this page says it all just turn UP the volume, that's all

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what do we have to offer? mum's creme deMenthe

It was time to get rid of Saddam. WMDs or no WMDs, I think he was dangerous.

Do a Google of "history of saddam" - most articles do not paint a pretty picture of him.

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Reasoning with non-believers without encouraging them to read the Bible, I have found, is quite useless. God's word convinces - not our own reason.
--CobraA1

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - Writing object code and GUI.

central quote:
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for a few good men to do nothing."
-Edmund Burke

basically, I'm agreeing with CobraA1. Saddam had to go and his tyranny needed to end.
now, all we have to do is finish establishing a stable government. if we fail to do that, Iraq will plunge into anarchy, with warlords fighting for power.

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Soterion Studios

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proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

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Soterion Studios

As for war, the first thing that sticks out in my mind is that no major branch of the christian church has ever believed or taught that war was always wrong. While this isn't 100% proof, it should raise a question about the idea.
Secondly the bible itself pretty clearly shows that God is not opposed to war, nor to his people going to war. Through out the old testament God puts Israel in positons of war. He sends them to war, he brings war to them. Many people use the argument "well that was the old testament, we're in the new covenant now, its different" The differences between old and new are generaly not as big as people make them out to be. People were saved the same way then that we are now, the only two real differences is they were looking forward to Jesus, we are looking back at him, then the Holy Spirit acted only in specific individual cases, now He is promised to all believers who will ask. (as Jesus said, He has been with you, but He shall be in you). The most important thing is that God himself has not changed one iota.. not even the slightest bit.
I don't believe that God orders his people to sin, and I don't believe he blesses his people for sinning. Yet God has both ordered his people to go to war, and blessed his people for going to war. Thus I don't believe going to war is always wrong.

I don't mean to be attacking or anything in any of this, hopefully it doesn't come across that way I just like blabbing and rambling

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

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proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

little twist (and something to annoy those who are anti-weaponry):
"And he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet; and he that hath none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword." Luke 22:36
so.. yeah... I bought a sword...
but, still, makes you think, huh?

but, benny, I do want you to know that, even tho I disagree, I respect your views. (and not in the way like "oh, I tolerate your views")

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Soterion Studios

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proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

(I said what I said so you wouldn't feel like it was you against everyone else)

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Soterion Studios

quote:

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Originally posted by c h i e f y:
http://www.iaja.net/rc/rc.html

this page says it all just turn UP the volume, that's all

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I looked through the site for a while. then I saw the picture of the fireman pointing. I looked behind him and that was enough for me. Nope, not going back to that site anytime soon. That picture was evil man.

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I took the road less traveled and now WHERE THE HELL AM I?????

[This message has been edited by goop2 (edited November 14, 2004).]

quote:

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I looked through the site for a while. then I saw the picture of the fireman pointing. I looked behind him and that was enough for me. Nope, not going back to that site anytime soon. That picture was evil man.

---

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Soterion Studios

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I took the road less traveled and now WHERE THE HELL AM I?????

don't be thcared (scared said with a lisp)

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Soterion Studios

quote:

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http://www.iaja.net/rc/rc.html
this page says it all just turn UP the volume, that's all

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That is terribly sad...

I do not like war at all... but there is evil in the world, many terrorist cells and strongholds were defeated in Afghanistan and Iraq. I also think that things are opening up for the Gospel to be spread to anyone who will hear.

Last year a man came to our Church who had been in one of the Towers. His testimony was incredible. There was a point where he looked out and saw the airplane heading straight towards his office, he told us that he cried to the Lord, and then the plane suddenly tilted as he cried out and the plane missed him by a small margin. You can see this in the video's, watch as the plane is slighty knocked off course by an unseen force just a few milliseconds before impact. This occured at the exact moment when he cried out to the Lord.

I am saying this because although war, terror, and all the evils of this world may seem so strong, and so overwhelming, but God is still on the throne and He is in control. Stay in God's Will and no matter what, you won't leave this life until God says so! That's fact. And there isn't a thing that the enemy can do about it.

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If you let your faith go cold enough, there might come a point where you don't want to turn back to God. That would be tragic. -- Quote from Keith Green

3rd Day Studios

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited November 14, 2004).]

Hey Benny, I respect your opinion too. This is not aimed at you, simply my point of you. Well, hopefully this will stir minds, but not harsh feelings. God Bless,
Max

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

quote:

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fight against slavery in the civil war

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Soterion Studios

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I took the road less traveled and now WHERE THE HELL AM I?????

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

The war against Iraq is wrong. What Bush did to Iraq was no better then what Osama did to the USA. Yes I'll admit Sadam is evil and shoulda been taken out of office. But the way it happend was just WRONG!!! We still really didnt finish our job in Afghanistan. We never accomplished our mission to get Osama and eliminate the Al Queda terror network. No matter what Bush says. We failed in that mission and it's all his fault.

War in all aspects is wrong. Yet we have to fight wars to stop world destruction from evil's like Osama.

Now here is a question to the poster that said quote,"If your a Christian and someone kills you, that person is doing something which angers God... God says that he will take vengance for his people, He also says when he returns He will "trouble those who have troubled my people". God is very jealous about people that do bad things to his people. So if your a christian and someone kills you its likely to be very very bad for that person. Now, love, biblicaly defined, is to do what is in the best interests of the object loved, despite the cost to yourself. Thus would it be in the best interest of the person to let them kill you, or to stop them from killing you? "

What if the person at the other end of that scope that kills you and he/she is a christian themselves just fighting for what they feal is right on the other side of the battle?

quote:

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Originally posted by Klown:
What if the person at the other end of that scope that kills you and he/she is a christian themselves just fighting for what they feal is right on the other side of the battle?

