything comes from something, right? So isn't it logical to assume that it was all created by someone/something? Just a thought

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

My view on the universe, as I said already, and as I was asked already, multiple times, is that we don't know everything, and we have to accept it, instead of making up fairy-tales to explain the 'magic'. It doesn't make sense for something to come from nothing, but then again we can't even imagine nothing, but yeah, we're gonna need some better brains. At least I admit that I don't know - ask a Christian where God came from and it's all 'Oh time doesn't apply to him' or 'He made himself'.

Ditch the fairy-tales! Accept our lack of knowledge! We will learn more things without relying on magical explanations!

Second, you avoid the question every time you are asked. we don't know everything, DUH! We never will! We all know that already.

As for asking a Christian about the beginning, God did not create himself, he has always been and will always be. It's pretty simple to me.

The reason we can accept God, is because we believe in him. We all have a lack of knowledge, and we accept it. It is impossible to know everything. I sincerely believe that the "magical explanation" otherwise known as God, has made my life better, and given me a reason to live my life.

On a very serious note, Cheese, I want to thank you for every post you have made. You have helped to solidify my faith in my God.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

on "religious wars" There have been very very very few wars in history that were truly begun or motivated by religious feeling or ideas. Many wars have had religious significance and important results for religion. Religion has been used by leaders who wanted war to motivate people to fight.
Right off hand there are only two examples that come to mind of wars in which religion could reasonably be argued to be the primary motivation. First and formost is the muslim conquest in which they conquered persia, palestine, most of anatolia and eventually north africa and into spain. The motivation of this, ORIGINALY was primarily to advance the glory of Islam. Over time, as with everything else in human politics, power and wealth eventually became the real objective.
The second is the crusades, HOWEVER, this is not as straightforward as one might think at first. There were a number of motivating factors behind the declaration of the first crusade. The Byzantines called for help militarily simply because their empire was on the rocks and needed help. The pope, at first saw this primarily as a means of extending his control over the eastern church and ending the schizm. He figured if he gave them the help they needed he could use that to bargain them back into the fold as it were. Another major motivation for the pope was that it would end the constant internal warfare in europe by focusing the war lust of european nobles somewhere else.
Many of the people who went on crusade were motivated by genuine religious feeling.. however, most of the real armies that went were led by men who were primarily interested in gaining wealth and power in the fabled east which was full of Gold and new lands. So there is a strong case that the crusades were really ultimately about politics, not religion.. but it could be seen the other way as well.

However, those aside, and the conquest of canaan which is hard to speak of historicaly except from the biblical record, out of the hundreds of wars, actually thousands of wars, I can't think of any that are primarily religious. People are often confused by the fact that different factions in a war identify themselves by their religion (like protestants vs. catholics in northern ireland), but the truth of the matter is that the people involved are not fighting for religious motivation, they are fighting for politics, for power, for wealth. Religion just happens to be the most convenient cloak or title to give oneself.

On the question of the existance of God... I can understand that many christians might give you dumb answers when you ask, "where did God come from" because most people really havn't thought much about it.
However, The answer to the question of where did God come from, is in a sense, nowhere.. he has always been. He is what is refered to as a "necessary being" what that means is that He is existance.. it is not possible for Him not to exist. He simply is, He has never not been.
There has been a great deal of discussion of this down through time, as you might imagine.. going back all the way to Plato.. from Plato on down to Thomas Acquinas there have been many philosophers who have argued that God is existence itself.. or rather that existence is part of God's nature.
Thomas Acquinas argues, for example, that everything we see around us, everything we experience physicaly is what is called a 'contingent being'. Contingent means that it depends on something else.. something caused it to come into being.. and eventually something will cause it to cease to be. All contingent beings must have a cause that came before them which brought them into being. Acquinas argued that since everything we see is contingent (was caused by something before it) that the universe itself must be contingent, ie it must have been caused by something before it. He argued that a chain of causes can not go on infinitely, eventually no matter how far back you go, there must be a first cause.. that first cause is logicaly then a necessary being.. something that exists necessarily. Existence is part of its very nature.

Of course as you might imagine other philosophers who don't particularly want to believe in God didn't care for this thus they countered the argument. The counter argument was that you can't impute the properties of a group of individuals to the group itself.. In other words they said just because every individual entity in the universe is contingent.. doesn't mean that the universe itself is contingent. So in essence they argue that the universe itself is the necessary being. There have been notable scientists who have tried to prove this view, including Steven Hawking, however, all the observational evidence indicates that the Universe had a beginning (big bang cosmology), and thus must be contingent and not necessary. If that is the case then Acquinas' argument works and God does exist.

Recently atheist scientists have been at pains to try and prove either one of two propostions.. either the universe has always existed, or the universe could have come into existence by itself, out of nothing by no external cause.. ie the universe caused itself to come into existance. Unfortunately for them all scientific laws and known evidence point against both possabilities.

In the end what you are left with is the option.. do you want to believe in eternaly existant God.. eternaly existant matter, or do you want to believe that things can pop into existence randomly for no reason.

That is simply looking at the question from a purely logical stand point.. there is even more evidence for the necessity of God's existence when you begin to look at social, political, and moral factors of humanity's existence.
I have no difficulty whatsoever, as an honest, and very cautious about what I support, person, saying that the perponderance of evidence, logicaly, and philosophicaly favors heavily the proposition that God must exist.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

"Many of the people who went on crusade were motivated by genuine religious feeling"
Yeah, the feeling of "I can't wait to kill these strangers!"

"However, The answer to the question of where did God come from, is in a sense, nowhere.. he has always been. He is what is refered to as a "necessary being" what that means is that He is existance.. it is not possible for Him not to exist. He simply is, He has never not been."
I just find it funny that you talk about God as if he personally sent you his biography.

I don't believe that God or the universe is eternal. We really can't imagine nothingness, or eternity/infinity. I currently believe that there was a beginning and there may be an end - but as discoveries are made, I'll happily accept the cold hard truth. I am not comfortable with slapping the good ole GOD DID IT on anything we don't understand. But for now, it all boils down to the fact that God is no better an alternative to believing in any other creation theories, because none of them have any proof. I'd say it'd even be pushing it to say that any of them even have evidence. I'm interested in hearing more about humanity's "social, political, and moral factors" that you say provide evidence for God's existence.

quote:

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I can only simplify this crap so much

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Perhaps I should try to simplify myself as well?

They were egotistical and proud
They wasted resources on a useless tower that God knew wasn't going to work
They put themselves above God
If God didn't do something, they'd leave him and end up destroying themselves

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I dare say Religion, especially Christianity, can be a stabilizing force also, and even cause peace. Take a good read of "The History of the Church from Christ to Constantine" by Eusebius. Things were in turmoil in the years of the early Christian Church. Christians were highly persecuted, and it wasn't until a Christian leader took over that things got better.

Christians are also very charitable: Some of the largest and oldest relief organizations are Christian or have Christian roots.

I can see that talking about this stuff is probably going to go nowhere. You don't really care if the Bible is true or not - you're just convinced it isn't, and will make up stories of your own just to convince yourself it isn't true. You're not really listening to us, and I doubt you're going to. We've given several possible alternate explanations, but no, you're not going to listen to us, you just want to explain things in your own little way.

We already know you think it's a fairy tale. Tell us something we don't know.

quote:

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I currently believe that there was a beginning and there may be an end

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So - if there was a beginning, what caused it to begin?

quote:

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But for now, it all boils down to the fact that God is no better an alternative to believing in any other creation theories, because none of them have any proof.

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You're going to have to look elsewhere besides "proof", because I can tell you now, there's never going to be the kind of proof you want, not even for the "scientific" creation theories.

Although I do find it interesting that Isaiah 53 makes startling predictions about Jesus, including his death, despite being created long before the events took place.

You know what? If you're going to read the Bible, you could at least put your feelings about it aside first, read it all the way through, and draw conclusions about it when you undertand what it's all about. The Bible isn't meant to be a loose collection of stories - there's underlying threads and themes that you're missing if you just read only small sections of it.

"We approached the case, you remember, with an absolutely blank mind, which is always an advantage. We had formed no theories. We were simply there to observe and to draw inferences from our observations." --Sherlock Holmes, "The Adventure of The Cardboard Box"

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." --Sherlock Holmes, "A Scandal in Bohemia"

"Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil." -- 1 Thessalonians 5:21, NIV

"The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him" -- Proverbs 18:17, NIV

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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I already said Christianity is one of the better religions, especially with all the charities and stuff, but then again, you don't have to be a Christian to donate. Most sensible and kind people will do so without any religious stuff involved. But yes, kudos to Christianity on setting up plenty of fundraisers.

"I can tell you now, there's never going to be the kind of proof you want, not even for the "scientific" creation theories"
Hmm, and yet you speak with the authority of having your own proof... exactly what makes it impossible to find it?

I've only read Genesis and Exodus recently, and Revelations ("old dude on drugs") and Matthew a long time ago. Good morals and rules and stuff, that make me think most of the stories were written to help keep society structured and whatnot (like how children's stories have a lesson). So that's good. But damn, the fairy-tale stuff ruins it. According to you guys, God isn't affected by time, he is the Alpha and the Omega, and so wouldn't he know that like the people of Noah's time would become corrupted? I mean, he's already in the future, he is the future, but nope, I guess they just existed for the sole purpose of being destroyed. Then again, I really prefer this Old Testament God, he's like a grumpy old man, and when the **** hits the fan, it's time to crack down on the sinners, hardcore style.

And yeah, the people chose to do evil, but God already knew that they would make that choice, and that he would have to kill them all, eh, nothing like starting from scratch when your Grand Design goes to **** .

"The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him" -- Proverbs 18:17, NIV
Hehe, like the Church convincing everyone the world was the center of the universe. But yes, nice quote.

Poor plots, good morals, that's pretty much the gist of it from an outsider's opinion.

Hmm, concluding with quotes seems to be the style, I think this one is Winnie the Pooh talking: "There's a first time for everything, Piglet." Well that's about as accurate as I can remember it.

*edit*
Whoa, but then he already knew his plan would go to **** , so maybe he should've engineered things a little differently, we have a choice but he knows what we'll choose, so he already knows how he's going to kill us, yowzas.

[This message has been edited by CheeseStorm (edited January 16, 2005).]

There is no fairy tale stuff in the Bible, enough said on that.

I don't think we will ever comprehend a lot of things, and by the time I get to Heaven I really won't care!

God gave us one thing that he can not control, free will. The quote from Bruce Almighty "How can you make someone love you without affecting free will?" We can make choices, like how you choose to disbelieve, he gave you the ability to make that choice.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

God knew all of this but he gave us free will. and free will means we can chose to love or hate (love/hate GoD, and other ppl)

But you should know we weren't the only intelligent creations of his. He made other, heaven;y, creatures. Angels as we have come to call them. And one of them tried to surpass God (hmm, much like the tower of Babel...) and was stricken down to the earth. Anyways, im just saying, there's more to God's plan than anyone can imagine, you may be wasting your time, this could be a deadend. i know it sounds like another "god did, stop asking questions" answer but that's not exactly what i mean. i mean that our human minds may be too limited to grasp the full context and understand the complexity of the web of God's plan. btw i dont really get why God let all of those people perish, but at least now we (christians) dont have to sacrifice daily like the Jews in the old contract. yup that's what i mean....lol

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Halleluja!!!

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Halleluja!!!

Ah, clever comparison with the Lucifer/Tower thing.

I guess we'll just need better brains before a lot of this makes sense.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

The other philosophical questions you asked have already been answered by thinkers over a millenia ago. Your biggest detraction appears to be an EMOTIONAL, not logical, dislike of the idea of God existing. When I say "not logical" it's not intended as an insult since you've clarified that you believe the evidence, at this time, does not justify naturalistic philosophy solely on a logical basis.

Also, the idea that the Earth is the center of the universe originated with the pagan Greeks. But I'm not surprised you mention that considering the straight-out BS being taught on the subject nowadays in the education system. To save myself time I'll copy and paste my own comments on the subject:

quote:

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On a side note, in today's education system they're basically teaching revisionist history, teaching that Galileo was rejected solely based upon beliefs and implying that the church, as well as other scientists, were close-minded and stupid. In reality, the original rejection of the Copernican model was entirely based upon science**.

Besides being interesting knowledge, astronomy at the time was used extensively by sailors for navigating the ocean. Even though Galileo rejected the idea of the Earth as the center of the universe, he still believed that the planets moved in perfect circular orbits, when in fact these orbits were elliptical. While the Ptolemaic model was obviously flawed, and had to be adjusted every so many years, it was at least capable of predicting the movements of the stars. This is the primary scientific reason the Catholic church rejected Galileo's ideas: it wasn't useful for any practical applications since it produced skewed data.

From my research Galileo appears to have been a very interesting character, a brash and in-your-face type of guy. If he had been a little more, let's say, diplomatic in his approach, not stepping on so many toes, it's possible he could have avoided the entire incident. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to downplay the culpability of the Catholic church. I'm merely pointing out that the gross distortion of the modern story was apparently devised in an attempt to make Christianity look bad. If all the facts of the case are revealed, instead of "revised", then a very different picture of the event emerges.

**Though in the case of Galileo's house arrest there was the "little" matter of him directly insulting the intelligence of the Pope... not exactly a wise political move. It was also a matter of bad timing, since after Luther the Catholic church was cracking down on any open disobediance. If Galileo had insulted the Pope in private he probably could have gotten away with it, but his insults were published in a book. Doh!

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I've reviewed a sampling of textbooks being used in local high schools and colleges and they usually claim that Galileo's ideas were rejected solely on the basis that his views of the Earth and Universe allegedly conflicted with the Bible. This is blatantly false, but that is what is being taught.

The Church needs to ease down.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

Churchy McEase. I was in a church a couple times when I was younger, drank a juice box and left, kinda reminded me of school. And no, that's not why I dislike religion.

quote:

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The Church needs to ease down.

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Why? Because you dislike them? Reality check: The world does not revolve around you and your likes and dislikes.

quote:

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but really all you've got is atoms and smaller things just chilling or moving around.

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Do you know that as a fact? Or do you simply have an emotional dislike for the idea of the supernatural?

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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Yo, Church... EASE it on down naaaaow.
Mkay? It's like, doots doots doots shiggity schwaaaaaa. (eased)
But alas, no dice.
"This ain't ova."

quote:

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We know atoms exist.
Just cause you don't understand something doesn't mean you can call it supernatural.

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Maybe I should rephrase my question my question: How do you know that they're "all you've got"?

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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Hey, we don't know everything.
Let's not dub everything unknown as supernatural, mkay?

And no, I don't have any survey statistics, graphs, pie charts, credible sources, results of online polls, knowledgeable mentors, history text books, Galileo biographies (lol?!), political cartoons or flash cards to prove my 'theory' that we don't know everything. Yeah, I'm SPECULATING, like the very first prehistoric noob who was asked about the lights in the sky and replied with 'SUPERNATURAL SPIRITS FROM THE GREAT BEYOND!'

I refuse to believe that everything was a cosmic co-incidence. All the pieces of the puzzles fit a little too nicely. How many times have you dropped the puzzle pieces and had them all fall into place? I know it's never happened for me! They have also never put themsleves together by themselves...

Well, it's going to be very sad to look down from Heaven and see people who did not accept Christ. I don't want you to be there Cheese.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

quote:

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Hey, we don't know everything.

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I agree with that statement 100%.

quote:

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Let's not dub everything unknown as supernatural, mkay?

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I'm not saying we do. There are a lot of unknowns that I see as being natural, just not explained yet. Yet I do not throw away the idea that there are other things that may be supernatural.

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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Usually when in a debate with atheists or non-Christians I usually try to keep my arguments within the boundaries of the natural, the testable. My experience with relating miracles as evidence for God and the Bible hasn't been a good one. Usually it's more harmful than anything since they usually automatically assume I'm either lying or am crazy, thus negating my ability to witness effectively.

The other part of it is that I'm not exactly comfortable discussing "spiritual matters", emotions, and other personal experiences with most friends; especially people I barely know! I'm making an exception this time but it's not usually something I do.

Though it does't help matters at all when there were other Christians in these discussions making misinformed posts and/or absurd claims. One well-meaning man wrote about how it was "a miracle from God" that he had been able to stop smoking. Of course, that just angered the others in the discussion for some of them had quit smoking on their own willpower. I still feel embarrassed about this one discussion a few years back where one guy insisted dinosaurs came about by Adam... uh, procreating with animals.

Then there are people who will actually lie and claim stories about miracles that never occurred. Or there are stories like the above where common occurrences are considered to be miracles. Stories of miracles from missionaries and organizations likes Gospel for Asia are good faith builders but they're usually not convincing to a skeptic.

Anyways, those awkward discussions have led me to only relate miracles that I know are real from first-hand experience. I also try to relate stories where a naturalistic explanation is implausible or at least far-fetched. I've also become fairly skeptical when other Christians relate miracles they've ONLY heard of themselves.

For this post I've narrowed my list of miracles down to three I think you guys might find interesting. Admittedly, the first two were related to me after the fact but they're from people I trust and the "best" in relation to being unexplainable as anything else but supernatural events. There are others I could talk about but I learned of them mostly through word of mouth and not directly from the source (the person(s) who experienced the miracle).