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The hardest thing I've ever heard about in this regard close to us would be the American civil war. To hear generals from both sides talk about their faith in God really makes you wonder.

For a scriptural example (for those of us here who hail from other parts of the globe than America), the one that came to mind would be the wars between Judah and the other tribes, it's just some crazy stuff.

It's heart-wrenching stuff, and I don't know an easy answer to it. It's the kind of thing that makes you crumple on the floor and pray.

Thanks for your posts -- I hope that we can have good, edifying discussion here.

Btw... welcome to the CCN forums!!! I'm fairly new here, though I've really enjoyed it ever since I've arrived. It's good to see you here.

In Christ,
clint

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http://www.includingjudas.com/christiangame.html

quote:

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What Bush did to Iraq was no better then what Osama did to the USA

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quote:

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We never accomplished our mission to get Osama and eliminate the Al Queda terror network.

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quote:

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War in all aspects is wrong

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quote:

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Thus would it be in the best interest of the person to let them kill you, or to stop them from killing you? "

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quote:

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What if the person at the other end of that scope that kills you and he/she is a christian themselves just fighting for what they feal is right on the other side of the battle?

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Soterion Studios

I've lost an uncle to war and know alot of pepl who suffered during war. I personally know a person who lived a morter blast and seen his whole platoon and most of another one die in the attack.

You can not sit there and tell me war is wrong!! If you can, then i think you need to wake up and step outside and live in the world.

I do believe you're condicending yourself chum. You say war is good, yet murder is wrong? Isnt what you're doing in a battle technicaly murder?

Ohhh, as for saying Iraqies embraced with open arms. Not tottaly correct. Yes there was a lot of young people and a few of the sects that has been held back and slaughtered by Sadam embracing us. Yet the majority of the population never wanted us to invade. Why do you think you're such a strong militant holding and following in Iraq right now.

Bush invaded Iraq with a huge grudge against because Sadam had once put a hit out on his daddies head. There was never any WMD's, No chemical or bio weaps. And in the first Gulf War, the last of the Bio and Chem weaps Sadam used, WE GIVE HIM. Yes, the united States gave Sadam WMD's, Bio and Chemical weapons. During the Iran conflict and when Afg was battling Russia, Carter and Reagan made sure at all cost's Russa would lose the WAR. So we gave them technology and WMD's and Bio and Chemical weapons to make sure they would win the war.

After the 6month hostage of Kuwate, did Bush decide to attack Iraq with the approval of the U.N. and not only steam rolled him and let him GO FREE!!! We also made sure he had no more WMD's or chemical or Bio weapons. Heck, we even made sure they didnt have enough tubing or fuel for him to support or even create Skuds for almost a year.

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proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

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I shall worship you all of my life. Till death do us together.

I myself am not completely sure what my own opinion of war is, but Glen Miller had some interesting notes when comparing Bibical wars to the Quran. God actually gives some guidelines for war in Deuteronomy 20.
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/quranlike.html

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Reasoning with non-believers without encouraging them to read the Bible, I have found, is quite useless. God's word convinces - not our own reason.
--CobraA1

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - Writing object code and GUI.

quote:

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You can not sit there and tell me war is wrong!! If you can, then i think you need to wake up and step outside and live in the world.

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Soterion Studios

Yes you do bring up a good point Benny. Yet until the mark of the Lord appears on our foreheads for other christians to see. There will be no way to tell if the pepl we're shooting at on the battle is a christian or not. And unfortunatly, there are times when that instance happens. Just one christian fighting for his country who believes they're right and the opposing army feels they're right.

Now to Goop2.
How am I any less of a christian then you are? Is it because I dont see the same things as you do or I have a different point of view then you? Yes I may be different then your average christian. I have tattoo's and piercings. Also have scars from attempts at suicide, before I came right with the Lord. Every Christian is different then the other. We span many races and colors and genders. We come from different life styles and inner circles. Yet we all share the same view. Jesus gave his life for our sins and for us to be saved. We all sin and we are all sinners. We all can never live up to the 10 cammandments. No matter how hard we try, we cannot. I take offense of the attack you just did to me. We are not ment to judge one another, which you have done.

The pentagram was never a Satanic Symble when it first came out. The symble came from Leonardo Divinci. It was used for the Di Vinci Code formula. If you look at the Divinci Man in the circle, what do you see? The pentagram. A lot of symbles over the years have been jacked and used for other things. Just like Swaztica. The orriginal Swaztica was used for friendly restraunts and pubs. Hitler took the symble and reversed the direction of the bars and used it his for emblem.

Might wanna do a lil investigating into certian symbles. And besides, the Heartagram is the emblem for a certian Skate Board company. And besides, I personally think it looks good.

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The most dangerous person is one who believes they're a "Pretty Good Christian"

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I shall worship you all of my life. Till death do us together.

quote:

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Just like I hope you can see where I'm coming from and my point of view on the aspect

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quote:

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The orriginal Swaztica was used for friendly restraunts and pubs.

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quote:

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Is it because I dont see the same things as you do or I have a different point of view then you?

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Soterion Studios

And no where in these post's have I said I was God. I hope this isnt how y'all here chose to welcome free thinking new people here to these boards by flamming and attacking them because they're so called " NEWBIES" or not in the chosen Clique.

My views arent gonna be exactly how everyone else is here. My view's represent the hell of a life i've had and the hell i've been through to make it here. I've lived in the innercity ghetto's and seen the worst of mankind.

I'm sorry Goop if I some how gave you that cold feelig. Yet to be honest. I have no idea how I did. As I've said, I'm a free thinker and an individual. I may not be a christian as long as you have been but I"m no better of a one then you are. We are all equal in the eyes of our lord.

Yet I'm glad that by the things I've said here on the boards so far has brought in a good debate and has made everyone here think and expand their views on a few things.

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The most dangerous person is one who believes they're a "Pretty Good Christian" = Mel Odom, Author of the Left Behind Apocalypse Book Series.

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proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

quote:

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Because I'm different and a free thinker, a few chosen pepl here on this board flammed me.

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Yeah, I was sorta surprised myself at some of the comments - but I don't think they did so because you are different or a "free thinker," I think they did so because you seemed a bit haughty.

Unfortunately, they didn't do much better.

I'd say both sides are doing pretty horrible with all the mud slinging.

And no, this isn't how things usually go - as programmers, we have a tendency to engage in more reasonable thinking and logic (logic is, after all, all a computer understands). This is a bit unusual.

[This message has been edited by CobraA1 (edited November 22, 2004).]

quote:

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I'm baffeled over your last comment Archangel. Because I'm different and a free thinker, a few chosen pepl here on this board flammed me. I just cant get over it.
And no where in these post's have I said I was God. I hope this isnt how y'all here chose to welcome free thinking new people here to these boards by flamming and attacking them because they're so called " NEWBIES" or not in the chosen Clique.

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but, if you read what I said, I said it wasn't the case as in, you didn't say those things... so...

okay, I'll admit, I flame people. not because they're newbies, but because of their statements.
so, rest assured, I'm flaming you because of your views are different than mine.
I don't care if you think outside the box or not. I don't care if I do either. you happened to take the opposite sides on issues I'm heavily opinionated on in an antagonistic way. I mean, "Bush did to Iraq was no better then what Osama did to the USA."
yes.. I shouldn't flame... but it's so much fun.

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Soterion Studios

thanks for your discussion klown, it does bring up some new and interesting discussion points, some peoples fcomments may have been a little disrespectful, but i think overall they've been tame, but i know how easy the human heart can get offended - as i seem to have one of those myself (a human heart).

lets go on some issues for a second before i explain my points
on certian issues i may agree with what you are saying "i.e that i believe that the iraq war is an unjust war (despite alot of people involved in it are acting moral and trying to do the ebst within their framework, and trying to be JUST rather than unjust in the way they are fighting, but i believe it has some very unjust foundations (even if mixed with good intentions), however i don't agree with most antiwar sentiments and i agree with alot of the thoughts and theology behind alot of the posters here (like simon_templer etc) (on a side note, i also believe it to be a part of God's plan, but so was God using nebachanezer to attack,destroy adn excile jerusalem (but God held babylon accountible for their prideful sin and sin in doing it, anyway off topic),

and as a christian, on issues such as abortion i think its very clear cut..

for example the right to abort based on being raped - i think its a non issue, as a Christian, for the woman, its a chance for God's grace to be sufficent, despite their suffering, for him to be able to comfort and heal and grow the mother in an amazing way, and be a testimony to many - i've seen this happen and its awesome (though of course its not easy), but it can be an oppurtunity for God to be Glorified through his grace working in the mothers life, though people weren't meant to be fatherless and its not easy - its the sinful world we live in, one which God can use ALL things. Also as christians we can show selfless and supporting love, be part of the village to grow up this child , christian men being Godly male role models. and the fruit of such thing can be amazing.. Sure there will be suffering for the woman (and also the child), but life for everybody is not without suffering, and God can use our suffering for good, and grow us, and restore whaat the locusts have eaten, besides so many women who do ABORt, suffer from depression from that act, and greif and loss that they just can't comprehend, its sad when our society has gone so that because of our thinking, so many women are duped into going against their natural maternal instincts, and women being less violent than men are actually involved in the most amount of murder - utterly bizzare. anyhow Whether they see their child day in and day out, as a reminder of their rape, and rapist, and get down and depressed about that, or rather as a blessing from God, a gift, something good (an amazing child) coming out of something bad (a rape) is a matter of perspective - whether you have God's perspective or the worlds perspective

as for say medical complications, lets say an ectopic pregnancy. medical science can not yet make the baby to survive, only the mother, but maybe one day it can, as it can already with 25 or 26 week premy babies being delivered rather young, and with amazing surgery inside the womb even on 12 or 13 week babies, utterly amazing. But even to loose a baby in that way, is still a lose and with grief - like a miscarriage, or like my friends whose baby died at 5 days old.

but getting to my point - its about worldview. First of all, NO christian has a 100% Godly worldview, we all have our blind spots, some of them serious and like a cancer, and some on issues that won't really affect our life or spiritual walk in a negative way, and we are also all on a journey with God, and as we abide with him, we get transformed into his image, and thus also have more of his worldview. But I and others who disagree with you have some blindspots definately, but there are certian foundations of the faith that we need to have solid foundations in (so we are on the rock, not on the sand and can be easily washed away), and out of those foundations come certian worldviews.