Miracle #1

Years ago my father suffered from a medical condition where one of his legs was slightly longer than the other. For this doctors prescribed him a leg brace for use when walking long distances. One day he was praying for healing and suddenly his leg felt like it was on fire. After the sensation dissipated he discovered that his leg felt much better. He went to his doctor and it was confirmed that his shorter leg had grown in length within seconds to match the other. He has not experienced any difficulties with that leg since.

Possible Naturalistic Explanation: The reason I list this one as miracle #1 is because it has me stumped. Any naturalistic explanation I've come up with sounds like SciFi... quantum fluctuations? Then again, I imagine some people might employ that quote about technology and magic from Arthur C. Clarke or just claim that there must be more to discover about the physics of the universe.

Miracle #2

In 1996/1997 (I'm horrible with remembering dates), while I was living in Germany, several of my cousins were on a commercial jet flying over the Gulf of Mexico to go on a missions trip in South America. The jet had instrumentation and communications failure and the pilot became lost out over the ocean. In order to find his bearing he tried circling. My relative Alan became quite concerned when he realized that the plane trip was taking a lot longer than it should (not to mention that he could see the stewards were very worried about something). Knowing something was up my relatives huddled together and began to pray.

Eventually the captain's voice came on over the intercom to announce the situation and that they were running low on fuel and should prepare for an emergency landing in the ocean. Needless to say the majority of the passengers were scared spitless. No one knew they were out there or their exact location so there wouldn't be a rescue mission launched for a while (assuming they survived the crash).

That was when Alan's wife, Sandy, suddenly stood up from her seat and announced to everyone else's amazement (including Alan's) that she had just heard from God and He said He wouldn't let them crash. Some were derisive of her statement but others joined them to pray. During this time the Captain had lowered their altitude for attempting the emergency landing and then he announced that the fuel warning light had just started blinking. He said he would continue flying towards the direction where he thought land was until the engines stalled.

This is where the miracle occurred. For several hours those engines kept running with the fuel light blinking madly away as they continued to search for land. To everyone's relief the Captain finally spotted the shoreline of what turned out to be a country in Central America and then found a runway. With an amazing sense of impeccable timing the jet engines even quit running from "lack of fuel" the instant the wheels touched down on the tarmac! Needless to say, every single person on that jet not already a Christian became one by time the fire trucks arrived at the jet.

In fact this particular miracle was actually shown on the 700 Club at the time. My relatives even reenacted the event on a set that looked like the inside of a jet. I'm pretty sure I have a copy of the tape somewhere.

Possible Naturalistic Explanation: There was instrumentation failure so it's possible the fuel gage light was incorrect also. The problem with that explanation is that based upon the maximum fuel capacity of that particular jet and knowing the fuel consumption rate of the engines you can easily calculate that, even when biasing the numbers in favor of skepticism, the jet definitely should have ran out of fuel and crashed into the ocean. Even if they survived ditching into the water, due to the communications failure it's possible they wouldn't have been found and recovered in time.

Miracle #3

I'll post full account later when I have time. The short version is that a friend of mine died from a disease while on a missionary journey in South America, had visions of heaven, received a message from God that she has kept private to herself, and then came back alive and was 100% recovered.

Possible Naturalistic Explanation: Could have been some strange disease local to the jungles of S. America that put her into a coma that had the appearance of death. The visions of heaven were just hallucinations, random firings of the synapses. Though several doctors were with us our available medical equipment was third world quality and availability and thus we cannot be 100% certain she was physically dead.

[This message has been edited by Gump (edited January 21, 2005).]

Alright alright, my only guess for the leg thing, is that something was gunked up, and the pressure needed to build up before like, unjamming... was he still growing at the time?

Plane deal, yes sounds rather jazzed up but I'll go with your skeptical fallback thing with the instrument failure, also, what kind of plane was it, well what I'm interested in is the fuel capacity and the amount of time spent in the air.

Love those out-of-body light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel near-death experiences.

There's the short version of my rambling, and I suppose the fact that the people affected were Christians was irrevelant. For someone with their own computer + good internet , it'd be a very interesting project to look into miracles from other religions, and note any similarities... Everybody needs a few 'faith rechargers' now and then.

quote:

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Both of our beliefs are based on speculations.

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Actually, Christianity is based on faith .

quote:

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PWND!

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Y1|<35! H3'5 133t! But seriously, you're not telling me anything I don't already know . . .

I have my own miracle that keeps reminding me the spiritual world exists. Unless you believe in telepathy, I doubt it would be explainable.

I'm debating whether to tell it to you, though, as it seems you're not going to believe it anyways.

The only thing I can say is that your attitide isn't going to help you at all in life. I wish you'd approach the Bible the same way Shelock Holmes approaches his cases:

"We approached the case, you remember, with an absolutely blank mind, which is always an advantage. We had formed no theories. We were simply there to observe and to draw inferences from our observations." --Sherlock Holmes, "The Adventure of The Cardboard Box"

But I don't think that's going to happen. You're going to keep approaching it with a closed mind that's already convinced it's all a fairy tale.

Sigh . . .

"It's not seeing is believing, it's believing and then seeing." -- Mack's sig

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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2. I'd have to call my relatives or find the video to be certain of the model. I do remember doing the calculations at the time knowing the minimum fuel usage and the number of hours they were in the air. Jets don't fly on fumes, they fly like a brick don't.

3. It wasn't "near-death", she was "dead" (heart not beating detectably) for a good amount of time before coming back. But as I said it's possible she picked up something exotic. As an example there is a mixture made from an extract of pufferfish poison that can simulate the effects of death. It paralyzes the muscles (simulating rigor mortis) and slows the body processes down (including the heart). This poison, tetrodotoxin, has even been used in an attempt to naturalistically explain the process of zombification used by witch-doctors. Of course, this mixture is man-made and is very difficult to synthesize even with more modern tools (which I doubt many native witch-doctors own).

I am glad to see that you didn't automatically assume I'm lying. But as I said earlier, you have an emotional dislike for God and the supernatural (probably infused into you by your peers, teachers, etc.). So instead of changing your beliefs to fit the data you concoct some new theory by which your beliefs are left unchanged. Conveniently, these new theories are free of any possibility of testing, of course.

BTW, it's very possible to modify a theory so it fits your beliefs and yet still work with the currently available data or evidence. As a real example of this, when Einstein was first devising his theories he believed the 19th century naturalistic viewpoint; that God did not exist, that the natural was all there was, and that the universe had existed without beginning in a static state forever. His early calculations had required some "adjustments" so they would fit his beliefs. Years later, when he realized that the universe did indeed have a beginning, and thus must have a Creator, he went back and removed these adjustments, calling them his "cosmological fudge factor". Unfortunately for Einstein, he also possessed an emotional dislike for organized religion and he never became a Christian.

To me atheism and naturalistic philosophy isn't a worldview that can be sustained in ambiguity. For it to be a reasonable worldview it needs to be solidly based upon facts, not improbable suppositions.

On a side note, here is a snippet I wrote a long time ago pulled from my novel-series-in-progress which features two characters (a Deist and an atheist) discussing a subject relevant to the overall topic in this thread:

quote:

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“Unlike you, I don't deny the possibility that there may be a God. In fact, some physicists suggest that possibly there is indeed a creation scenario. When it comes right down to the question of if the universe is intentional or accidental the answer is a 50/50 chance.”
Jack smirked. “Or in other words, they don't know.”
“I would suggest, however, a grand unifying theory would indeed create a scenario where there is absolute truth and possibly even God. I don't want to go on and on right now, we simply don't have the time, but I’m sure you will.
“So you’re saying that the universe requires a creator? If we need a creator then so does our creator, since it logically follows.”
Elijah clucked his tongue. “That is such a cop out.”
“Prove me wrong.”
“Fine… In an unchanging universe a beginning in time is something that has to be imposed by some being outside the universe; there is no physical necessity for a beginning.
“Don’t tell me you’re going to borrow a line from Stephen Hawking to prove your point!?”
“Watch me,” Elijah shot back. “In our universe there was a beginning, nobody argues against that, with our concept of time being created at the same moment, meaning that there would need to be a physical necessity for creation. Therefore, if God is unchanging then there is no necessity for a beginning or an end, making any further observation pointless unless you know for sure God or God's plane of existence does change.”
Jack considered that for a moment, and then grudgingly admitted, “Okay, I see that, but your point?”
“I'm merely pointing out that line of reasoning would be futile. I consider that mundane comeback such a pain in the neck, it always seems to pop out in the end…. you wouldn't happen to know everything about God would you? I believe that neatly snips your argument in the bud without wasting too much of our time.”

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Can I get some feedback?

Ah yes, that Sherlock quote pops up for... the third time? I can't recall. And although you'll disagree, I am approaching it with a relatively open mind - I'm treating it like any other book. I question who wrote it and why I should believe it.

I'm wrapping up Exodus now. If anyone who saw God destroying those cities of infidels back in the start somewhere was instantly killed, I gotta wonder how anyone recorded it. And like half of the Commandments seem to be made for keeping God happy, after all he is a jealous God, in his own words. I'm also confused as to what God would have to gain from the sacrificing of livestock, but of course, it'd all make sense if my mind was just a bit more open. And what's the deal with him wanting them to make all this gold stuff, and jewelled breastplates, shouldn't it all depend on faith or something, instead of materials, well that breastplate had the tribes of Israel on it, so maybe it was like a fancy history book that you can wear. And then Moses talks God out of kicking some Hebrew *** , I didn't know a mortal mind could change God's mind, I mean if he's not affected by time, wouldn't he already know what was going to happen, and he'd never have to be surprised or angry?

As far as I know, most of my friends (well when we were younger) believed in God, but most of them seem to have grown out of it (ooh, ain't that a kick in the pants). Then again, some of my classmates who do believe in God certainly piss me off, a particularly stupid one mentioned "I don't really care about this tsunami stuff, because it's obvious that God wanted it to happen." Probably not a good example of a Christian, but isn't it interesting how she trusts in a God who would kill over two hundred thousand people for the heck of it? In the end, though, it's scientific stuff where I place my trust, not my "emotional dislike", for example, dinosaurs own the Bible, they ruled the planet long before humans existed, small lizard-like dinosaurs with feathers, YES now those are cool, certainly points towards birds in my books, or primitive mammals with reptilian features, with no human fossils of that age in sight, hehe.

Mkay, enough rambling about dinosaurs, back to religion, mkay, religious books are written by humans, who somehow know how the universe began, ah very mysterious, isn't it, maybe God left one of his journals lying around, but then, there's so many religions with their books and theories of creation. Each religion has people just as faithful as the people from other religions, which from an outsider's point of view, would make them all very similar, but each religion KNOWS that it's right because of, well just that its followers have nice warm fuzzy feelings in their hearts, awwww isn't that sweet, but then, if there's only one right religion, then most people with faith must be WRONG and must be misguided, even though their faith was just as strong. Damn, that was a big-*** sentence. So, there's no way to tell which religion is right.

The only fun thing left to do, in my opinion, is to look for answers and chip away at mysteries until they make sense, oh it'll take some doing. Just keep an open mind and accept that we don't know everything, and we may prove ourselves wrong before finding what works. So maybe it's religion that is close-minded, since each one KNOWS it's right...

Oh yeah, and about miracles, yep mind-boggling and unexpected, but whenever the outcome is good, it's a miracle from the big man, and when it's bad, it's just nature, or human error, or the Devil, or like the classmate I mentioned, just God keeping us on our toes and wiping out some folk.

Zombification. Awesome word, man. It PWNZ my vocab.

[This message has been edited by CheeseStorm (edited January 22, 2005).]

Belief is not from speculation, my dear friend, belief is from knowing that there is something better than what we have now. Yea, you can try to say it's something different, but we all know better than those delusions.

I posted a verse awhile ago about blessed are those who believe who have not seen, hmmm. I've never seen any of the authors of the books at the library, so they must not be true or they are false. That quote comes up for a reason, I mean, you aren't open minded.

I'm not going to even comment on your reading of Exodus, evidently you read what you wanted to read, not what's really there.

Growing out of God isn't quite what happens, I'd say that paying more attention to the sins of the flesh is probably more like it. God doesn't cause the tsunami, he allows it to happen, big difference. Oh, and the whole dinosaur thingy, well, I stick to how we don't know how long God's days were. The dinosaurs could have been and past in one of the days prior to Adam and Eve. Besides, how do I know that all the dinosaur bones are real, I don't have any dinosaurs to ask or examine. Besides, I havn't seen them so it's logical to not believe in them.

Faith can be misplaced.
You seem to think you are right all the time, what a hypocrite I say.

Miracles happen, and you are in denial. I don't know why you bother, you are only making a fool out of yourself in my eyes with your pathetic arguements and foolhardy reasoning. Besides, I've always said that anyone who can't think of anything intelligent to say will swear. Go find a thesaurus pal, they have many nice words that don't offend people.

By the way, I have no clue what PWND or PWNZ or anything like that means, and frankly, I think it is quite idiotic. I know you're gonna give me crap, and I can almost predict everything you will say to counter everything I've said. So go ahead, I've got lots of time on my hands and it's fun to listen to you try to convince us of the load of bull you are trying to feed us.

Well, enough out of me, hope it wasn't too cheesy.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

quote:

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Ah yes, that Sherlock quote pops up for... the third time? I can't recall. And although you'll disagree, I am approaching it with a relatively open mind - I'm treating it like any other book. I question who wrote it and why I should believe it.

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Again, with emphasis:

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"We approached the case, you remember, with an absolutely blank mind, which is always an advantage. We had formed no theories. We were simply there to observe and to draw inferences from our observations." --Sherlock Holmes, "The Adventure of The Cardboard Box"

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Sherlock wasn't even being a skeptic off the bat. He saved his skepticism until he had gathered all the facts. An open mind does not draw conclusions while its still gathering information.

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." --Sherlock Holmes, "A Scandal in Bohemia"

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And like half of the Commandments seem to be made for keeping God happy, after all he is a jealous God, in his own words.

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Well, the first two are about God, yes. And why not? He knows full well the other "gods" don't exist. He's "jealous" of other "gods". "gods" he knows don't exist.

The rest are pretty much common sense morals. Don't steal, don't murder, etc.

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I'm also confused as to what God would have to gain from the sacrificing of livestock, but of course, it'd all make sense if my mind was just a bit more open.

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Ahh, that . It's a common thread and theme throughout the entire Bible that goes from Genesis to Revelation . You'll probably have a clearer picture of what it all means when you reach the New Testament.

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And then Moses talks God out of kicking some Hebrew *** , I didn't know a mortal mind could change God's mind, I mean if he's not affected by time, wouldn't he already know what was going to happen, and he'd never have to be surprised or angry?

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I think God was testing Moses then. I should probably read that story again myself - you got a chapter, verse?

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And what's the deal with him wanting them to make all this gold stuff, and jewelled breastplates, shouldn't it all depend on faith or something, instead of materials, well that breastplate had the tribes of Israel on it, so maybe it was like a fancy history book that you can wear.

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There's a few places where God just gives the Isrealites a lot of instructions. I'm not much for speculation, but perhaps God was giving them a way to set themselves apart. Special military equipment would be especially useful in identifying who's friend and foe - something even modern commanders have trouble with sometimes.

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As far as I know, most of my friends (well when we were younger) believed in God, but most of them seem to have grown out of it (ooh, ain't that a kick in the pants).

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I'm not surprised, since there seems to be a hostile "it's just a fairy tale" climate against Christianity right now.

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In the end, though, it's scientific stuff where I place my trust, not my "emotional dislike"

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Didn't we just show that the scientific stuff does not disprove Christianity?

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maybe God left one of his journals lying around

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He did. We call it the "Bible". Maybe you didn't know this, but it is believed that, although written by humans, their writing was guided by God himself. We say the scriptures are inspired by God.

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but each religion KNOWS that it's right because of, well just that its followers have nice warm fuzzy feelings in their hearts

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If warm fuzzy feelings were the only reason I had for believing the Bible, I'd drop it in a heartbeat.

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By the way, I have no clue what PWND or PWNZ or anything like that means, and frankly, I think it is quite idiotic.

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It's l33t speak for "OWNED" and "OWNZ" - He thinks he "owns" us, ie has the upper hand in the discussion. Which I find amusing, but wrong.

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - hoping to get more done over the holidays . . .

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

I read what was on the paper, not 'what I wanted to read'. Maybe you could at least make an attempt to clear up my questions, like Cobra did.

I'll admit that I'm not right all the time. My beliefs change or are replaced as new discoveries are made. Adapt and evolve, cause change happens.

LMFAO 'foolhardy reasoning', yes, why use logic when we can believe in ancient fairy-tales?

Aww, I said '*** ' a few times. If you're offended by pixels, you're quite a rare specimen. I'm supposed to find a thesaurus to find alternatives for *** ? Note how I'm not offended by you calling me a fool, or calling my beliefs a load of bull.

Mkay, on to Cobra. Hey, I'm not Sherlock. It's a habit of mine to question what I'm reading. And yes, I agree, the other Commandments are common sense. I wonder if we need them, then.

Sorry, don't have the verse thing, but it's right after Aaron makes the golden calf, and they're all dancing about, and God is about to smite some foowels. And Moses is like 'Dude, then the Egyptians will be like "lol their God saved them from us just to kill them elsewhere"' and God is like, 'True, true.'