i have found in the past that my interlectual pride, and also not wanting non christian friends and stuff to look down on me "because of closed mindedness" or maybe because i didn't wanted to be associated with some 'backward christian hicks or whatever, have allowed my pride to manifest itself as being a 'free thinker', when in reality, and what shocked me, was alot of my 'free thoughts' were a result of feeding off the world and its secular humanist worldview. It is scary that even the most devout of us christians have part of our blindspots from our culture, and from the world.. Often it shocks me when God reveals this on an issue or not - and it scares me to think that certian worldviews and media and education have unbeknownly to my consious self had such an impact on the way i think..

and from alot of your arguments that thoughts, i can see written all over them secular humanist worldview, which is quite contrary to a biblical worldview?

does this mean you are less of a christian? , by no means, none of us here are christians because we are better than one another, or know more of the 'right stuff' etc.. its only by God's grace, and by faith, we are all equal foul sinners, and saved and loved by a merciful God, accepting the free gift of salvation, though we are at different stages in our walks, some of us who may be mature in some areas more, can be severely retarded in our worldview in certian areas, because of cultural blindspots, but even then God's Grace is sufficent for me adn them, and you in that.

so in our walk with Christ, as we abide with him, and let him challenge our hearts and our minds, and offer our opinions and every part of us up to him as part of our sacrifice and given him permission to work in them all, our human mind and thinking and foolish 'worldly' wisdom can be replaced by the mind of christ. So i am confident , that as you walk and grow in Christ, your worldview will be challenged and will change in many areas, but in the journey you will learn and experience things of God and his character that you could never get from just the 'factors and arguments' of these issues, but find the characters of God's grace, mercy, and jsutice , longsuffering etc behind, and it is very rich experience. And by the way, even in the wrong beliefs and worldviews are also nuggets of truth, that some more mature christians (who by nature of that sometimes risk being spiritually proud, and then can discount the truth at all in the other things), but for instance, the desire for grace and udnerstanding for women in those situations, is a good thing, even if the good intention is in a dangerou framework, that mercy in your heart is valuable to God and can and will be used by him.

God is an unchanging God, with certian paradoxes, its not possitive and negative like eastern yin and yan but perfect complements
lets compare 2 issues that some will argue for one or hte other, but both are a major part of Gods character, and though sometimes confuse our human minds, in God's understanding are perfectly complemental and not contradictionary..

say JUSTICE and MERCY
God is JUST, which means he can't let sin go unpunished and still be good, as a good human judge can't just let a criminal go free because he feels like it that day, (i.e say to a rapist, - ok, your free, no punishment, no cosequences, nobody would agree that is a good judge), yet God is merciful that he makes a way that we can still have relationship with him, and pays the cost of the sin himself..
so his justice is like a ROCK, in the ocean, its unmoving its firm and steady, yet his mercy is like an ocean wave, that swirls all around it, loving, making a way.

but back to the issue of worldview
how do we get move from a secular humanist and nonchristian worldview to a biblical worldview?

well the main answer is abiding and walking with Christ, you become like those you are around (even if you don't want to, for example my wife, though determined not to talk like a kiwi, subconsiously picks up the kiwi accent and starts using kiwi words rather than her american words - even though she tries so hard to never use kiwi words, the kiwi rather than american version just slips off her lips (side issue, and people say ungodly entertainment doesn't have an effect on you - if you are well balanaced - yeah right but anyway)
so as we hang with jesus, we naturally become more like him, and He and his worldview rubs off on us, in an area here and an area there..
so here are some scriptures in that context

romans 12:2
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.
(read also verse one, it puts an awesome context to this)

and take everythought captive to Christ - that's also being willing to laydown our opinions , which takes being secure in our idenity in Christ (so our idenity comes from Christ, rather than from our opinions and thinking that that is what makes us who we are.)
2 Corinthians 10
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Love
Karl - Brother in Christ

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

The Swastika.. the swastika is a very ancient symbol and long predates the Nazi's. The Nazi's based much of their ideology around the existance of the "aryan" race. The idea of this race, as the nazi's imagined it is mostly born of occultism and pure imagination. However, the Nazi's went to great lengths to try and prove their views scientificly. Those lengths included many archeological expeditions and efforst in india and the surrounding region. This is because the Aryan's were a real group of people (they were just nothing resembling what the nazi's wanted them to be) who moved out of the the steppes down into India and Persia thousands of years ago. The Nazi's adopted the swastika as their symbol because they believed that it was a symbol invented by the aryans.
The reality is that the swastika was a common symbol used in a number of cultures around that region, including the aryans. It was a stylized sun wheel. That is, it represented the sun.

The Pentagram.. The Pentagram is easily as old as the swastika, if not older. The first known examples of the pentagram are found in ancient sumerian tablets going back 4000-5000 years old. What the pentagram originaly meant or where it original derived from is pretty much a mystery, although many believe it symbolized the 5 elements of which they believed creation was composed. However, the pentagram has been used by many different people and religions down through history. In early christianity the pentagram was used to symbolize the wounds Jesus suffered while on the cross. It is a little known fact that most of the modern occultism came through victorian age occultism, which in turn was a descendant of medieval occult traditions, and most of them were born out of judaism and christian traditions. The beginning of these traditions was in Jewish Kabbalah, and its christian counter part. Gradualy over time the jewish and christian aspects were diluted by mixture of greek and egyptian beliefs (known as hermeticism) to produce the occult ideas of the middle ages.. from there it was further diluted by removing the jewish and christian aspects and replacing them with eastern philosophies of hiduism, along with a good deal of out right imagination, and that is what produced victorain age occultism, which is the direct parent of what we have now.
So at one point the pentagram was symbolic of Christ, then those who were delving too deeply into the dakrness took that symbol as protection when they dealt with demons etc. Eventualy Christ was removed entirely and yet the symbol remained. To this day the pentagram is used in the occult as a symbol of protection from evil spirits, although some have gone back to the idea that it symbolizes the elements.
As to what it originaly meant.. the answer is, no one really knows.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

[This message has been edited by klumsy (edited November 25, 2004).]