Phew, those instruction parts just about killed me, so detailed.

My friends' parents are mostly religious, so maybe it's just our generation, the generation of change mahahahahahaha.

Oh no, science can't disprove Christianity or any other religion. It's just an alternative religion, only where your beliefs change often as mysteries are unravelled, which end up creating more mysteries, and on it goes.

Ah, here's a quote, rather ironic coming from someone who called me a hypocrite (Max): "Besides, I havn't seen them so it's logical to not believe in them."

Reminds me of God!

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Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
[B]Everyone's faith is based on beliefs which are based on speculations, I guess. And those speculations come from our good ole brains.

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I'm wrapping up Exodus now. If anyone who saw God destroying those cities of infidels back in the start somewhere was instantly killed, I gotta wonder how anyone recorded it. And like half of the Commandments seem to be made for keeping God happy, after all he is a jealous God, in his own words. I'm also confused as to what God would have to gain from the sacrificing of livestock, but of course, it'd all make sense if my mind was just a bit more open. And what's the deal with him wanting them to make all this gold stuff, and jewelled breastplates, shouldn't it all depend on faith or something, instead of materials, well that breastplate had the tribes of Israel on it, so maybe it was like a fancy history book that you can wear. And then Moses talks God out of kicking some Hebrew *** , I didn't know a mortal mind could change God's mind, I mean if he's not affected by time, wouldn't he already know what was going to happen, and he'd never have to be surprised or angry?

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As far as I know, most of my friends (well when we were younger) believed in God, but most of them seem to have grown out of it (ooh, ain't that a kick in the pants).
[quote]
that is sad for them, but i suppose they also used to believe in santa clause, the tooth fairy and the easter bunny as well? and God in their lives was probably included in the same sort of category, not an all powerful, all caring, and even PERSONAL God, however i don't know these people nor their hearts so can't really say, but max probably hit a nail on the head, often its our 'flesh' , our sins , our lusts, and our rebellion that turn us away from God. on another point, i find it quite amusing that there are SOOO many self proclaimed atheists who on one hand stand up and proclaim strongly that God doesn't exist and that we evolved from pond scum, and then on the other hand are deeply angry at this non existant God - food for thought.

[quote]
Mkay, enough rambling about dinosaurs, back to religion, mkay, religious books are written by humans, who somehow know how the universe began, ah very mysterious, isn't it, maybe God left one of his journals lying around, but then, there's so many religions with their books and theories of creation.

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Each religion has people just as faithful as the people from other religions, which from an outsider's point of view, would make them all very similar, but each religion KNOWS that it's right because of, well just that its followers have nice warm fuzzy feelings in their hearts, awwww isn't that sweet, but then, if there's only one right religion, then most people with faith must be WRONG and must be misguided, even though their faith was just as strong.
[quote]
one thing is most religions do have some truth in them, for we all live in a spiritual reality, and like the cube in the beginning, experience and intrepet it differently, however contrary intepretations can not all be right, there is only one truth, and as christians we don't know it all, but we can dicern some things that are wrong even if we don't know the whole picture, and we know some of the foundational truths.
So, there's no way to tell which religion is right. And also most religions changed from something that was true, and got distorted over time (even as branches of christianity have, it doesn't take long for things to get messed up, a bit like a chinese wisper, but thankfully that God himself is faithful to preserve his truth for us). Here is a scenario about multiple religions - if for example i 'defend' my religion, because it is MINE, my group of people belief it, and everybody else is wrong (and i don't care about them or whatever), then "my christianity" is no different than any body else defending their own faith), however if i love and respect the other people of other religions (because they are valuable and made by God and special to God), i am no longer defending my religion for my own sake, but rather in love showing them the way to escape their disease (of sin), the same way as i would to people who had aids, if i had the cure for aids, the fact is that no matter my motives, if i have the cure for aids, i have the cure, - sure others may belief that garlic cures aids, or maybe even pigs blood mixed with coca cola, but in the end the truth is the truth and absolute. one thing about religions but more about ideas, PEOPLE ARE CREATED EQUAL, but IDEAS are not all equal, i know i've had some stupid ideas in my time. i'm sure you can think of different ideas that are not equal, and if treated equal would be disasterous (for example if all techniques of say boat building were equal, then there would be alot more drownings). atheism and darwinism are also not equal to other thoughts, i myself was the one that said that the natural outworking of atheistic , and darwinistic worldview has killed more people in history, or at least the last 500 years, than religious wars (and particularlly christian wars), and also pointed out that those so called 'christian wars', were only christian by label, for they , unlike atheistic worldview which naturally work themselves out in destruction consequences, were in complete contradiction to the tenets and beliefs and foundations of christianilty, but if you want to discus this lets make a new thread.
[quote]
The only fun thing left to do, in my opinion, is to look for answers and chip away at mysteries until they make sense, oh it'll take some doing.
Just keep an open mind and accept that we don't know everything, and we may prove ourselves wrong before finding what works. So maybe it's religion that is close-minded, since each one KNOWS it's right...

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Oh yeah, and about miracles, yep mind-boggling and unexpected, but whenever the outcome is good, it's a miracle from the big man, and when it's bad, it's just nature, or human error, or the Devil, or like the classmate I mentioned, just God keeping us on our toes and wiping out some folk.

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i've witnessed a fair few miracles, even like a little child who before my very eyes 1 toe shrank and disapeared (she had had 6 toes), healing of people who had internal diseases (often the ones scoffed at most) like cancer , aids etc, but these are all verified by doctors who couldn't explain it . i mean one day you have aids, the next day you don't. many many other such things as well, and then if you take first account experiences of my first level contacts, like best friends who i trust, and don't make up stories etc, they have experienced even things like risings for the dead (even in cases when the person had been dead for days, and was rotting), even in cases when autopsies had been done, and organs removed, but alas most people won't believe these things unless they were there themselves, people who have SEEN angels with their own two eyes etc,then comes the other supernatural experiences such as word of knowledge and prophecies, i've had many prophecies come true, but more than just conincidences and things made up by people, things that have been said, that are so consistant, but said by people who don't know each other in the slightest, and in extremely different parts of the world, and convering things about me that nobody knows, things i've never told people - sure it could be explained in many ways, but it is still 'supernatural'. And i hear God's voice, in many ways, sometimes telling me to do things, telling me something about somebody so i can help, pray , minister to them, even as a young man covering things that doni't even seem to be spiritual, for example when i was about 15 or so, i had my bike stolen, "God told me" (smirk and discount me as crazy now) to go to one parciular street corner on one particular day at one particular time, and somebody riding my bike would come riding along, and of course at the time i thought "am i imagining things, this is crazy", but i "felt" it was God, and decided to do it, and sure enough there comes the guy, and then me in my 'rightoues' (sarc) anger, pushed the guy off the bike violently to reclaim it, and i caught the guys eyes, and felt a huge amount of rejection and hurt in them, and realised that God telling me wasn't about me getting a material possession back, so much as to be able to show grace , mercy and forgiveness to this guy, to show him the love of God - a task i failed , but i lesson i've never forgotten. many many many more such events could be recalled, including many that could be written off as coincidences, but as a jigsaw, you put them all together and its no coincidence, but aseries of Godincidences painting a beautiful tapestry of his artistic work in our lives, the stories of how God has provided my needs and money etc are amazing, many cases being overseas and God has told me pretty much to give away everything, then i'm left trusting him, and having him surprise me this way or that way, as he provides in some of the most creative ways.

i believe that if you really study the history and culture and experiences of man ,that you can't honestly say that 'spiritualilty' of some sort exists, of course you could explain it a number of ways, in models of various religions or try to tie it into a scientific method, (maybe linking the spiritual connection to another physical direction, or some sort of 'cosmic conscienousness' based on the non locality of protons or something), any spiritual experience i could tell you could be explained in another model (even if it is so full of holes), however as you put the jigsaw together as a whole, then emerges only one picture, one truth that can hold true over the test of time, and in due time, truth will be revealed in its fullest, and on judgement day, no other theories will be able to stand.

Karl

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

Alright, if there's no simple answer for why God promotes animal sacrifice, then I'll just live with what I've got now (a big question mark over my head, but not an urgent one).

I wasn't there for the bike thing obviously, but I'd say you did the right thing. When I was in Tae Kwon Do I took an oath to always flee from a fight whenever possible (thankfully I've never even been confronted for a fight), so that there wouldn't be any violence. Later on I thought, if nobody ever stomps bullies, there will be victims who don't get the option of running away, and they'll pay the price for the people before them who ran away.

So if there's one lesson I really like from this Bible, it's the 'eye for eye, tooth for tooth' one, what goes around comes around, stomp out evil before it gets a chance to do any more.

Just thought it might help, I'm sorry 'bout earlier again dude, we cool?

I've got more time on my hands now, I'll try to be more open-minded and less hypocritical I've been a dork, and an idiot as you so politely put it, but I guess I wasn't thinking.

Sorry for rambling guys, enough is enough, eh?

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

2. The Law, which is of unequivocal justice, was given so that humanity might understand how badly they were sinning.

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Romans 5:20
20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

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3. This is why we don't see you as being open-minded. You make posts like:

belief x = fairy tale nonsense or "MFAO 'foolhardy reasoning', yes, why use logic when we can believe in ancient fairy-tales?"

Insulting assertions usually do not coincide with the claim to be open-minded. You could have phrased your disbelief like this:

I believe that belief x is incorrect or "fool-hardy" due to data y. Can you provide evidence to counteract this assumption?

4. I was going to make a post yesterday on the subject of the insults directed at cheesestorm but never found time to access a (functioning) computer. I'm glad to see everyone has apologized already.

5. Cheesestorm, you both say I shouldn't automatically attribute the events I described to the supernatural or to God and that the fact that the "people affected were Christians was irrevelant". The problem with this is that in each case the miracle occurred WHILE people were praying TO God. Also, in the case of the jet incident the majority of the people onboard were not Christians. Sandy also received a message while NOT hallucinating (or in any abnormal state) that they wouldn't crash BEFORE the fuel ran out.

[This message has been edited by Gump (edited January 24, 2005).]

Max, I don't mind you calling my beliefs a load of bull, as long as you back up why they're bull.

Weird things happen for the better when no Christians are around so they're not miracles.

Gump says: "Science vs Religion" is a logical fallacy intended to frame the debate in favor of a certain religion. It's Religion vs Religion.

Gump says: 1. Science isn't a religion, belief system, or a worldview; it's a methodical tool

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Alright, if there's no simple answer for why God promotes animal sacrifice, then I'll just live with what I've got now (a big question mark over my head, but not an urgent one).

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there is a simple answer, but i don't think it would satisfy you without understanding the full reasons behind, the reason is basically why we need a saviour, why we need Jesus, and it is because God is a JUST God, full of justice, for example if there was a human judge, who just because he was kind (as God is) let off murderers and rapists without sending them to jail or anything, because he had compassion, people would say that this judge is indeed NOT GOOD, but corrupt and not delivering justice. When God judges and as he will judge the world, he is not some big angry ogre just trying to make life difficult for us, he is doing his job, because sin requires punishment, the bible says "the wages of sin is death" and wages mean it is something that we earn, because we sin, we earn death, and justice has to be paid, and the only way that sin can be paid for is the shedding of blood, animal sacrifice was to drive this point in , but it was only temporary, and a 'shadow' of what was to come and had rich meanings (as Jesus is our passover lamb, whose blood saves us from death (as the blood of the passover lamb spared those families who had the blood on their doorframe) and delivers us from "egypt" (representing slavery , for all who sin are a slave to sin), which was Jesus, because God himself because of his great love, grace and mercy, took the price of our sin, so that we can be free from the wages of sin (which are death) and enter into new life in him.

if you are searching as you seem to be and reading the bible,
i recommend you first to read these 3 books
JOHN , ROMANS and JAMES.

Karl

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

2.

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Weird things happen for the better when no Christians are around so they're not miracles.

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Explain the logical sequence behind that statement.

3. If by quoting me you're implying there is a contradiction involved then I suggest you reread what I said and think on it further.

If that is not the case, then what was the purpose of the quotes?

a few posts back you made mention of the "baconic ideal" of what science is. I was wondering if you've read "the New Atlantis" by bacon and if so I'd like to get your thoughts about what you think bacon was really saying

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

So, Cheese, believe it or don't, but I can tell you one thing for my life. My Lord and Savior helps me out so much in my life, and he has done so much for me, I don't see how people could live without him.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

2 Peter 1:16
16We did not follow cleverly invented STORIES when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were EYEWITNESSES of his majesty.

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - hoping to get more done over the holidays . . .

Man if you haven't noticed I'm not in the mood for discussion right now, some high-pitched annoying bitch on American Idol (family is watching) is screaming 'Lady Marmalade' if that's what the song's called.

Kay must remember what I'm responding too mkay yes I'd say anyone who kills animals is no better than a murderer and come to think of it that sacrificial stuff is absolute ******** and someday I'll go back in time to slap those idiots, and I guess animal cruelty still exists, so much slapping needs to be done, more than is possible, well for one person.

Kay miracles yes yes uh what I meant was they happen in all religions, or in no religions, I suppose you can counter that with 'God is everywhere and does it all' well, there are people from other religions who believe in miracles just as much for their own God.

Damnit, that's like the essence of like, religion's funniness/annoyingness: You say God helps you out all the time and you can't imagine how people who don't believe in him can survive, well there's people in other religions who say the exact same thing, there's no effing difference. Your faith is neurons, my faith is neurons, bin Laden's faith is neurons.

*edit*
Yeah I was just thinking about that ******* animal sacrifice stuff, yeah get rid of your sins by killing a goat, congrats, btw you require a knife to the heart, then there's like lab animals being tested on, it's like so hard to decide on, cause like what if you use a monkey to find a cure for some disease that saves a human, and that human lives to save like ten more monkeys, or like ten other humans that each save ten monkeys, monkeys are like booYAHgah,
wait if I could ditch all my bad habits of like emotions that I've grown up and be like machine style, I'd see everything for what it is, just like atoms and smaller, shrink myself down to the quantum level, k I'm like so small now my universe is like a hydrogen atom anyway then I wouldn't 'care' about stuff, emotions are like, hmm good or bad, both, machines rule though, it's like 100% progress, never get bored

[This message has been edited by CheeseStorm (edited January 26, 2005).]

What do you want us to say, Cheese? Nothing you've said has changed my mind at all. I don't think you understand us well enough, so, I'm done here, unless someone makes a really good point.

Bye all, it was fun, sorta, in a weird way.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

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Yeah I was just thinking about that ******* animal sacrifice stuff, yeah get rid of your sins by killing a goat, congrats,

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The only way anyone has his\her sins forgiven is by the blood of Christ, not any animals blood. Christ died for all; past, present, and future. The shedding of an animals blood was like a shadow of what was to come. I like this way of explaining it:

It's like when people would sin in the days before Christ, God would add it up on a credit balance. But 2,000 years ago, the master came and paid the bill, He canceled all the debts of those before, and established a credit balance for whosoever will.

The killing of animals really shows us the seriousness of how bad sin really is. Yes it is true that 'miracles' also occur outside of Christianity. But you also must remember that God loves everyone and He is not willing that anyone should perish. Many people first believed in Christ because of a miracle that they witnessed. (Anyone know of any biblical examples? I don't off the top of my head.) The devils best trick is to get the world to believe that he doesn't exist. But he indeed does exist. Okay, you admited that miracles happen, so how do you dismiss the supernatural? Just neurons? How can you know that? I'm not fussing here, just trying to make a point.

There is huge difference between Christianity and the other religions. First off, one of the major differences is that with the other religious leaders such as Buddah or Muhammad,... well no one ever heard of them before they were born. But the Seed of the woman was annouced from Genesis. People knew that the Messiah would come. He was prophesied before He was born. Many events in His life were also written before his birth. Even the way that He would die, it was prophesied in remarkable accuracy.

I've read that the odds of only 8 of the prophesies being fulfilled in one man is like filling up the state of Texas with quarters two feet deep. Then marking one of the quarters with an X, flying over Texas, then dropping it in somewhere. Then you blindfold a man and tell him to walk through Texas; and at anytime to bend down and pick up a quarter, the odds of him picking up the marked quarter is 1 in 10 to the 17th power (1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000). This is the same as 8 of the prophecies coming true in any one man. If it were only 48 prophecies being fulfilled then that'd be 1 in 10 to the 157th power. It looks kinda like this; 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000, 000

But Jesus fulfilled over 300!

And the same Bible that says 300 times that Jesus was coming the first time says over 600 times that He's coming back again!

Secondly, the Bible is incredibly unique to any literature in the history of mankind. It was written by around some 40 authors. These were people from a variety of different backgrounds. By these diverse authors the Bible was written over a period of some 1500 years. And it shows an unchanging message that flows seamlessly through all 66 books! From Genesis to Revelation. It would be interesting to see what a science book written by 40 some authors from different backgrounds, and over the process of 1500 years would say, or if it'd would agree from start to finish.

No book has even attempted to predict the future with such boldness, and yet the Bible has done so with remarkable accuracy. How about the prophesies being 100% accurate. If you were to gamble the with those odds, then you'd never lose!

Other religions have faith but nothing at all like faith in Christ. In other religions you have to earn salvation. You have to work your way into heaven. But with Christianity, God has done all of the 'work' for us. He died for us. We must simply believe. It's not an ignorant or blind faith either. We have good reason to believe in Christ.

I actually know a person who tried to 'ditch' all of his emotions and be like a robot... I don't think you wanna go there. Life is more than progress. I think it's pretty sad that people actually would want to become robotic. Maybe you'd have more progress, but if you removed all your emotions, then you wouldn't even care. It's almost like another way of saying that you want to die. You need to open your eyes Cheese and quit living in a fantasy world. God has so many good things in store for us, I just hope that you find that out before it's to late. And believe me, no matter which way you choose, you're still gonna find it to be true.

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I wanna die
And let You give
Your Life to me
So that I might live

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited January 27, 2005).]

No excuse for animal sacrifice, other than lame spiritual beliefs.

I think the supernatural is just stuff happening that we can't understand, since we don't know much about... anything. And by 'miracles' in other religions, I just meant that every religion has "acts of God", and its followers will believe it just as much as Christians followers.

What's the Genesis quote about Jesus coming, I must've missed it.

It'd be interesting to read the other religious books and see about their prophecies and which have 'come true'.

Ooh wow, I could make a notepad thing saying one MILLION times that my dog will die within fifteen years, aHA check out that prophecy fulfillment, now how many quarters do we need, aha and WOW it says that Jesus is returning 600 times? Those chapters are gonna kill me!

Hmm, if the Bible was written over a period of 1500 years, how come the speech is so similar throughout it, I'm just wondering here.

Heh yeah, science changes, cause it can admit it's wrong at times.

Yeah and what's this part about the Bible predicting the future with remarkable accuracy, are you just talking about the Bible saying 'Jesus will be born', that's ollllld-schooooooool, get with the trans-humanists, now there's some future-prediction.

Bla bla the other religions still have as much faith and as much reason to believe.

There you've hit it, yes if we're not here for a purpose, we may as well die, but since we're so attached to our emotions, only suicidal people kill themselves, plus our curiosity keeps us going I think, we're such inquisitive little apes.

"And believe me, no matter which way you choose, you're still gonna find it to be true." Well then, there'd be a lot more Christians, oh and don't try telling me my future, unless you've got like evidence and not just opinion.

quote:

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CheeseStorm wrote:
What's the Genesis quote about Jesus coming, I must've missed it.

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Indeed you did. Hint: Genesis chapter 3.

I think you're better off tackling one thing at a time. Nothing wrong with reading other books, but trying to make any intelligent philosophical deduction with so much different information - especially with the amount of skepticism you have - might be too much mental homework. This is just my honest recommendation, but you certainly are free to take your own actions.

As for animal sacrifices...I think in comparison to all the other options in dealing with "pleasing the gods" if you will, animal sacrifice is much better than the human sacrifice some religions require. You can cry "lame spiritual beliefs" all you want, but when you compare what God says to obey versus that of other religions, you will have to admit that what the Bible says is better common sense than the article that you introduced this discussion with - because the Bible covers more than religion, as stated so many times here before, and all the Bible deals with that is not "supernatural" can be proven and is the evidence you keep demanding.

I'm glad you have taken up reading the Bible. I hope your continued conversation here can take a more positive turn, in that the repetitive ridicule you deliver is finally abandoned for actual candid honesty on the topic. I'm glad several people have continued to keep this discussion going for your sake - which believe it or not is sincere and for the benefit of your understanding - but the mocking tone you have perfected is far beyond bothersome and I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that a bit more civil decency is not too much to ask for the kindness you have been shown.

You never say anything different Cheese, it's always the same thing. You don't seem like you want to believe.... so it's like you won't believe even if we present you with the opportunity.... Almost as if we are holding out to you a red apple and you are telling us that its not red, in a sense. I know this post if fruitless, because you will mock how I used apples, just as you mocked the quarters. I wonder if you came to this site for guidance, and you are trying to convince yourself against it.... Hmm, something to think about.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

quote:

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Hmm, if the Bible was written over a period of 1500 years, how come the speech is so similar throughout it, I'm just wondering here.

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I'm glad that you noticed this, good job . This is because God is the author and not mere men. It's also interesting that the writers of the Bible were led to avoid scientific misconceptions of the times that it was written. When science said that the earth flat and on a pedestal, the bible said that God hangs the earth on nothing. And that He sits on the circle (sphere in Hebrew) of the earth. If you guess enough you can say something that will happen in the future, but you will fail more often that naught. The Bible has never failed.

I'm not saying that you have done this, but one of the most common mistakes by skeptics is the thought that the Bible was written in English. But it was actually written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. Hebrew and Aramaic are used in the old testament. The new testament is written in 'street' Greek (which happens to be the most detailed and precise language in the history of mankind)

quote:

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Well then, there'd be a lot more Christians, oh and don't try telling me my future, unless you've got like evidence and not just opinion.

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No, I mean that if you don't find out before you die, then you will find out then, when it's too late. But that wouldn't make you a Christian. If you don't repent of your sins, and accept Christ's death (receive the gift God has given you) as the punishment for your sins, then you're going to have to pay for them yourself, in a place called Hell. How tragic would that be?

Yeah I saw that you got a laugh out of my statement about the odds there. But do you realize what you are doing? How is it possible that you ignore that? If you have any honest respect for science then how can you not see what I've shown you? What you have mocked is something called "the science of compound probabilities." Are you aware that the odds for random chance to be the means of our existence are much greater than the odds that I've shown you about Christ fulfilling 48 prophecies? When it comes to what the Bible says about Jesus, the odds are remarkably in the favor of it being true. But the odds of our existence being a cosmic accident are remarkably in the favor of being false. The chances are extremely minute, to say the least.

Actually it takes more faith to not believe than it does to believe. Why have you chosen to believe in something where the odds are extremely not in your favor? And even more important, why chose death when you can have eternal life? It's not funny at all, death vs. eternal life? C'mon man! This is worth looking into with an honest heart.

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I wanna die
And let You give
Your Life to me
So that I might live

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited January 28, 2005).]

Dude, I can't mock apples, they are like the pinnacle of evolution. But I'll try to use them in this description of how I view religion... mkay, Bob is blindfolded, sitting on a chair in the middle of a room. He's surrounded by like twenty people, each with a different-colored apple in their hand. They each get a turn to try to convince him that their apple is red. But Bob can't see which one is right. He doesn't even know if any apple is red!

And if I have to get real picky about it, the apple-givers wouldn't know either, so everyone's blindfolded... maybe all their apples are red! Aaaaagh....

I'm not mocking, I think that was a really good way of putting it. What I'm trying to say is every religion thinks it's the right one, which you probably figured out.

I think I mentioned this earlier, but I actually ended up here looking for artificial intelligence stuff from a google search, but it's always fun to ease on forums when you're not invited.

Yeah I know it wasn't written in English, God is too cool for us.

I'm really intrigued by this 'cash-in-with-Christ' thing. So you're saying that I can set fire to stray dogs, run over homeless people, and shoot at nuns, and still get out of jail scot-free, thanks to my friend the J-man? Like, if I was in a shootout, and I just blasted like six cops, but I took a hit, and I was gonna die, and chickened out and truly repented, lol man that is soooooo cheap, you should have to believe for like a minimum of ten years or something. I mean, bin Laden's cave could be collapsing, and then "yo my bad about September Eleventh" BINGO I'm talking harps and clouds for all time, smooth move Osama. DAMN that's cheap, Jesus should at least be able to initiate them into heaven with a paddling or something, come on he deserves better than shaking hands with Hitler.

I guess you already covered this in that 'faces you'd be surprised to see in Heaven' thread, so my bad, I just think it's like, a messed up system.

Well, that's the easy thing about my beliefs, they aren't written in stone. I like the Big Crunch idea just because it's neat and tidy, but hell, seems less and less likely as more discoveries are made, although I have a few theories of my own. But even if I'm wrong, it's still cool, cause it's science.

BINGO man, immortality is bewt, but I seek it differently, even though 'death' is just atoms moving around, like life, and if I had a robotic brain, I wouldn't fear it, but I'm still attached to my emotions, soooooo WOO PERSONAL GAIN - LIVE FOREVER AND ENJOY IT! So I guess we have the same goal, we're just taking different routes...

quote:

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CheeseStorm wrote:
Hehe I'm not trying to mock the quarters, but I think it depends more on the person than it does on some mathematical probability of them completing a prophecy. Jesus, well if you believe the hype, was like super-powered. It's the character that counts.

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quote:

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CheeseStorm then wrote:
Dude, I can't mock apples, they are like the pinnacle of evolution. But I'll try to use them in this description of how I view religion... mkay, Bob is blindfolded, sitting on a chair in the middle of a room. He's surrounded by like twenty people, each with a different-colored apple in their hand. They each get a turn to try to convince him that their apple is red. But Bob can't see which one is right. He doesn't even know if any apple is red!

And if I have to get real picky about it, the apple-givers wouldn't know either, so everyone's blindfolded... maybe all their apples are red! Aaaaagh....

I'm not mocking, I think that was a really good way of putting it. What I'm trying to say is every religion thinks it's the right one, which you probably figured out.

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quote:

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CheeseStorm also wrote:
I think I mentioned this earlier, but I actually ended up here looking for artificial intelligence stuff from a google search, but it's always fun to ease on forums when you're not invited.

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quote:

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CheeseStorm wrote some more:
I'm really intrigued by this 'cash-in-with-Christ' thing. So you're saying that I can set fire to stray dogs, run over homeless people, and shoot at nuns, and still get out of jail scot-free, thanks to my friend the J-man? Like, if I was in a shootout, and I just blasted like six cops, but I took a hit, and I was gonna die, and chickened out and truly repented, lol man that is soooooo cheap, you should have to believe for like a minimum of ten years or something. I mean, bin Laden's cave could be collapsing, and then "yo my bad about September Eleventh" BINGO I'm talking harps and clouds for all time, smooth move Osama. ---- that's cheap, Jesus should at least be able to initiate them into heaven with a paddling or something, come on he deserves better than shaking hands with Hitler.

I guess you already covered this in that 'faces you'd be surprised to see in Heaven' thread, so my bad, I just think it's like, a messed up system.

---

quote:

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And CheeseStorm wrote some more:
Well, that's the easy thing about my beliefs, they aren't written in stone. I like the Big Crunch idea just because it's neat and tidy, but hell, seems less and less likely as more discoveries are made, although I have a few theories of my own. But even if I'm wrong, it's still cool, cause it's science.

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quote:

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Then, in closing, CheeseStorm wrote:
BINGO man, immortality is bewt, but I seek it differently, even though 'death' is just atoms moving around, like life, and if I had a robotic brain, I wouldn't fear it, but I'm still attached to my emotions, soooooo WOO PERSONAL GAIN - LIVE FOREVER AND ENJOY IT! So I guess we have the same goal, we're just taking different routes...

---

quote:

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Hehe I'm not trying to mock the quarters, but I think it depends more on the person than it does on some mathematical probability of them completing a prophecy. Jesus, well if you believe the hype, was like super-powered. It's the character that counts.

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Yes it totally depends on the person, who in this case is God. What I was presenting to you through the mathmatical probability was something that I thought you could relate to. You believe in the unlikely odds of our existence being brought about by the random acts of nature. But you won't believe in the very likely probability of Jesus doing what the Bible says that He did? Why? As far as numbers go, I didn't see why this should be much different to you. But perhaps that would be if you were truly searching with honesty, which I don't think is the case.

quote:

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I'm really intrigued by this 'cash-in-with-Christ' thing. So you're saying that I can set fire to stray dogs, run over homeless people, and shoot at nuns, and still get out of jail scot-free, thanks to my friend the J-man? Like, if I was in a shootout, and I just blasted like six cops, but I took a hit, and I was gonna die, and chickened out and truly repented, lol man that is soooooo cheap, you should have to believe for like a minimum of ten years or something. I mean, bin Laden's cave could be collapsing, and then "yo my bad about September Eleventh" BINGO I'm talking harps and clouds for all time, smooth move Osama. DAMN that's cheap, Jesus should at least be able to initiate them into heaven with a paddling or something, come on he deserves better than shaking hands with Hitler.

---

Yes that is true, no matter what you've done, you have never gone too far. It's never too late, unless you are dead; then it'd be too late. But yeah, what you said about the shootout and Osama, that is possible. And no there isn't anything cheap about it, for it cost God Himself His very life. Here is a question for you, what would it take for you to believe in Jesus Christ?

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I wanna die
And let You give
Your Life to me
So that I might live

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited January 29, 2005).]

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

Yep, those damn emotions that we've grown up with are what make us care what happens to our atoms and other atoms, even if it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. "I'm guessing personal responsibility and accountability to authority are two things you aren't really into." Hell, I'm respectful to others, even if 90% of them are idiots, and I go to school all the time and do assignments with no purpose (and will be forgotten in like a week), but everybody in the class does them because of this 'authority' thing. So, I guess we're bossed around by other humans - equals - because it's something we've grown up with. I'm not saying we should ditch our government and laws and run wild, but damnit, we had to read a poem about teenagers riding cars in some town, and write a bunch of BS about it, can you smell the education? My conclusion: Authority is BS unless it's used to improve things. Stupid school.

So yeah, I care about others, but it's cause I'm used to it, and cooperation is necessary for big improvements.

"What I was presenting to you through the mathmatical probability was something that I thought you could relate to. You believe in the unlikely odds of our existence being brought about by the random acts of nature. But you won't believe in the very likely probability of Jesus doing what the Bible says that He did? Why?"
Duuuude I still don't believe that we're all here because of a random event, although I could be wrong, since I don't know much about, well anything that happened before our planet even existed. But it's weird to put a math equation on Jesus, I mean, it was in his character to do good. I don't see how it's like super-unlikely-quarter-scenario chance of Jesus doing a bunch of good deeds, or whatever prophecies you were talking about.

What would it take for me to believe in Jesus Christ? Wellll I believe he was real, but I don't believe he was the son of God, or he was God, whatever he's made out to be in a book supposedly written by God. For me to believe, well I'd wanna see some prophecy fulfilled that actually took place after the Bible, so the Bible can't just say "WHOA would you look at that, didn't I mention that I knew that was coming?" But even then, that wouldn't mean Jesus was like a god-powered super-dude, so hmmmm! I guess I need an angel to bust in my window and tell me to repent my **** , cause I can't believe in God just because I'm told to by others who don't know any more about the after-life than I do.

And no Max, I got the forgiveness thing down bewwwt style.

The way that I see that religion will either be proved or disproved is once you die or the day of "Christ's return" comes. A person will not (usually) flip the way they've viewed the world for the sake of someone else's vision. The point is that you gotta be happy. If you live every moment trying to please an overseer then you'll surely live not quite happy. Mabye my way of thought has spawned from that but as I see it, I got nothing to please and I live every moment. As for this heaven speak. I got almost everything the bible requests except for the faith. Oh well, rambling again...

The one thing that I did read, which was a few dozen posts ago was that (someone) said that the fact that everything seems to fit 'too well' is a cheif reason that their beliefs lean towards religion. I just gotta say, look at the current world around you. Everything strives to be in balance. Take this **** down to the atomic level for a second. An atom loses a electron, it desires to get one back to fix the balance. The universe wants balance and that's why some funky things do what they do. Ramble ramble I'm done, still tired actually from a 7 hour van ride.
<EDIT>
Hmm guess I did read something. Why would Osama prey to your (our societies') God, we've been through this, his beliefs don't fit with yours or mine. I understand that it was just an example, but now we see you stupider than we did before we read that post. He obviously didn't do it because he planned to repent his sins once he got eased on. He did it because he believed that the world trade center was a evil symbol to his people's culture.
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Jesus is f'ing metal!

[This message has been edited by CapnStank (edited January 30, 2005).]

Off of that. You only care about others because you are used to it you said, so you use people then? A sad existance my friend.

What is there to live for? What in your life keeps you going? I don't see how life could have a point without some greater being, otherwise it is all futile. My God keeps me going, without him we would all be nothing.

Well, enough from me now, except I'm wondering why if you understood the forgiveness thing Cheese, why did you make false statements about it?

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

quote:

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So, I guess we're bossed around by other humans - equals - because it's something we've grown up with.

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No, it's because the alternative - anarchy - fails miserably each time it's tried. Laws, rules, etc are neccessary to maintain order.

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I'm not saying we should ditch our government and laws and run wild, but damnit, we had to read a poem about teenagers riding cars in some town, and write a bunch of BS about it, can you smell the education? My conclusion: Authority is BS unless it's used to improve things. Stupid school.

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Just because you don't see the point of an education now, doesn't mean it's useless. I've found much of what I've learned in the education system to be useful.

quote:

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For me to believe, well I'd wanna see some prophecy fulfilled that actually took place after the Bible, so the Bible can't just say "WHOA would you look at that, didn't I mention that I knew that was coming?"

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When some women were mourning for his coming crucifixion, Jesus warned them that "the time will come when you will say, 'Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!' Then "'they will say to the mountains, "Fall on us!" and to the hills, "Cover us!"'

For if men do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?" (Luke 23:29-31, NIV)

While pretty poetic, it foreshadows that some great suffering is going to happen - which it did, about 40 years later, and is described on Eusebius's book, "The History of the Church: From Christ to Constantine"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140445358/102-0123647-4724959?v=glance

And as far as Jesus being God? Well, he did claim to be God, that's why everybody wanted him killed in the first place.