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

To much human life being lost because of Bush's attack on Iraq for Weapons of Mass Destruction, Chemical and Bio weapons. Yet what did he say the other day? There are no WMD's or Chemical or Bio weaps there and hasnt been any for a few years. Yet he says they could have had them weapons in a few years if Sadam wanted them.

Is it me or did Bush prove alot of people right by him saying that? Not only did he just prove that this war was unjust but he's also making the U.S. look like a bully among other nations. All Bush has done is give the US a huge black eye and ruining our foriegn relations. Yet, he's slowly gaining that back by what he's doing with the Red Cross and Tsunami Victims.

Now as I've said before. I agree that Sadam had to removed from power along with the idiots who are running the Oil for Food programs over there, but they did it in the worst possible way.

I'm hoping that the fighting will slowly die down and Iraq will become it's own government again with out our support. Yet i know that is very far off into teh future. I'm sick of hearing about all the loss of life over there. Specially when I have a few friends over there right now in the National Gaurd.

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The most dangerous person is one who believes they're a "Pretty Good Christian" = Mel Odom, Author of the Left Behind Apocalypse Book Series.

I'll just talk about current events for now, I doubt we'll ever come to a complete agrement about the past of Iraq.

quote:

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I'm hoping that the fighting will slowly die down and Iraq will become it's own government again with out our support.

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I'm sure Iraq will have its own government with or without our support. They're already having elections.

quote:

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Yet i know that is very far off into teh future.

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The election date is set, and it's not that far off.

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - hoping to get more done over the holidays . . .

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I dont like siggys. They are to hard to think up :(

People make a big deal about the lack of WMD. This disagreement comes about mainly due to a basic difference in how people define "having WMD". To many people, "having WMD" means warehouses filled with war material ready to be used. Of course, the problem with chemical and biological weapons is that even if you have a tiny sample it's possible to quickly grow enough to kill off the world's population in a short amount of time.

Basically I see the Pentagon and the CIA as having erred on the side of caution. They had evidence that Saddam was pursuing weapons research programs so they assumed that meant Saddam had managed to resupply his WMD stocks. The evidence the world's intelligence community had for Saddam actually having USABLE weapons was rather flimsy, but from their psychological profiles, as well as interviews with subordinates, of Saddam it was believed he'd pursue WMD mainly for his stature. Saddam apparently felt "belittled" in the eyes of his peers merely if he didn't make the claim of having WMD.

From everything I've read it appears UN sanctions were at least capable of slowing the WMD research program's progress due to lack of materials. Saddam had the facilities in place ready to go into production once sanctions were hypothetically lifted. Just the mere fact that Saddam was actively seeking WMD programs was breaking international law, which by itself is legal justification for the Coalition's actions.

Now for the links with terrorism. For some odd reason people associate Al Qaeda as BEING Osama Bin Laden. So when news networks say there isn't a connection between Al Qaeda and Saddam what they're saying is that there isn't a known connection between Bin Laden and Saddam; which is true. Bin Laden is known to dislike Saddam as a person since he doesn't hold to Bin Laden's strict Islamic beliefs. The problem with that view is that there is plenty of evidence for ties between Saddam, Al Qaeda in general, and other terrorist organizations.

If you limit the definition of "terrorist ties" and "having WMD" it's fully possible to claim that Saddam didn't possess either. The problem is that people are using that definition to further their political agenda and to justify their hatred of Bush to unreasonable and illogical lengths.

[This message has been edited by Gump (edited January 17, 2005).]

Elections going on or planned to be going in Iraq has been trying to happen since July. With all the street fighting and bombings. They've been delayed so much it's worse then the fighting over in Isreal. It'll be a long time before there is an actual Iraqi government running the nation.

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The most dangerous person is one who believes they're a "Pretty Good Christian" = Mel Odom, Author of the Left Behind Apocalypse Book Series.

quote:

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Sadam is out of power (yet he's legally running for presidant again from what I read)

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From his jail cell? Would we even allow that?

quote:

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They've been delayed so much it's worse then the fighting over in Isreal.

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I've been hearing "January" for - like - forever. I'm not seeing any delays.

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - hoping to get more done over the holidays . . .

[This message has been edited by CobraA1 (edited January 20, 2005).]

If people object to the war in Iraq on practical grounds of some sort, thats at least reasonable. However, the objections many raise that it is an unjust war or that we are waging war on civilians and innocents. I find both of these objections to be without basis, especially the later of the two.
The only thing unjust about this war is the fact that we waited 15 years to do what we should have done the first time, and it is unjust that we let people suffer and die who depended on us and trusted us. The most unjust thing about this war is that we are 15 years late in honoring our word.
The hypocrisy of the politicians who protest this war as unjust because of the suffering unavoidably brought upon civilians in time of conflict, and particularly so with france and the UN leadership, disgusts me. These same politicians have been content to profit from the suffering of those same civilians for 15 years. Have no illusions that the reason france and the UN opposed this war is because they were raking in millions, probably billions of dollars by supporting Saddam, all the while knowing that the money which was supposed to go for food and medicine for the Iraqi people was lining their pockets, and buying weapons for saddam to continue to oppress his own countrymen.