And if Jesus wasn't really God, then, well, he lied. And why in the world would he do that? Why would he pretend to be God, especially if he knew he could be ostracized and punished for it? It doesn't even fit his character - you yourself said it was in his character to do good. Why he, being of good character, lie?

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/trilemma.html

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - hoping to get more done over the holidays . . .

quote:

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I'm really intrigued by this 'cash-in-with-Christ' thing. So you're saying that I can set fire to stray dogs, run over homeless people, and shoot at nuns, and still get out of jail scot-free, thanks to my friend the J-man? Like, if I was in a shootout, and I just blasted like six cops, but I took a hit, and I was gonna die, and chickened out and truly repented, lol man that is soooooo cheap, you should have to believe for like a minimum of ten years or something. I mean, bin Laden's cave could be collapsing, and then "yo my bad about September Eleventh" BINGO I'm talking harps and clouds for all time, smooth move Osama. DAMN that's cheap, Jesus should at least be able to initiate them into heaven with a paddling or something, come on he deserves better than shaking hands with Hitler.

---

as somebody else said, its not Cheap, for it cost God everything to show his love in this way, but i understand your warning, but first of all its seen through a comparision of sin in the human eyes, you see hitlers, and osamas sins are much greater than yours , but thats like comparing inches, saying your sin is only 20 inches, while osamas is thousands, but in the light of the standard of God's righteousness, which would be millions and millions of miles, the difference of a few inches is nothing, sin is sin, and all sin requires the redemption that only Christ can give. Such people who may repent on their deathbed, will be saved, but the bible says "as like one who escapes through the fire". YOu may think, how could God do this? well He loves people, and wishes that NONE would perish, many have view that God WANTS to punish people, but he doesn't.. He is a just God, so he has to bring justice, but it brings him NO PLEASURE in punishing people. God would rejoice if hitler had turned to him, but the problem is 'death conversions' often aren't that common, because God warns to turn to him before its too late, and that 'too lateness' is not him taking away the option, but rather the hardening of a persons heart - so often a person lets their heart to be so hardened that they will stay in prideful rebellion against God and never soften to his love.

b.t.w cheese, since you are reading the bible did you take up my challenge to read JOHN, ROMANS and JAMES?

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

quote:

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Hmm guess I did read something. Why would Osama prey to your (our societies') God, we've been through this, his beliefs don't fit with yours or mine. I understand that it was just an example, but now we see you stupider than we did before we read that post. He obviously didn't do it because he planned to repent his sins once he got eased on. He did it because he believed that the world trade center was a evil symbol to his people's culture.

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First off, seeing someone as stupid just cause you don't understand what they are talking about is not good practice. And it shows me just how closed-minded you really are.

Jesus is not a product of Western Civilization. The Bible comes from the middle east. And was written by about 40 individuals under the inspiration of God, over the process of about 1500 years. Jesus is not only our societies God. He is the Almighty God of the world, and of all creation. He is not held within the boarderlines of any society or culture. Overseas many former Muslims, followers of Hindu, and even those in China; thousands of those people come to faith in Jesus Christ everyday. Actually in China I've heard from a reliable source that over a period of time a few months ago, 100,000's were coming to faith in Christ per day!!!

Okay, now back to my post earlier, I'll try to explain this better to you. I was saying that it would be possible for even someone like Osama Bin Laden to turn to the One and true God (Jesus Christ), and repent of his sins and accept God's forgiveness before it's too late. I understand that it wasn't Osamas plan to repent to Christ after killing those people on that horrible day in Sep. 2001, for that is not true repentance. But today, even his dark heart can be transformed by the ever shining light that illuminates from the risen Christ. Even he, Osama Bin Laden can be saved.

Also, if someone was planning repentance later or something (or trying to trick God in some way); then you must understand that you can't fool God. He knows your heart even better than you do, and He'd know of all the future sins being plotted in it. He won't forgive a lying heart.

Like I said earlier, Christianity is different than all religions on the planet, a major difference is that you never heard anything about Buddah, Muhammad, or Confucius before they were born, not a lick. But the coming Messiah, Jesus was prophesied all the way through the old testament, and with very detailed accounts of his life, ministry and his death. More than 300 times.

Cheese,

quote:

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But it's weird to put a math equation on Jesus, I mean, it was in his character to do good. I don't see how it's like super-unlikely-quarter-scenario chance of Jesus doing a bunch of good deeds, or whatever prophecies you were talking about.

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It's probably hard for you to see this as the remarkable fulfilment that it is, because you have seen the fulfillment before the prophecies. Remember the prophecies were written hundreds-- some even thousands of years before His birth. Jesus did the 'good deeds' and the incredible actions because He was the fulfillment of the prophecies. The probability for those prophecies to randomly happen through one man are out of this world.

There are many prophecies that have come to fulfillment before our very eyes. One of the major ones happened in 1948. Israel became a nation. Never before in the history of mankind has a nation been destroyed, it's people scattered throughout the world, and then be reborn. Think about it. For nearly 2,000 years the nation of Israel did not exist, not until 1948. And now the Jewish people still have their culture, their identity, and their language. Many thought that this was impossible, until it happened.

Do you believe that Jesus did what the Bible says? Do you believe that He was born to die for you? Do you believe that He rose from the dead? (Which is a historical fact btw.) If not then I challenge you to do so, I understand that you are reading the bible. But I challenge you to look at it in a way other than trying to make it not make sense. Why turn away the very thing that can set you free? Believing in Christ is not becoming like anyone else. You don't have to walk, talk, eat, and act like us! God takes who you are, and adds Himself to the mix, and the result is a new creature born from above. Like what my sig. says below, Christians know that this has happened to them. And I hope that one day you will too.

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I wanna die
And let You give
Your Life to me
So that I might live

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited January 31, 2005).]

Cobra:
1. Laws and rules are of little use if you do not have the emotions (morals, in this case) to follow them. Murderers probably don't have many morals. Good people wouldn't start slicing and dicing each other just because their laws disappeared.
2. Aha, education is like my religion, but the way we are taught (pace of the slowest kids in class) is lame. And, many of the things we are taught, such as the poem I mentioned, are quite useless. Keep in mind that I'm in Grade 11 and there is no lack of idiots in this grade.
3. Oh give me a break, there's always great sufferings on the way.
4. I'm not saying he lied, but if he did, it would certainly help to attract a lot of followers. Which would be a good thing, cause his followers would become good people.

Klumsy: I'm reading it in order.

Brandon:
1. Uh, you challenge me to believe that He was born to die for me? Pfft well then, I challenge you not to! Ha!
2. How is the idea of Jesus coming back to life a historical fact? Proof?
3. I'm not reading it to try to make it sound stupid. It's not my fault if some of the stuff doesn't make sense.

"God takes who you are, and adds Himself to the mix, and the result is a new creature born from above." - Brandon
Actually, as our older cells are replaced by new ones, we are replaced by a newer version of ourself! You aren't the same person as the one in your memories, but you've got them for reference, at least. Nothing special about us. If you want, tell yourself you have a unique and precious soul crafted especially for you by the man with the plan!

What gave us our emotions? Random atoms "desired" to care about other random atoms? Just little neurons. Of course, neurons can't think either. They can't give you curiosity either. What allows you to think? It's not near as simple as you are trying to make it. It's amazing how so many random things happen that statistically would never happen. Such as every theory on the beginning of everything. I mean, when you think about it, yes, you can't prove any of them, but can you expect any person with a sound mind to believe it all just fell into place? Besides, where did the "stuff" that created everything come from?

As to the forgiveness thing, yes, you have to truly repent, but in the situations you pointed out it wouldn't be true repentence. You can argue it is, but if they had been doing those things, the odds are they wouldn't be truthfully wanting a relationship with Christ. There are two parts, asking for forgiveness and asking Christ into your heart.

Well, reading through your comments you made to other people is quite interesting.

1. You can ask about things in the Bible without sounding sarcastic and rude. It is possible. Just say, hey, this doesn't make sense.

2.It is fine to read it in order, I never did, I found it easier to jump around a little. Also, if you have a life application Bible it gives you footnotes to help understand ideas, concepts, and things based off of the time period.

3.I believe there are quite a few idiots in your grade.

4. What incentive would there be to be good if there were no laws? People as a society would revert into an unruly mass. Even good people, when confronted by people who would hurt them or challenge them, will become the necessary evil to stop them. I doubt the human race would last very long without laws and rules.

5. I agree with Cobra on the lying issue. People don't willing submit themselves to crucifixion and prior suffering just to have a following of "good" people. There had to be an ulterior motive, and there was.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

quote:

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1. Laws and rules are of little use if you do not have the emotions (morals, in this case) to follow them. Murderers probably don't have many morals. Good people wouldn't start slicing and dicing each other just because their laws disappeared.

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Alas, history has shown us otherwise. In lawless situations, the borderline cases really stand out - people who, under law, would probably do nothing much more than steal a candy bar, might do something a lot more serious without the law. Greed and lust for power also takes over. Never underestimate the power of greed. Most of the time, anarchies split up and become dictatorships. I have never heard of a truly stable anarchy.

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2. Aha, education is like my religion, but the way we are taught (pace of the slowest kids in class) is lame. And, many of the things we are taught, such as the poem I mentioned, are quite useless. Keep in mind that I'm in Grade 11 and there is no lack of idiots in this grade.

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Granted, our education isn't the best, but it's not quite useless (yet). And poetry is an art - it's there for you to enjoy. In any case, I'm sure your school is teaching quite useful stuff such as Algebra.

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3. Oh give me a break, there's always great sufferings on the way.

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You wanted an example, I gave one. Too bad you weren't really telling the truth - you don't really care about fulfilling prophecies or anything of the sort.

And I believe Max addressed #4 you gave to me.

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - hoping to get more done over the holidays . . .

quote:

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Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
Brandon:
1. Uh, you challenge me to believe that He was born to die for me? Pfft well then, I challenge you not to! Ha!

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Hmm. I'm not sure you really thought that statement through. You have a sort of chicken-egg argument there I think. But hey, it sounds like a good retort.

And as for reading the Bible in order - it isn't completely written that way. The Bible is written in sections, and several parts overlap. You'd really have to view the historical timeline of events to see the correlation with this...or at least have some real understanding of history to make those connections. If you look for it you will find it; some Bibles have them, along with other useful reference material.

I really didn't think that you were that uhh... 'special'. 1st off. Biology isn't too into the whole atom thing, more of a chemistry thing so advance that **** . Plus I never said that they think for themselves, I said that everything strives for balance. Which in no way apperently stated free thinking of tiny particles. Advanced bio will get you no where on the atomic level for the most part. I learned of that crap in like the 4th grade so its not that advanced. Ask small children, some, hopefully most (based on the education system of where you're from) will be able to tell you that the universe wants a perfect balance. I can't pick a much better word to describe that without making one up that somehow means the same thing without you making up that it has thoughts

Brandon chump:

I guess "stupid" would be the wrong word that I used to describe you, to stop your whining I'll just call you 'blinded'.

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Jesus is f'ing metal!

[This message has been edited by CapnStank (edited February 03, 2005).]

I'm not positive but Max might be making a basic ID argument by implying that your statements have the common logical fallacy of giving a guiding intelligence to a natural force. This error mostly occurs when discussing biological evolution and is common even among scientists who should know better. Natural selection, for example, is a system with variables which often ends in a certain result but often times scientists will talk about it "choosing", which implies intelligence.

Also, you're thinking of the anthropic principle.

[This message has been edited by Gump (edited February 03, 2005).]

I'd suggest you read 'How Brains Think'. Our brains are not simple, and don't try telling me that I said so. Neurons = important.

I agree, we can't prove any of our creation theories - including God. So why believe in any one specific theory? Back to the apple scenario - you don't know what color your apple is, so why just invent a color for it?

The situations I pointed out show how someone of extreme evil could repent and still be accepted into Heaven, according to Christianity.

Okay, here's one of the things that doesn't make sense to me: Curing a house of the plague, kill one bird, dip a live bird in it's blood, and wash the walls of the house with the bloodied live bird, then let it go, yeah, remember when you guys were telling me how the Bible lays down all the basic rules for medicine? How many forms of animal cruelty can they cram into these pages...

There are quite a few idiots in any grade, I suppose, but hopefully there won't be as many in university. Oh, and I'm not one of 'em, so ha.

Alright, I live in a village of about 250 people. If our government legalized murder, life in our community would go on as it had before, because we're friends, and there aren't very many idiots here. Well, there aren't very many criminals, I mean (yes, some criminals aren't idiots, but most are). I think the personality matters more than the laws which are supposed to regulate our actions - if a burglar breaks in and comes at me with a knife, the last thing on our minds will be laws and legal consequences. The unique personal preferences of a person will affect their actions more than any law. Laws will help to maintain order, but desperate people will listen to no one but themselves.

Bah, the poems we read are lame, but yes, math and science are sweet.

Specific prophecies are cool, maybe you have some for me, but like, you know how so-called 'psychics' can make their predictions for someone sound realistic by making them sound very general? "In February, you will find your personal decisions affecting the lives around you." Well yeah (I just made that one up, but that's the kind of BS I've heard them spewing, hell - just look at horoscopes, blech). Saying there is a great tragedy in our future is like saying 'things will go on as usual'.

Aw man, RAMBLE. Kay, summary time, drink Duff Beer it's the only way, I say the OOONLY way, break down - kff chff bff!
1. Personification is cool, but don't take it literally.
2. We can't prove anything, so why believe anything specific when we have no idea? Let us learn for ourselves, and not jump to conclusions. OPEN MINDS!
3. Our brains are complex. Neurons help us think. Neurons are in brains.
4. Anyone, even Osama or Hitler, can repent, in your system. Unlikely, but possible. I was using them as personified evil.
5. Animal cruelty is the fad of Moses' time, what's the deal with that?
6. Idiots are present in all generations, and their main goal seems to be to produce as many equally idiotic offspring as possible. They don't think deeply.
7. Laws (or just some common sense, for the non-idiots) are useful for maintaining order in a usual day. When a fight breaks out, the consequences are forgotten. Basically, laws are needed to keep idiots in line. Smart people can be violent or untrustworthy, too, but smart people are rare, and smart criminals are more rare. Therefore, idiots should be lured on to a cruise ship destined for the ends of the Earth, and the remaining smart people can focus on stuff other than frickin'... fancy shoes, and, and... shiny colored hair... and stickers.
8. Art for entertainment, science and math for progress, progress towards what, you ask??? Knowledge is power!
9. Vague prophecies are lame.

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Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
Well, since you don't understand it, like, magnets are attracted to The situations I pointed out show how someone of extreme evil could repent and still be accepted into Heaven, according to Christianity.

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Jerusalem to Be Inhabited
24 "This is what the LORD says-
your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:
I am the LORD ,
who has made all things,
who alone stretched out the heavens,
who spread out the earth by myself,
[b]
25 who foils the signs of false prophets
and makes fools of diviners,
who overthrows the learning of the wise
and turns it into nonsense,
26 who carries out the words of his servants
and fulfills the predictions of his messengers,
who says of Jerusalem, 'It shall be inhabited,'
of the towns of Judah, 'They shall be built,'
and of their ruins, 'I will restore them,'
27 who says to the watery deep, 'Be dry,
and I will dry up your streams,'
28 who says of Cyrus, 'He is my shepherd
and will accomplish all that I please;
he will say of Jerusalem, "Let it be rebuilt,"
and of the temple, "Let its foundations be laid." '

Isaiah 45

1 "This is what the LORD says to his anointed,
to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of
to subdue nations before him
and to strip kings of their armor,
to open doors before him
so that gates will not be shut:
2 I will go before you
and will level the mountains [a] ;
I will break down gates of bronze
and cut through bars of iron.

3 I will give you the treasures of darkness,
riches stored in secret places,

so that you may know that I am the LORD ,
the God of Israel, who summons you by name.
4 For the sake of Jacob my servant,
of Israel my chosen,
I summon you by name
and bestow on you a title of honor,
though you do not acknowledge me.

5 I am the LORD , and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me,
6 so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
men may know there is none besides me.
I am the LORD , and there is no other.
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD , do all these things.
8 "You heavens above, rain down righteousness;
let the clouds shower it down.
Let the earth open wide,
let salvation spring up,
let righteousness grow with it;
I, the LORD , have created it.
9 "Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker,
to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
'What are you making?'
Does your work say,
'He has no hands'?
10 Woe to him who says to his father,
'What have you begotten?'
or to his mother,
'What have you brought to birth?'
11 "This is what the LORD says-
the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker:
Concerning things to come,
do you question me about my children,
or give me orders about the work of my hands?
12 It is I who made the earth
and created mankind upon it.
My own hands stretched out the heavens;
I marshaled their starry hosts.

13 I will raise up Cyrus in my righteousness:
I will make all his ways straight.
He will rebuild my city
and set my exiles free,
but not for a price or reward,
says the LORD Almighty."