As for claiming that the US is making war on civilians, this is simply ignorant swallowing of propaganda (and I'm not saying anyone in here has claimed this, but its something I encounter all the time from people in every day life). The US army has been at pains to avoid all possible collateral damage. Even to the point of endangering our own soldiers. The level of restraint and precaution taken by our military in this campaign is unique in all of history.
Yes there have been abuses, notably of prisoners. The fact of war throughout history in the armed forces of every nation has been that such abuses are more generaly the rule than the exception. It is not the fact that such abuses occur by which we should judge the nation or the military, but rather both the frequency of such events, and more importantly the way in which they are handled (by which I mean prosecuted and punnished).

I don't demand that everyone support the war, or think its the best idea.. in fact there have been many times, even from the beginning of the war that I questioned it and thought it wasn't the best idea, there's been many times I have thought we should pull out. In the end I think we will pull out, and as soon as we do Iraq will fall apart and be torn to peices by the Iranians (or shi'ites backed by Iran) and the turkish.
In view of that I don't think it is wise for us to remain much longer and I think it is a vain effort to try and rebuild Iraq, because I don't think its possible. However, it only speaks to our charity and good intention that we are even trying.

of all the arguments against the war, quite possibly the worst I have heard is that we are doing all this for oil. The US has shelled out billions of dollars and we have received nothing in return in the way of oil concessions or profits of other kind. This argument is the fall back of people who have lost touch with reality. The facts of our diplomatic record show that the US has even gone against its own best interests in terms of oil in a number of cases in the inerest of doing what was right.
I have no illusions about the record of the US in international affairs. We are not spotless by any means. We have done many things that are reproachable. However, on the whole our people have tried to do what was right and honorable.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

1. Bush didn't just "jump into a war". The whole situation was brewing for over a decade and came to a head with UN resolution 1441, which was not instigated by Bush but by many nations. Both major political party's in the US were united at the time, condemning Saddam and demanding military action. It wasn't until later that Bush's political opponents sniffed out an opportunity and did an abrupt about-face.
2. The development of a new democratic state has yet to fall behind schedule, and it is going far faster than most experts would have expected.
3. When talking about July and elections I'm assuming you're talking about the offical handover of power that occurred June 28, 2004.
4. Saddam cannot run for election.
5. Your estimates of current Coalition military strength and troop conditions is extreme, to say the least.

The biggest problem facing the rebuilding of Iraq is not its government - it's quite amazing how they've managed to keep to the established timetable, write a constitution based upon the ideals of a representative Republic, and formally hand over power to the Iraqi governing council despite all the opposition. The problem is, the Coalition is falling behind when it comes to building a secular and powerful military in Iraq, one capable of holding the nation together and yet willing to protect the democratic government.

As of now training this new military has "fallen behind" schedule and it will most likely take 4 to 5 years before the Iraqis can protect themselves. The Coalition apparently doesn't have the resources to construct a democratic state, protect the state, and rebuild the military all at the same time at the rate THEY WANT TO ACHIEVE. The pace they have set is amazing when compared to nation rebuliding examples like Japan and Germany after WW2 (which, btw, the NY Times repeatedly claimed would fail). The problem is that the average person has completely unrealistic expectations of how long such reconstruction takes. Under pressure by the people politicians might pull the Coalition out of Iraq earlier than adviseable.

If the Coalition pulls out early and the fledgling Iraqi government falls after they leave I'm only going to blame the UN and the nations who refused, and still refuse, to help out of sheer greed. The resources and additional troops they could provide could significantly alter the outcome.

Do a search on "food for oil scandal". All this exposure has forced U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan to call for an "independent" inquiry... but appointed by Annan himself. This is a problem since Annan's own son is implicated in this Scandal, as well as France, Russia, and Germany (the primary countries against the action against Saddam). Never mind that French and Russian oil companies possessed oil contracts with Saddam Hussein, amounting to 40% of Iraq's oil industry. Follow the money trail and you can easily see the real reason for their being against the 49 nations in the Coalition.

A couple months back, the Iraqi Oil Ministry released a partial list of beneficiaries: 270 names of individuals, political entities, and companies from across the world who received bribes from Saddam Hussein's regime. The list includes former French Interior Minister Charles Pasqua, the "director of the Russian President's office," the Russian Communist Party, the Ukraine Communist Party, the Palestine Liberation Organization, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the son of Lebanese President Emile Lahud, the son of Syrian Defense Minister Mustafa Tlass, and George Galloway, a British Member of Parliament and on and on. The Russian government alone is alleged to have received an astonishing $1.36 billion in oil "vouchers" aka bribes from Saddam Hussein.

It was the hand over that was/happened in July, not the elections. (my big error there, sorry) the elections are supposed to happen in time and on schedual. Sorry, another error i made.

Yes I know Sadam cannot run for election. I know that, I'm just saying Sadam put his name to become president and if he would beable to run, from what i've read, He would win. That was some thing i read about a month before I started posting here.