And it came true, God did raise up cyrus and he took over nations including babylon. God called him by name 150 years beforehand, giving alot of specifics, including a mandate of why and what he was to do (and indeed he helped the exciles to go back to israel and rebuilt (just as God prophecied beforehand would happen after 70 years of captivity in babylon (profesied BEFORE the babylonian invasion (at the time the jews scoffed those prophets saying it would never happen, yet they indeed were captured, and taken away as captives, but here as God promised ahead of time, they were returned, by the graces of a King whom God called by name, 150 years before the fact. Not to go into details of other prophecies sounding this event - the writing on the wall the day before cyrus came into babylon and other such things..

then how about daniel not only intpretting Nebachezzer's dream, but actually knowing it in great detail.. (not to mention the fact that it showed in great detail what is now history (the fall of babylon, rise of persia, then greece then rome.), not to mention some of daniels other prophecies, which though slightly cypric have a HUGe amount of detail that shows exactly what happened with teh different kingdoms after alexander the great and the kings and the wars between them, in amazing detail when you line it up to history.

or say in a book you've already read, the dreams intpreted by joseph of phaoroah that predicted accurately the abundance for 7 years and drought etc. One can go on and on and on, and without a shadow of the doubt there are prophecies that are predicted in the bible that were absolutely fufilled.

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

I agreed about how we can not prove any of the beginning theories. I simply said that I find it easier to believe in a greater being than an accident.

Cap'n, I've got nothing to say, I thought we were out of middle school. Calling people names and stuff is beneath me, and I thought it was beneath you as well. I guess not, eh? I'm glad you think I'm special, we all are. Biology does deal will atoms, the chemistry part of it! I just advanced that junk. I also don't believe you learned it in 4th grade.

Cheese
Since you've stated that about atoms, what were you argueing?

How brains think, eh? That will have no bearing on my life, maybe I should read it and be sarcastic about it and try to make you look bad, but I won't.

If there are no laws, your community would fall apart in days. Something may happen, a small infraction, and with nothing to happen, a dispute breaks out and people start taking out others. Plus, cities already have immoral people in them, it would only get worse.

Good examples of prophesy Klumsy.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

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The situations I pointed out show how someone of extreme evil could repent and still be accepted into Heaven, according to Christianity.

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God knows their true heart - they'd have to truly change their ways. There's no quick fix to get into heaven.

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Okay, here's one of the things that doesn't make sense to me: Curing a house of the plague, kill one bird, dip a live bird in it's blood

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Woah, woah, WHOAH . . .

*pages through Exodus*

Where in the world are you getting "dip a live bird in it's blood" from?! I don't see that anywhere.

And you forgot to address my borderline cases and greed cases with your little 250 person village. And while we're at it a multi-million person empire is much harder to manage than a 250 person village, so your illustration isn't very good in the first place.

And even then, you could have troubles - ever read "The Lord of the Flies"? Although it was a bunch of kids, I can assure you adults are often no better. Without at least local rules, even a 250 person village will become unstable.

It will also depend greatly on the personality and philosophy of the people. I've seen people who get very angry, and pretty much the only thing holding them back from outright violence is the threat of jailtime. I've also seen people who have a very apathetic view towards morals - if it weren't for the law, they'd do whatever the he** they please.

You're only addressing the extremes - yes there are a few people who will do it no matter what. However, law also helps keep the honest people honest, and helps keep greed in check.

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2. We can't prove anything, so why believe anything specific when we have no idea? Let us learn for ourselves, and not jump to conclusions. OPEN MINDS!

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I'm not just jumping blindly into my beliefs, silly. I have my reasons. You may not like them, but I have reasons nonetheless.

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7. Laws (or just some common sense, for the non-idiots) are useful for maintaining order in a usual day. When a fight breaks out, the consequences are forgotten.

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. . . and in the U.S., if they're adults, they end up in jail. I'd say most aren't going to be repeat offenders. Under an anarchy, they'd go unpunished. Most would become repeat offenders.

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - hoping to get more done over the holidays . . .

You'd be surprised what I knew in the 4th grade. I know that I knew about the desire for balance not nessassarily the whole electronegativity of different elements and all but you get my point (I hope).

I know the community that Cheese is from and believe me, its not going to fall apart without laws. Like he said, people are friends and if the government gave up on them they'd bind together and work through it. Its what the prairies do. Although the fact that it is dangerously close to a ill-mannered native reserve (not to be taken out of context). Then again, it wouldn't be his community falling apart, it'd be invading forign people ruining it for them. The way things that are run around where we are from are a lot different from the rest of North America (havn't been across the oceans to put personal experience in that).

Just to make sure we're all on the same page, you did notice the whole "250 people" part he mentioned?

I guess you posted while I was typing Cobra but...

The current method of placing people into an institute for extended periods of time doesn't work that well. I get speeches like that a lot from having to RCMP parents. People begin to become dependant on the system and commit crimes to stay in, its free food and a warm bed afterall.

Another thing to Max:

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How brains think, eh? That will have no bearing on my life, maybe I should read it and be sarcastic about it and try to make you look bad, but I won't.

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You did mention something about the pointlessness of neurons in the involvement of the brain/thinking process. I admit at least it was a vague reference back to the whole Bob thing but in my eyes a blow like that is worse than any name calling. Childish are we?

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Jesus is f'ing metal!

[This message has been edited by CapnStank (edited February 03, 2005).]

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I know the community that Cheese is from and believe me, its not going to fall apart without laws. Like he said, people are friends and if the government gave up on them they'd bind together and work through it. Its what the prairies do.

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I'd be willing to bet they establish their own set of rules/laws , and I'm quite sure that if a major crime like a murder took place, the federal government would still step in. They are not a total anarchy.

And did I mention that a 250 person village is a lot easier to control than, say, a large million population city or a multi-million population nation?

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The current method of placing people into an institute for extended periods of time doesn't work that well. I get speeches like that a lot from having to RCMP parents. People begin to become dependant on the system and commit crimes to stay in, its free food and a warm bed afterall.

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Which goes to show that CheeseStorm was in fact wrong. He seemed to be trying to persuade me that everybody who commits a crime is an extremist that will commit the crime no matter what.

These people commit the crime because they get something out of it. If your country didn't have so good living conditions in its prisons, they wouldn't commit the crime to go there. Under a complete anarchy, they might commit a crime to gain power, or because crime is the most rewarding way of life, because there is no punishment.

RCMP? (looks in online dictionary) - Royal Canadian Mounted Police?

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - hoping to get more done over the holidays . . .

quote:

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How is the idea of Jesus coming back to life a historical fact? Proof?

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First off I sense that a major reason that you don't believe is not a lack of evidence, but the lack of will to believe, or to even search for the evidence which is very obvious, and indeed overwhelming.

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THE RESURRECTION IS A FACT
Professor Thomas Arnold, for 14 years a headmaster of Rugby, author of the famous, History of Rome, and appointed to the chair of modern history at Oxford, was well acquainted with the value of evidence in determining historical facts. This great scholar said: "I have been used for many years to study the histories of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which God hath given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead." Brooke Foss Westcott, an English scholar, said: "raking all the evidence together, it is not too much to say that there is no historic incident better or more variously supported than the resurrection of Christ. Nothing but the antecedent assumption that it must be false could have suggested the idea of deficiency in the proof of it."

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Read more here:
http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html

I've come to see that the problem with atheists is not intellectual, but is a moral one. It's not logical to be an atheist. You'd have to believe that the universe arose from nothing without a cause. But life tells us a different story. Just look at your body for instance; your eyes are there for a purpose. I read a testimony of someone who used to be an atheist, read it here: http://www.ex-atheist.com/from-skepticism-to-worship.html

Actually many scientists are saying that within this century that evolution will be exposed as perhaps the greatest hoax to ever be fabricated in history. In fact this is already said by most scientist, but they haven't gone public with it yet. Look at these quotes from leading scientist and respected individuals in their profession:

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"There are only two possibilities as to how life arose; one is spontaneous generation arising to evolution, the other is a supernatural creative act of God, there is no third possibility. Spontaneous generation that life arose from non-living matter was scientifically disproved 120 years ago by Louis Pasteur and others. That leaves us with only one possible conclusion, that life arose as a creative act of God. I will not accept that philosophically because I do not want to believe in God, therefore I choose to believe in that which I know is scientifically impossible, spontaneous generation arising to evolution."

(Dr. George Wald, evolutionist, Professor Emeritus of Biology at the University at Harvard, Nobel Prize winner in Biology.)

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"Evolution [is] a theory universally accepted not because it can be proven by logically coherent evidence to be true, but because the only alternative, special creation, is clearly incredible."

(Professor D.M.S. Watson, leading biologist and science writer of his day.)

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"My attempts to demonstrate evolution by an experiment carried on for more than 40 years have completely failed.....It is not even possible to make a caricature of an evolution out of paleobiological facts...The idea of an evolution rests on pure belief."

(Dr. Nils Heribert-Nilsson, noted Swedish botanist and geneticist, of Lund University)

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"Scientists who go about teaching that evolution is a fact of life are great con-men, and the story they are telling may be the greatest hoax ever! In explaining evolution we do not have one iota of fact."

(Dr. Newton Tahmisian, Atomic Energy Commission.)

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"250,000 species of plants and animals recorded and deposited in museums throughout the world did not support the gradual unfolding hoped for by Darwin."

(Dr. David Raup, curator of geology at the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago, "Conflicts Between Darwinism and Paleontology")

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"The pathetic thing about it is that many scientists are trying to prove the doctrine of evolution, which no science can do."

(Dr. Robert A. Milikan, physicist and Nobel Prize winner, speech before the American Chemical Society.)

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"The miracles required to make evolution feasible are far greater in number and far harder to believe than the miracle of creation."

(Dr. Richard Bliss, former professor of biology and science education as Christian Heritage College, "It Takes A Miracle For Evolution.")

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"Scientists at the forefront of inquiry have put the knife to classical Darwinism. They have not gone public with this news, but have kept it in their technical papers and inner counsels."

(Dr. William Fix, in his book, "The Bone Peddlers.")

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"A growing number of respectable scientists are defecting from the evolutionist camp.....moreover, for the most part these "experts" have abandoned Darwinism, not on the basis of religious faith or biblical persuasions, but on strictly scientific grounds, and in some instances, regretfully."

(Dr. Wolfgang Smith, physicist and mathematician)

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"The probability of life originating from accident is comparable to the probability of the unabridged dictionary resulting from an explosion in a printing shop."

(Dr. Edwin Conklin, evolutionist and professor of biology at Princeton University.)

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"Evolution is a fairy tale for grown-ups. This theory has helped nothing in the progress of science. It is useless."

(Prof. Louis Bounoure, Director of Research, National Center of Scientific Research.)

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"9/10 of the talk of evolution is sheer nonsense not founded on observation and wholly unsupported by fact. This Museum is full of proof of the utter falsity of their view."

(Dr. Ethredge, British Museum of Science.)

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"It (evolution) is sustained largely by a propaganda campaign that relies on all the usual tricks of rhetorical persuasion: hidden assumptions, question-begging statements of what is at issue, terms that are vaguely defined and change their meaning in midargument, attacks of straw men, selective citation of evidence, and so on. The theory is also protected by its cultural importance. It is the officially sanctioned creation story to modern society, and publicly funded educational authorities spare no effort to persuade people to believe it."

(Professor Phillip Johnson, "Objections Sustained: Subversive Essays on Evolution, Law and Culture," pg. 9)

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"Evolution can be thought of as sort of a magical religion. Magic is simply an effect without a cause, or at least a competent cause. 'Chance,' 'time,' and 'nature,' are the small gods enshrined at evolutionary temples. Yet these gods cannot explain the origin of life. These gods are impotent. Thus, evolution is left without competent cause and is, therefore, only a magical explanation for the existence of life..."

(Dr. Randy L. Wysong, instructor of human anatomy and physiology, The Creation-Evolution Controversy, pg. 418.)

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It's only a matter of time before the truth comes to the forefront. You can read more on that article here: http://www.myfortress.org/evolution.html

God wants you to believe, but will you? Have you brushed this off as nothing? If so then something is holding you back. Surely it can't be your intellect... what is it then?

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I wanna die
And let You give
Your Life to me
So that I might live

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited February 04, 2005).]

Many of these God-fearing scientists have worked at NASA over the years. I know this because a friend of mine used to be the director of one of the departments (he retired/quit in the early 90s after Congress cut funding to what he considered to be unsafe levels; proper maintenance inspections couldn't be done). In fact, if you've ever watched a documentary on the Apollo days you've probably seen my friend.

Unfortunately, many of them believed in evolution precisely because they never questioned otherwise (including my friend for most of his adult life). Most were physicists, astronomers, etc. and they just assumed the biologists knew what they were talking about. Naturalistic philosophers have been very astute in convincing many that their philosophy is science. Then again, famous scientists like Von Braun considered the idea that the universe came about by a random process to be ludicrous. Despite there being a good number of theistic evolutionists there was very few atheists in NASA for many years.

[This message has been edited by Gump (edited February 04, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Gump (edited February 04, 2005).]

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Jesus is f'ing metal!

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how do you not know what the RCMP is?

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Probably because I never really paid attention to Canada . And I've never really been good with acronyms.

quote:

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MN I'm guessing is a state

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Oh, the irony .

MN = Minnesota, and yes, it's a state .

------------------
"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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Oh, and any community, no matter of who or how many would fall under anarchy. All it would take is one accident. Just because the neighborhood "seems" nice or you think it wouldn't fall, doesn't mean it wouldn't. I agree wholeheartidly on this issue with Cobra.

BTW, does RCMP mean Royal Canadien Mounted Police? Or were you just kidding?

------------------
* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

Max:
1. You finished talking to Stank and then just said 'Cheese Since you've stated that about atoms, what were you argueing?' I've talked about atoms plenty, what do you want to hear about?
2. How would 'How Brains Think' have no bearing on your life? You'd learn about how your own brain works! If you want to be sarcastic and try to make me look bad based on this book, go ahead, I have no idea how you'd pull that off.
3. Your only job here seems to be supporting others who make good points, while producing nothing of your own, besides whining. Don't need to repeat things that have just been said and heard by all.

Cobra:
1. Yes, truly repent, that's what I said.
2. "And he shall take to cleanse the house two birds"
"And he shall kill the one of the birds"
"And he shall take the cedar wood, and the hyssop, and the scarlet, and the living bird, and dip them in the blood of the slain bird"
"And he shall cleanse the house with the blood of the bird, and with the running water, and with the living bird"
Leviticus 14, it's all good stuff.
3. Maybe we can reach some middle ground. A)People who commit crimes regardless of laws, B)people who don't commit crimes because of the laws, and C)people who wouldn't commit the crimes anyway. Like/dislike my theory?
4. Nuh uh, my village hasn't established it's own set of rules. And I don't think the federal government would step in over a murder, that's for like, local jurisdiction and whatnot.

Brandon:
1. "First off I sense that a major reason that you don't believe is not a lack of evidence, but the lack of will to believe, or to even search for the evidence which is very obvious, and indeed overwhelming."
That's BS. The major reason I don't believe in the resurrection is that the only people who saw Jesus in zombie-mode were his best friends who truly believed he was the son of God, and they said he flew away, before anyone else could see him.
2. "I've come to see that the problem with atheists is not intellectual, but is a moral one. It's not logical to be an atheist."
BS #2. I know what it's like to be an atheist, and we don't just wake up in the morning and say 'Oh, how I hate the idea of God!' And our eyes are for sensing light, even those amoeba-style creatures (well, the tiny blobs, can't remember the name) have little light-sensing cells.
3. "Actually many scientists are saying that within this century that evolution will be exposed as perhaps the greatest hoax to ever be fabricated in history. In fact this is already said by most scientist, but they haven't gone public with it yet."
If they haven't gone public with it yet, how the hell would you know what 'most scientist' think? Do you know most scientists?
4. I could fill your screen with quotes from scientists who do believe in evolution... either way we won't convince each other. But I didn't waste my time, aha!

And now for my own ramble:
Successful variations survive to reproduce. It's hard to see evolution in action because it takes so bloody long! You can see how a lot of primitive creatures are extinct, except for the ones who have been virtually perfect for millions of years, such as sharks and crocs. The most successful variant will put a lot of pressure on its less advanced cousins... ever wonder what happened to the Neanderthals? MAHAHAHA WE RULE!!

"Oh, and any community, no matter of who or how many would fall under anarchy. All it would take is one accident." - Max
The bush men just work together to benefit their group. We could learn a lot from them.

I'm speaking for myself here, since other atheists will have different beliefs, but I can honestly say that my beliefs aren't emotionally or morally based. This is what it is: I don't believe in God, I don't believe that there is no God, I simply don't know. Close-minded atheists will say they "know" there is no God, close-minded spiritualists (is that even a word?) will say they "know" there is a God.

Our brains seem similar to animal ones, in that its main purpose is for survival, working together, bringing in food, etc. We're also very good at making tools and problem solving. But when it comes to the origin of the universe, we have NO FRICKIN' CLUE! When people were told that the universe came from an old wise man, the people they were probably asking were indeed, old wise men. Fast forward to our times - we still aren't much better off at picturing the creation of the universe, so why change the 'old wise man God' picture? Well, that's just my theory, you can tell me that God personally floated on down and spoke with us, but you don't know that any more than I do, since we weren't alive back then.

quote:

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4. Nuh uh, my village hasn't established it's own set of rules. And I don't think the federal government would step in over a murder, that's for like, local jurisdiction and whatnot.

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You have no rules, but you have a "local jurisdiction"? I smell a contradiction.

------------------
"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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------------------
Jesus is f'ing metal!