I will admit that i dont think Bush has had the right agenda for the US in the whole thing. Sadam should have been out of power back when his daddy was pres. Yet I still believe this war right now could have waited atleast until we had Afghanistan more undercontrol and settled before we stormed Iraq. All we did is weaken our own military and spread them to far out and over working them. Even tho they're doing one hell of a killer job right now. Even tho they're fighting in city streets where there should be no fighting.

Saying the war is for oil. Just stupid, yet we cant open everyone's mind up and show them why it's really happening. Even tho Bush has changed his mind a few times on why we're fighting the war.

Now that major info has leaked out. We might finally get better people in the U.N. With a few things I've read and seen on CNN, there have been a few people in the U.N. that has been paid off by Sadam and his regem. Also there are a few U.S. ambasadors and senators that have been paid off by him too. Once we start to get them slime ball corrupt idiots out and get better people in there. We might ever have to do what we did in Iraq ever again.

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The most dangerous person is one who believes they're a "Pretty Good Christian" = Mel Odom, Author of the Left Behind Apocalypse Book Series.

quote:

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Originally posted by Goop2:
When Im 21 Im going to war and Im gonna be proud of it. Ill be helping to keep America what it should be. Im wondering if your even a christian. You dont seem to sound like one. I was edgy on the first post I saw from you. The thing that gets me the most is your avatar looks like a pentagram.

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Whose avatar looks looks like a pentagram? And going to war for America is not exactly a Christian thing to do, You should be serving God not devoting four years your life to who the a man voted president by people of the world.

No ovensee to the troops, it is honorable to be willing to die for your country, I just don't think Christians should kill.

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We should use crosses, not stars for are mempership level representation.

Anyways they are completely different, but both probably satanic

--D-SIPL

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"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler

Exodus 15:3 The Lord is a man of war
Matthew 5:39 If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Obviously you cannot focus on one verse. God is a God of both grace and justice. There is inter-personal conflicts where your ability to witness could be harmed by taking spiteful vengeance. Then there are criminals who need to be brought to justice. The hard part is finding the balance.

The church, historicaly, has never taken a stand that christians should not be soldiers. This even extends to Jesus himself, who in the course of his ministry interacted with soldiers (even Roman soldiers) and did not direct them to give up their vocation or even comment on it negatively. It seems almost to have been a non issue with him.
The Church through most of its history did take a stand that, even as a soldier, it was undesirable to shed blood, and that the shedding of blood, even when justified, essentially made one somewhat unclean. For this reason leaders of the church were forbidden from being soldiers or shedding blood in the early church.
However, there has been a long tradition as well of christians being soldiers. There was even an entire roman legion made up of christians (I believe it served under Marcus Aurelius). This legion was known as "The Thundering Legion" because they were once miraculously delivered by a lightning and thunder storm. Even this legion did come under persecution though because of their refusal to make sacrifices to the state religions. This illustrates the dangers of serving under questionable authorities.

The church, and scripture, have always allowed soldier as a true vocation (even when serving non christian leaders), but one that comes at a cost. Traditionaly that cost was that serving as a soldier and particularly shedding blood disqualified a person from being ordained as a member of the priesthood/clergy.
The orthodox church had a somewhat softer position on this because the orthodox church was more closely allied to the state than the western church was and so the orthodox gave more blessing to military service. In the west this began to change at the time of the crusades. From that time on the catholic church began to take on the idea of the holy warrior fighting against the enemies of God (similar to the old testament stories). The dominican order, in its early days, served largely to preach crusade and to recruit warriors for the cause of holy wars. Even then, however, the catholic church forbade warring against fellow christians, or even non christians who were not an active threat. Although this was largely ignored by the nobles of europe the church actually put forth great effort to stop violence in europe for many centuries.

In short the bible and the church both allow that the vocation of a soldier is necessary, and is not inherintly sinful, and in some cases is even a service to God. However, both also have always taught that it is wrong to be a man of violence. As with many things in christianity, the christian soldier is something of a paradox (not a contradiction), a soldier who does his duty with conviction and passion but does not love violence and prefers mercy whenever possible.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

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Only god may judge me

Matthew 5 :
43 You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy."
44 But I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who despitefully use you and persecute you,
45 so that you may become sons of your Father in Heaven. For He makes His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax-collectors do the same?
47 And if you greet your brothers only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax-collectors do so?
48 Therefore be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

Matthew 26:
51 And, behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, and he struck a servant of the high priest and cut off his ear.
52 Then Jesus said to him, Put up your sword again into its place; for all who take the sword shall perish with a sword.

And some more:

James 1 :
19 Therefore, my beloved brothers, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath.
20 For the wrath of man does not work out the righteousness of God.
21 Therefore putting aside all filthiness and overflowing of evil, receive in meekness the implanted Word, which is able to save your souls.

Romans 12:
17 Repay no one evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it is possible, as far as is in you, being in peace with all men.
19 not avenging yourselves, beloved, but giving place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord."
20 Therefore if your enemy hungers, feed him. If he thirsts, give him drink. For in so doing you shall heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Some OT:

Deuteronomy 32:
36 For the LORD will bring His people justice; and He shall have compassion on His servants, for He sees that their power is gone, and only the imprisoned and abandoned remain.

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Psalms 127:1 Unless the LORD builds the house, they labor in vain who build it; unless the LORD keeps the city, the watchman stays awake in vain.