Here is a recent paper I found interesting:

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/0409064102v1

Minoacyl-tRNA synthetases associate each word of DNA code (codon) with its corresponding piece of a protein (amino acid), translating the DNA code into the protein code. They proofread their work by differentiating between similar molecules and editing out incorrect pieces inserted by mistake.

quote:

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The genetic code is established in aminoacylation reactions catalyzed by aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases. Many aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases require an additional domain for editing, to correct errors made by the catalytic domain. A nonfunctional editing domain results in an ambiguous genetic code, where a single codon is not translated as a specific amino acid but rather as a statistical distribution of amino acids. Here, wide-ranging consequences of genetic code ambiguity in Escherichia coli were investigated with an editing-defective isoleucyl-tRNA synthetase. Ambiguity retarded cell growth at most temperatures in rich and minimal media. These growth rate differences were seen regardless of the carbon source. Inclusion of an amino acid analogue that is misactivated (and not cleared) diminished growth rate by up to 100-fold relative to an isogenic strain with normal editing function. Experiments with target-specific antibiotics for ribosomes, DNA replication, and cell wall biosynthesis, in conjunction with measurements of mutation frequencies, were consistent with global changes in protein function caused by errors of translation and not editing-induced mutational errors. Thus, a single defective editing domain caused translationally generated global effects on protein functions that, in turn, provide powerful selective pressures for maintenance of editing by aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases.

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In short, when the translator could not maintain high fidelity by editing out mistakes, crippled proteins were produced, and the organism became unable to survive. I'll let you form your own conclusions on what that means.

Other subjects you may wish to look into:
- Check out JPL's (Jet Propulsion Laboratory) Life Detection Seminar, which recently broadcasted part 3 of its presentations.
- Pleiotropy in the expression of genes; not to mention DNA in general.
- Neandertal mtDNA comparisons With Humans.
- Recent research on Neandertal morphological differences as well as teeth analysis.
- How many scientists are now favoring more and more the -tal spelling over the -thal spelling of Neandertal. Not exactly sure why since the original spelling was "Homo neanderthalensis" (meaning that is a completely different species since it's missing the sapiens) with the -thal meaning "valley," and "Neander" being a Greek version of "Neumann," the surname of the fellow who discovered the first Neandertal in a valley near Düsseldorf, Germany some time in the mid 1800's.

[This message has been edited by Gump (edited February 05, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Gump (edited February 05, 2005).]

quote:

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3. Maybe we can reach some middle ground. A)People who commit crimes regardless of laws, B)people who don't commit crimes because of the laws, and C)people who wouldn't commit the crimes anyway. Like/dislike my theory?

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Umm, you made a list. It's a good list, it lists several types of people.

. . . but a list is not a theory. What is it about these types of people you wish to theorize about?

quote:

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except for the ones who have been virtually perfect for millions of years, such as sharks and crocs.

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Define "perfect" .

quote:

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but I can honestly say that my beliefs aren't emotionally or morally based.

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We'll see about that .

quote:

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This is what it is: I don't believe in God, I don't believe that there is no God, I simply don't know.

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In other words, you don't wish to believe either way. And you probably don't want anybody to rock your boat either. You don't want to make a decision. Before I continue, am I correct about your beliefs?

------------------
"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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Hmmm, I think this whole post about "Good Points" is kinda worthless. We have two sets of people argueing their sides of what they believe or don't believe, as the case may be. Also, some people who don't know, but like to prove other people wrong, or right. Simply reading through all the posts again, I think it is time to kill this post.

I think we need to agree to disagree.

Well, continue on as you please I guess.

Cheese - In some respects you are right, I havn't made many points because I didn't think it necessary to research it.

I bid you all, a fond adieu.

------------------
* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

psalm 10:4
"In his pride the wicked does not seek him; in all his thoughts there is no room for God."

------------------
Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

[This message has been edited by klumsy (edited February 06, 2005).]

quote:

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That's BS. The major reason I don't believe in the resurrection is that the only people who saw Jesus in zombie-mode were his best friends who truly believed he was the son of God, and they said he flew away, before anyone else could see him.

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You need to study the facts. Actually he showed himself to more than 500 people. Of course they'd choose to believe. If you saw the risen Christ after seeing him killed, wouldn't you believe too? There is no other reasonable explantion for the empty tomb, other than Jesus rose from the grave.

I was at a funeral of a close relative yesterday, and I've never seen reality so clear. I realized that apart from the resurrection of Jesus Christ, that there is no hope for mankind... period. Science, technology, those are futile. Jesus is the only answer. Death is a horrible... horrible thing. After staring at death right in the face, I was thinking of how terrible and how real that it was. I've come to the conclusion that if someone's death can't get a persons attention, then the only thing left is hell.

------------------
I wanna die
And let You give
Your Life to me
So that I might live

Mkay, let the games begin...

Cobra:
My village doesn't have its own set of laws, and we'd go to the city for court if a crime took place. Didn't think this would be too confusing.

Gump:
Maybe Pumpkin Escargo(sp?) can give you my first reaction on the paper you found: "Man, I don't know what the **** you just said little kid, but yo special man, you reached down, and touched a brother's heart."

Cobra, Chapter II:
We were talking about the usefulness of laws and how they affect different people. Jesus now I have to type this out again, and yet now it's more complex, I was trying to keep it simple:
A) People who commit crimes regardless of laws (laws are useless)
B) People who don't commit crimes because of consequences (laws are useful)
C) People who wouldn't commit crimes anyway (they're just cool)

Laws depend on B) to work, I guess, A) needs to be hurled into a wood chipper, C) deserves a quiet place to work, and many wonderful prizes. Bottom line: Raaaaaarrrrrrgh.

Perfect is like, no need for improvement.

"but I can honestly say that my beliefs aren't emotionally or morally based."
"We'll see about that."
Lol... mkay. Dunno how you'll see that either way, but keep the dream alive. You're close about my beliefs, but remember, my beliefs aren't morally based (I can speak for myself). I don't believe either way, true, because neither side knows, not because I hate the idea of God or no God.

Max:
Muhahaha, you already said you'd leave, so goodbye, again.

Brandon:
Sorry for your loss, my grandpa went poof a couple months ago, but without science/technology he could've gone a lot sooner, cause he had to go in for heart or lung surgery a while ago, but medical science saved the day. Science is cooool... what is futile about it?

And to everybody:
Hmm, don't really have anything to add to the fire tonight, my head feels funny after I made some peanut butter cookie 'dough', which was a disaster, maybe some quotes.

"I only hope medical science can save me!" - Moe, after helping trash the museum.

"Hey Mr. Flanders, I see you're reading the newspaper!"
"Everything except the Opinions page! I don't need to be told what to think... by anyone living!" - Flannnnnnnders

quote:

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My village doesn't have its own set of laws, and we'd go to the city for court if a crime took place. Didn't think this would be too confusing.

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I never said it was confusing, and I am not confused. "Confusing" seems to be your scapegoat for "da**, he doesn't believe me yet." Nice try.

Laws are laws, regardless of who makes them. You are under laws - and the city enforces them.

------------------
"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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Wait how come your 'mn' is censored?

Hmm I had a new question that had a point, one sec it'll come back to me, hmm I don't think this was it, but seeing as I'm just polishing off Leviticus, it'll be a while before I get any New Testament (well I read Matthew cause my dad recommended it, and Revelations just cause it's so crrraaaazzzzy), soooo, how come God starts off all grumpy, encouraging stonings and such, but then Jesus is like 'Group hug, everybody', so did God have a change of heart, or is Jesus like a rebellious son, or what's the deal, I'm actually serious here, it's like same book, opposite...things.

I would explain it better but im tired. Anyways carry on reading that Bible CheeseStorm!!

--D-SIPL

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If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that suggests you tried

quote:

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Science is cooool... what is futile about it?

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Hey, sorry to hear about your Grandpa... Yeah, science is certainly cool. But what I mean about science being futile is that we are all gonna die one day. Science may have helped your grandpa (and my cousin, who was born with a hole in his heart) for sometime, but it didn't last forever. I know some people who are in their 70's and 80's, even some in their 90's and they all have said that their life went so fast, that it was too short. And yet, we long for something more, for something that gives us an ultimate satisfaction of some sort. Science can't do that, the universe is heading downhill. We all have an appointment with death. My cousin lived for 15 short years, and I loved him so...

There is more to life than pleasure and gain, life is indeed a gift from a Gracious and Almighty source (God!), we musn't take it for granted, for we do not know when we will be snatched away by deaths hands. Could be in 2 seconds, 20 months, or even 80 years. But still, that isn't long at all. I'm only 23, and let me tell ya. Time is flying!

quote:

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Hmm I had a new question that had a point, one sec it'll come back to me, hmm I don't think this was it, but seeing as I'm just polishing off Leviticus, it'll be a while before I get any New Testament (well I read Matthew cause my dad recommended it, and Revelations just cause it's so crrraaaazzzzy), soooo, how come God starts off all grumpy, encouraging stonings and such, but then Jesus is like 'Group hug, everybody', so did God have a change of heart, or is Jesus like a rebellious son, or what's the deal, I'm actually serious here, it's like same book, opposite...things.

---

Jesus is the Son of God, who came to save that which was lost (Mankind!). As I understand it, in the Old Testament every occurence of God is God the Son. His purpose for coming the first time was to save us, and to show us how much He loves us. But the second time He is coming back as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. And His Judgements in the end times are much worse than anything that I have ever seen in the Old Testament.

In the Old Testament, the Laws were written on stone tablets, and people were told, "do this" and "don't do this". This is because the Holy Spirit hadn't come yet to live in the hearts of those whom believed; He only came upon Kings, Prophets, and Judges (like Samson) suddenly in periods of time. But after Christ came, died, rose, and ascended into Heaven, the Holy Spirit has come, and lives in the heart of every believer. And He bears witness with us that we are indeed saved, and gives us peace in our hearts. This may not seem that impressive to unbelievers at the moment but let me try to explain. Think of this; what if God declared all wars on the planet to cease. That would be good, but it would only be a matter of time before wars started up again, this is because the condition of our hearts. God comes to a believer and He gives us peace in our hearts, and that's where it must start.

------------------
I wanna die
And let You give
Your Life to me
So that I might live

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited February 07, 2005).]

Although now that I look back I don't really know what the intent of our actions was when we all started throwing our beliefs at eachother. Meh, all I can say as that we are at the same spot as we started. I'm guessing since there's only 2 people on our side of the battle (Cheese and I) and since I know him personally (its not like he's broken down and prayed for forgiveness) so we're the same and unless we finally broke max you people are mostly the same too. Hmmmm should do that whole physics assignment due friday...

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Jesus is f'ing metal!

my 2 cents...

--D-SIPL

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"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler

I was tired of beating a dead horse, so why waste my time?

As D-SIPL said, nothing belief wise has changed, except that I have more belief in God than before. So, thanks for the posts as a whole, it has really confirmed my beliefs.

------------------
* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

quote:

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Welppp, you smelled a contradiction that wasn't there.

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You mean being under no laws, but going to the city to enforce the supposedly non-existant laws?

quote:

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Wait how come your 'mn' is censored?

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Because I never wrote "mn" in the first place, I wrote "**" .

quote:

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soooo, how come God starts off all grumpy, encouraging stonings and such, but then Jesus is like 'Group hug, everybody', so did God have a change of heart, or is Jesus like a rebellious son, or what's the deal, I'm actually serious here, it's like same book, opposite...things.

---

Not really. Jesus still pronounces judgement sometimes. Not to mention the OT and the NT have different focuses - the OT focuses on the people (who generally weren't very good), while the NT focuses on Jesus (who was perfect).

------------------
"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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quote:

---

Originally posted by CapnStank:
I stand behind science though I may no little of it in comparison to what can be known but as I see it we need it and will more so in the future.

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I don't know about the others but I've never attacked or derided science. I've only stated that your beliefs are not based in science but in a philosophy, so technically you cannot "stand behind science" on this issue.

Cobra:
-writing ** instead of just the word is really no better. Everyone knows your intention and just because you cut two of the letters and flipped them for some *'s doesn't make the intentions any better.

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Jesus is f'ing metal!

gump, n. Buttocks; rump. A dolt; a dunce.

Cause if the Church was wrong about that, what else could they be wrong about?! If humans are so special, why do they live on a hard rock orbiting an average star? Don't answer that, I'm just pointing out that the Church was like AMAGAD ppl are dissing the old-school beliefs.

Oooh, that was fine.

Man our universe is so cooooool, I was easing on some 'The Universe in a Nutshell' by Hawking, and he pretty much confirmed my kind of irregular heartbeat model, quantum type stuff messes with the big ole singularity, universe's laws are all messed up, universe dies again, we're so "lucky" to live in this one, I enjoy it so, it's interesting to think about how many universes may have came and gone before ours, and how many others may have included intelligent life thinking the same thing as this!

Bbbbbbut I also don't believe in infinity, but I dunno how something can come from nothing (then again our noobish human brains can't imagine anything close to infinity or nothingness, like dayum, they're hardly even numbers, urgh mind-fudging). Soooo that's why I don't believe anything! Ahaaaaaa.

"What existed before God, then?" is probably as common as "What existed before the first Big Bang, then?" but the Get Out of Jail Free Card is "Nothing, God made time, so it doesn't affect him". So if He's infinite, and his history is the same as his future or whatever, why did he experience "days", and why would he have need of rest with his infinite powers, very confuddling and befuddling and schmefuddling. Why does humanity have such a hard time admitting "We don't know!"

Hmm seems I left one of those lil packets of kleenexes in my pocket and bzeeeeow pants went through the wash and now all the clothes have been eased on by lil bits of white paper, sooooo talk to you later.

quote:

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but the main thing was that the Church said that Earth was the center, Church got OWWWWWNED until the hired Church goons threatened Galileo.

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a. Religious leaders are not scientists, and I agree that the leaders may have gotten a few science things wrong.

b. It's not from a Biblical source, so there's no law saying I have to agree with them .

c. Don't have much more to say, I just need a c .

quote:

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Bbbbbbut I also don't believe in infinity

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Huh? Infinity is a mathematical symbol, not a belief. It's like saying you don't believe in 5, or 1, or 1024.

quote:

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but I dunno how something can come from nothing (then again our noobish human brains can't imagine anything close to infinity or nothingness, like dayum, they're hardly even numbers, urgh mind-fudging). Soooo that's why I don't believe anything! Ahaaaaaa.

---

Hello, Houston? I think one of our forum members may be lost in orbit .

quote:

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why did he experience "days", and why would he have need of rest with his infinite powers,

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The Earth that was being created was experiencing days. Lest you forget Einstein, time is relative .

And nobody really belives he "rested" because he was tired, it was just an indication that he was finished, and a commemoration of what he had done.

quote:

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Why does humanity have such a hard time admitting "We don't know!"

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Because, unlike you, my beliefs don't rest totally with science? Because I don't need to go and tie up every logical end to believe in something? Because I believe the wind exists, even though I cannot see it? Because I beleieve China exists, even though I have never been there myself? Because I believe stars are hot balls of gas like the sun, even though we've only seen the sun, and only done spectral analysis of the stars? Because I believe atoms exist, even though I will never be rich enough to buy a Scanning Tunneling Microscope to prove it to myself?

If I were to only believe in what I could directly prove, there would be little, if anything, I could truly believe in.

------------------
"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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[This message has been edited by CobraA1 (edited February 12, 2005).]

quote:

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Having now experienced that oh-so-dastardly public-education-teaching-thing of Galileo mentioned by Gump, I'm still backing up Galileo, sure he was wrong in claiming that planets had circular orbits, but the main thing was that the Church said that Earth was the center, Church got OWWWWWNED until the hired Church goons threatened Galileo.
Cause if the Church was wrong about that, what else could they be wrong about?! If humans are so special, why do they live on a hard rock orbiting an average star? Don't answer that, I'm just pointing out that the Church was like AMAGAD ppl are dissing the old-school beliefs.

---

you are right, despite that fact that gallileo wasn't so wise in the exercising of his ego and pride, and that rubbed the wrong way with people (as such a thing always does), the catholic church was wrong, in its assumptions, but really with the bulk of catholic doctrine, this is the LEAST thing that is wrong. But this arguement has nothing against Christ nor his teachings nor Christianity, but just an example of typical human nature, and systems of religion (for religion in essence is Mans attempt to reach God or the devine, based on mans rules, mans interpretations, mans motives, compared to Christianity, which is based on God reaching out to man but thats a whole post in itself) but anyway it doesn't show anything about Christianity, for in essence if these catholics knew there bible they'd know such things, as well that the earth isn't flat etc etc, but they were holding onto man's systems and traditions, not the gospel, in fact for generations and generations, the catholic church did not ALLOW people to have a bible, if you had one without permission of the authority, you could be killed. Its funny how something can be twisted to be completed different from what it came from, yet still have the same label, then people build their worldview from such prejudiced presumptions, i suppose in a simlar way to somebody who may have had their house robbed by a negro (or maybe heard a rumour of a distant second cousin who had) is racist against all negros calling them all theives, no gooders etc etc..
Honest study of the teachings of Christ and his Word however is light, that will show up such misunderstandings and wrong preconceptions.

------------------
Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

------------------
I wanna die
And let You give
Your Life to me
So that I might live

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited February 12, 2005).]

I will comment on some other erroneous statements:

1. Actually, the prevailing viewpoint at this time is that our solar system is extremely privileged and not average at all. Your statement is largely based upon the popularization of Sagan's assertions through his documentaries, many of which have been proven false by scientific evidence. Cosmological fine-tuning discussed:

http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/jo urnal/v431/n7008/full/431519b_r.html&filetype=&dynoptions=

quote:

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Thus, some of us wake up in the middle of the night worrying that the discovery of dark energy may put cosmology on the same footing as particle physics, with all of the data that have come in over the years pointing consistently to exactly the same set of cosmic parameters, but without revealing any smoking-guns that could direct us to a fundamental theoretical rationale for why the data take these values. I have even made a bet with physicists Stephen Hawking and Frank Wilczek that this will happen (then, even if my worst nightmare turns out to be true, I will at least get a few bottles of wine out of the bargain).

---

If I remember correctly Hawking briefly mentioned in passing losing that bet some time last year.

2. In Hawking's own words, many of the far-reaching theories put forth in his book cannot be proven. Hawking has been working for years on creating a functional mathematical that allows a self-creating universe, but so far has failed. Basically it is a speculative book that explores various possibilities. BTW, several of the basic predictions of M-Theory/String Theory will be tested in 2007 at CERN.

3. The Cyclic cannot work according to evidence. It has been confirmed that the expansion rate of spacetime is increasing faster than gravity due to dark energy acting as an accelerant.

4. Check out the Modified Newtonian Dynamics (MOND) which deals with dark matter.

[This message has been edited by Gump (edited February 12, 2005).]

But in the long run, Galileo still pwnd. Man their orbits would look so weird to revolve around the Earth.

Mmmyes but no one's ever seen infinity, and it's impossible to imagine... it comes up in math a lot but does it come up in nature? Hmmm..

What I meant was, I can't imagine infinity, and I can't imagine something coming from nothing (finity), so I don't know which to believe in. Hmm actually infinity is probably pretty close to this MSN installer's estimated time remaining chugging along at 28.8kbps. If I had to pick a creation scenario, finite vs. infinite, I'm guessing there's some sort of fool-proof law that cancels out nothingness (perhaps used only once, ever??), sooo maybe everything is potentially infinite, but I really have no idea. We'll be gods ourselves before answering this question, we have enough trouble predicting our weather at this point in time.

Eek, this goes back to About BOB, on how the Bible is so open to interpretation... like, when a stupid atheist like myself reads 'and he took a day off to rest' I assume that it means 'he took a day off to rest', but I guess it turns out he was just commemorating what he had done, to himself, I seeee.

Believing in the wind, or in China (although China's existence is perhaps the greatest hoax of all time) is a bit different from believing we know where the universe came from. We gotta solve a few more pieces of the puzzle before assuming we already know what the end-picture is going to look like.

If you have no problem going against the old-school Church teachings and agreeing with Galileo, is there something in the Bible against evolution? I mean, we can get new organisms by cross-breeding plants and animals and genetic engineering and whatnot, in much less time than evolution takes. I've only read a bit of the Bibbly, so is there some part where God's like "This is how many animals there are, no more."?

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Galileo: lololol pwnz u
Church: wtf n00b
Galileo: lolololol
Church *goons*
Galileo: wtf h4x turn em off

But in the long run, Galileo still pwnd. Man their orbits would look so weird to revolve around the Earth.

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LOL I give you props! You have a huge sense of humor!

K, first off Galileo believed in the Christian God, and it was the University Professors who were threatened with Galileo's ideas. And may I note that these same professors were deep into the Greek scientific method, in which observation was included to a small extent. To make a long story short; in their theories, the entire universe had been developed apart from actual observations of the universe! Which lead them to develop ideas of the moon being perfectly smooth and shining it's own light, and they also thought that only the earth had a moon. But Galileo's telescope quickly put these ideas to rest, and the professors decided to make it a religious controversy instead of what it was at first, simply an academic one.

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What I meant was, I can't imagine infinity, and I can't imagine something coming from nothing (finity), so I don't know which to believe in.

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Yeah that's quite the concept to grasp huh? It actually takes more faith to believe that God doesn't exist and hasn't created the universe than to believe the alternative. Current scienctific study leans much towards the existance of a Creator God.

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Eek, this goes back to About BOB, on how the Bible is so open to interpretation... like, when a stupid atheist like myself reads 'and he took a day off to rest' I assume that it means 'he took a day off to rest', but I guess it turns out he was just commemorating what he had done, to himself, I seeee.

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This hasn't been done by mistake, God wanted the Bible written this way to 'confound the wise'. If you read the Bible with an open heart then you can see what it's really saying. But going in with the idea that it's already false... well... you know.

Read this article about someone who was in a similar situation:
http://ex-atheist.com/from-skepticism-to-worship.html

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If you have no problem going against the old-school Church teachings and agreeing with Galileo, is there something in the Bible against evolution? I mean, we can get new organisms by cross-breeding plants and animals and genetic engineering and whatnot, in much less time than evolution takes. I've only read a bit of the Bibbly, so is there some part where God's like "This is how many animals there are, no more."?

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No I have no problem at all going against the Roman Catholic teachings. God is the source of Truth, a group of religious leaders are not. And the Bible is the Word of God, not of man. Actually as I stated earlier Galileo was a Christian himself, it wasn't the Bible that disagreed with him, but it was the Roman Catholic Church. No, there isn't anything in the Bible that directly says 'evolution is false'. Macro evolution is simply a product of the imagination, not at all backed by current scientific study. Even the cross-breeding and genetic engineering takes human intelligence. It did not randomly happen.

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I wanna die
And let You give
Your Life to me
So that I might live

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited February 12, 2005).]

Whoaaa my statements are based on Sagan's documentaries, but I dunno who Sagan is. First I thought you tried to say Satan, but ah yes cosmological fine-tuning. That's why we're "lucky", cause say we've got our repeating universe thingy, poof deformed lifeless universe poof deformed lifeless universe poof just right (after many tries) yaaay.

"In Hawking's own words, many of the far-reaching theories put forth in his book cannot be proven." Well, they wouldn't just be theories then, if they could be proven.

Our solar system is rare as life goes, but everyone was like 'aaagh so we're not specially chosen for the center of all!'

Mhm Galileo was Catholic style, so torture + excommunication had him sold in no time.

"Current scienctific study leans much towards the existance of a Creator God." Ahhh that's an awesome point to make, well I dunno about the evidence of God part, but 'a Creator God', emphasis on 'a'. I mean, even if there was a Creator in the beginning, it's funny that we have sooooo many different Creators, as mere mortals it's stupid in my opinion to think we know which one is right, when likely anything we can imagine or believe in will be so far off the mark. I'm talking globally here, so many frickin' religions, all of 'em are right, yuppp.

Whoa upper block HUA ahh deflected that, could've sworn someone was gonna be like "MAAAH Don't call Christianity a religion!" Fine, I won't, but you believe in a God, set of beliefs that come with him, like turn the other cheek or whatever.

Blech kay back to evolution again, if you have a mutation, and it survives to reproduce, isn't that evolution right there? Successful variants and whatnot? Now you're going to ask me for a three-eyed fish as evidence. In theory though, isn't that right, new mutants and their kids?

Oh yeah, question here, if all you have to do to get in heaven is believe in Jesus, what if I spent fifty years rescuing orphaned children, helping the elderly, and feeding people who have no arms, would the toll booth guy at the Pearly Gates still just launch me to Hell for not believing in God? If so, I'm done here.

*edit*
I just read that 'atheist turns Christian' thing at your link. I still see things the way he used to, with a robotic perpspective, but my emotions keep me from becoming too serious about it. Still, I'd trade my emotions for the secrets of the universe in a heartbeat, something you'd probably call selling my soul. Mahahaha, and if I ever need mental reassurance, Taoism is the way to go.

[This message has been edited by CheeseStorm (edited February 13, 2005).]

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Oh yeah, question here, if all you have to do to get in heaven is believe in Jesus, what if I spent fifty years rescuing orphaned children, helping the elderly, and feeding people who have no arms, would the toll booth guy at the Pearly Gates still just launch me to Hell for not believing in God? If so, I'm done here.

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I think you're missing the entire point. No good thing that you do can earn you salvation. No giving to charity, feeding the poor, giving to the needy etc... That cannot remove your sin. You can't be forgiven on your own terms like that. After all isn't this how it plays out in our everyday reality with human beings as well? For instance, let's say you were married, and you did something to upset your wife, something horrible, and repulsive. The only way to restore the relationship would be to confess that you did wrong and ask for her forgiveness. If you went and said "hey honey, I fed some old hungry guys today," or "I gave to charity." How could that result in her forgiving you? How could that restore the broken relationship? The answer is that it can't! It's the same way with God. We have offended Him with our sin! Our relationship is broken, and we are no longer friends. But the Good News is that you can be forgiven because someone has paid the price!

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*edit*
I just read that 'atheist turns Christian' thing at your link. I still see things the way he used to, with a robotic perpspective, but my emotions keep me from becoming too serious about it. Still, I'd trade my emotions for the secrets of the universe in a heartbeat, something you'd probably call selling my soul. Mahahaha, and if I ever need mental reassurance, Taoism is the way to go.

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First off A.S.A Jones is a she, not that it matters though. I think that what you said about trading your emotions for the secrets of the universe could be like opening up a Pandora's Box. It could be like killing yourself to know more about what you won't care about once you're dead.

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I wanna die
And let You give
Your Life to me
So that I might live

So I could live perfectly, but not believe in God, and I'd go to hell. **** I could save the world, and still end up in hell. So, I'll keep my word and leave. See yall later. Maybe I'll come back when I finish the Bible or something.

cheese

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So I could live perfectly, but not believe in God, and I'd go to hell. **** I could save the world, and still end up in hell. So, I'll keep my word and leave. See yall later. Maybe I'll come back when I finish the Bible or something.

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

Cyclic Model = "repeating universe thingy"

Galileo was put under house arrest, but I digress. Even after Galileo all the serious scientists of the time were researching under the assumption that the Earth was the center of the solar system. It wasn't until Kepler was given access to the observatory of Tycho Brahe that a working model was conceived. Even Kepler spent many years carefully gathering data, with instrumentation far better than that available to Galileo, before reaching his final conclusion.

Here is an article on the subject of Darwin a friend of mine wrote:

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Clearing Up a Few Misconceptions About Charles Darwin

I have noticed that among those who applaud the work of Charles Darwin, that there are certain misconceptions about the man which should be cleared up. For instance, I have heard Darwinists condemn creationists leaders for having a ‘lack of credentials.’ Just yesterday, a fan of Darwin gave me the following complaint: “ Dr. Hovind is trained as an educator, your Dr. Morris has his doctorate in civil engineering…there’s no one in the creationist camp who is really trained and educated in biology to the extent of Charles Darwin.”

I suggest that it is a good thing they were not trained in biology ’to the extent of Charles Darwin,’ because Charles Darwin was NOT a trained biologist and held no degree in that area of study.

Let’s talk about Darwin’s educational background. According to his biographers, Darwin attended Revd. Case’s grammar school in Shrewsbury, England, where he was described as ‘lazy,’ a poor student, and a slow learner. He had a particularly difficult time learning Greek, a subject, which like most of his studies, he is said to have found painfully boring. It is said, he would memorize short snippets of classical verse only to have the memory of them dissipate by the following day.

He did enjoy collecting things, however. He would collect everything from stamps to shells, although he did not seem to make any particular study of the things he collected, but seemed to do so for the sheer pleasure of gathering things. This was not enough to give him success in school, so at the age of sixteen, his father had him withdrawn, chiding him that Charles, “cared for nothing but shooting, dogs, and rat-catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all of your family.”

Terribly afraid that his son would grow up to be an idle, unfocused, ‘country-gentleman,’ Darwin’s father decided his son would follow in the family footsteps and become a doctor. So in October of 1825, Charles Darwin, by order of his father, began his medical studies at the University of Edinburgh. However, here his old habits cost him. He found himself once again bored and tended to spend his nights playing cards and drinking rather than studying. After two years, it became painfully evident he would not become a doctor, so his father had him withdraw once again.

In this time frame Darwin became familiar with the work of his grandfather, Erasmus Darwin. This point is important to bring up, because another belief held by Darwinists, is that he came up with his evolutionary theory based solely on his own observations. One Darwinist in formed me, “Unlike you creationists, Darwin did his own research and never plagiarized a soul!”

If one ‘borrows’ from a family member I believe it’s still plagiarism. Charles Darwin stole ’his’ theory from his own grandfather. Some sixty-five years before, “The Origin of Species,” ever saw print, Erasmus published his, “Zoonomia,” a huge medical teatise written in prose which has been called the first all-embracing hypothesis of evolution.

Erasmus was a profoundly anti-Christian, atheist, and had this motto painted on the side of his carriage to publicize his opinion of the matter: ‘E Conchis omnia,’ Latin for, ‘everything from shells,’ nothing from God. The opinion did not go unnoticed. Canon Seward of Lichfield Cathedral wrote some verses chiding Darwin..

“….renounces his Creator, And forms all sense from senseless matter. Great wizard he! By magic spells, Can all things raise from cockle shells?”

Almost every topic discussed and example given in ‘Zoonomia’ reappears in Charles’s ‘Origin.’ Actually, according to three of his biographer’s, all of Charles’s books have their counterpart in a chapter of Zoonomia or an essay-note to one of Erasmus’s poems.

So Erasmus, and his atheism, cast a long shadow via his grandson.

Charles father next attempted to have him study for the ministry. However, Charles was only interested in this line of work because it would give him respectability and allow him time to collect insects. Again, he was a poor student and spent his time at parties or studying nature from a purely materialistic, rather than a supernatural point of view. I do not know if Darwin earned a degree in Theology or not. Some biographers say he did, others say he dropped out of school again and after his frantic father had spread the word to this effect, a well-known academic of the day got him a job on the ’Beagle.’

I do not believe it is too far a stretch to imagine the ever lazy Darwin, seeing the opportunity to make a name for himself, using the ‘Beagle’s’ voyage as his chance to put his grandfather’s words to paper and call them his own. I think this is why he leaves the wording in ‘Origins’ so open with comments about how other’s will eventually find evidence to support ‘his findings.’ In the mean time real scientists like Gregor Mendel were laying the groundwork to explain why species do NOT experience fundamental change as Erasmus/Charles insisted, and Lord Kelvin was working out the two laws of thermodynamics, which explains that energy can be neither destroyed or created and that entropy puts biology (and everything else) on a ’down-ward swing.’ Unlike evolution which says man is getting bigger, smarter (eventually god-like.) These were ‘hands-on’ scientists. Not theoreticians.

And while we’re at it, there were many brilliant scientists during this time, who were also ’hands-on.’ In other words, they sought to answer questions, formulated hypothesis, researched, experimented and recorded their results. Which is what Erasmus/Charles failed to do.

Sir John Herschel, famous mathematician, astronomer and Fellow of the Royal Society, disliked Darwin’s theory so much that he called it ‘the law of higgledy-pigglety. The brilliant physicist James Clerk Maxwell strenuously opposed Darwinism. Renowned science philosopher William Whewell, wouldn’t even let Darwin’s book into the Cambridge library.

There were many others, such as Adam Sedgwick the geologist (who taught Darwin the elements of field geology) and Andrew Murray the entomologist, who all decided firmly against Darwin’s theory. Sedgwick even wrote to Darwin after he read his book, telling him, ‘I have read your book with more pain than pleasure. Parts of it I admired greatly, parts I laughed at till my sides were almost sore; other parts I read with absolute sorrow, because I think them utterly false and grievously mischievous.’

Richard Owen, the Superintendent of the Natural History Department of the British Museum and the man who coined the word ‘dinosaur,’ despised Darwin‘s work. Owen opposed Darwin’s work so much that in 1863, Darwin wrote to fellow evolutionist Huxley saying how upset he was with Owen’s criticism: ‘I am burning with indignation … I could not get to sleep until past three last night for indigestion.’ Later on, Darwin again expressed his feelings about Owen to his friend Hooker: ‘I believe I hate him more than you do.’

Hmmm, cold, Charles, cold.

Louis Agassiz, the founder of modern glacial geology, and Louis Pasteur (who pioneered immunization, developed the Law of Biogenesis….life comes only from life {not shells} the fundamental law of biology… were both strenuously opposed to Darwin’s theory.

So the ‘credentials’ of Charles Darwin are, to put it kindly, poor. We have a lazy kid who drops out of school, steals his grandfather’s work and manages to make atheism the social status quo, despite the fact that the greatest scientific (not theological) minds of his day thought he had lost his. How does this happen? I think because Darwin’s theory plays to the baser side of man’s character, that just maybe there isn’t a God and so perhaps he can get away with that which is ungodly.

Dear Lord, what a horrible legacy.

So, Dr.’s Hovind and Morris were certainly not trained in biology to the extent of Charles Darwin and this is just one, among many reason’s, why I respect their work.

The following books were used in the back background of this article:

King-Hele, D. ‘Erasmus Darwin.’

Barlow, N. ’The Autobiography of Charles Darwin.’

Colliers Encyclopedia

Desmond, A. and Moore, J. ’Darwin.’

Desmond, A. and Moore, J. ‘Darwin: the Life of a Tormented Evolutionist.’

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Jesus is f'ing metal!