[This message has been edited by Jari (edited May 09, 2005).]

quote:

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Originally posted by eucaliptus_boy:
Now I am slitely anoyed by the two topics on the Heartagram. Dose it seem satonic to have a heart with a triangle through it? I dont think so, I think it means power & Beauty/Kindness, Triangle meaning strength, heart meaning Beauty/ Kindness

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Since it reminds about other religion and God I would recommend you not to use/wear such things

Exodus 20:
4 You shall not make to yourselves any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

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Psalms 127:1 Unless the LORD builds the house, they labor in vain who build it; unless the LORD keeps the city, the watchman stays awake in vain.

Ephesians 6:
11 Put on the whole armor of God so that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the world's rulers, of the darkness of this age, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

See, we do not fight against flesh and blood and yet our battle is against the world's rules.

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Psalms 127:1 Unless the LORD builds the house, they labor in vain who build it; unless the LORD keeps the city, the watchman stays awake in vain.

Luk 11:21 When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
Luk 11:22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.

Act 10:22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

Act 10:22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

Mat 8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
Mat 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

Luk 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
Luk 14:32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

I think its ok to be a soldier in defense of your country. It is also ok to protect your life or your family's if attacked. And also ok to be a police officer, bodyguard, security officer, etc.. Yes this is the way of the world and 'worldly' professions. Sometimes police officers and military kill and sometimes they are killed. But are these people killing out of their 'wrath' or to defend and protect, and ultimately out of love. I think this a defining point. Just as the centerions of Jesus's day, many soldiers know that their life here on earth could be forfieted because of their choice to defend and protect our country and loved ones from people and nations that are actively warring against us because of our beliefs.

But its good to konw that there are many times the Apostles were saved from certain death by their faith in God. Though they suffered tremedous persecution, many times, God delivered them out of these situations without them having to use force/violence.

quote:

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Originally posted by coolj:
More verses, maybe to balance some of the ones against war/fighting.

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You have to read before those verses to understand their true meaning.

Now, do you think that Jesus would start talking about about guarding you earthly wealth after talking about demons?
I don't think so. What I believe he ment when he said "But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him" was demon as stronger.

quote:

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14 And He was casting out a demon, and it was dumb. And it happened as the demon was going out, the dumb one spoke. And the people marveled.
15 But some of them said, He casts out demons through Beelzebub the chief of the demons.
16 And others, tempting Him , sought a sign from Heaven from him.
17 But knowing their thoughts, He said to them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation. And a house divided against a house falls.

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Jesus spoke about kindom and house and how they fall if they are divided against their selfs...

quote:

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18 If Satan also is divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? For you say that I cast out demons through Beelzebub.

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... But what he ment was that demons cant cast out a demons.

quote:

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19 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges.
20 But if I cast out demons with the finger of God, no doubt the kingdom of God has come on you.
21 When the strong man, fully armed, guards his dwelling, his goods are in peace.

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I believe he means a man who is prepared to defend his house physically...
EDIT: Or an unbeliever who isn't afraid of damnation...

quote:

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22 But when one stronger than he comes, he overcomes him. He takes from him all his armor in which he trusted, and he distributes his arms.

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... But a demon is the stronger one that overcomes him!
EDIT: ... will lose everything

quote:

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23 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

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Jesus probably mentions this because what people said in verse 15.
You might want to use that verse when determinating allies in war but dont, read these verses first:

quote:

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38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out demons in Your name, and he does not follow us. And we forbade him, because he does not follow us.
39 But Jesus said, Do not forbid him. For there is no one who shall do a work of power in My name who can lightly speak evil of Me.
40 For he who is not against us is for us.

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So if a Christian goes against Christian they are according to this both for God?

quote:

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24 When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he walks through dry places seeking rest. And finding none, he says, I will return to my house from which I came out.
25 And when he comes, he finds it swept and decorated.
26 And he goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and entering in, they dwell there. And the last state of that man is worse than the first.

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This was the last verse about demons. After this the subject was changed.

quote:

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Act 10:22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

Act 10:22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

Mat 8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
Mat 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

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Even Jesus didn't say anything about him being soldier that doesn't mean it was ok by him. In John 8 a woman who had committed an adultery was brought in front of Jesus but Jesus didn't Judge her either.

quote:

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Luk 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
Luk 14:32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

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This is just an example it doesnt mean war is ok.
Jesus was talking about following him:

quote:

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26 If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.
27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me, he cannot be My disciple.
28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he may have enough to finish it;
29 lest perhaps, after he has laid the foundation and is not able to finish, all those seeing begin to mock him,
30 saying, This man began to build and was not able to finish.

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I think Jesus said this because following him isnt a little thing but requires a lot of determination to give up your life. And if you don't hate your self when you want to follow Jesus you haven't prepared your self.

quote:

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Originally posted by coolj:

It is also ok to protect your life or your family's if attacked.

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Why don't you trust God?

quote:

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Originally posted by coolj:

But its good to konw that there are many times the Apostles were saved from certain death by their faith in God. Though they suffered tremedous persecution, many times, God delivered them out of these situations without them having to use force/violence.

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Yes, Jesus said that we as Christians will face hard times and Bible mentions on how prophecies we're killed which can happen but we are not lost when our body dies, are we? No we are saved.

But if we kill some one who isn't saved....? We deny he's second change! God gives us all second change and forgives our sins! But if we kill some one we denying hes second change!

quote:

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Matthew 6:
15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

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quote:

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Matthew 5:
21 You have heard that it was said to the ancients, "You shall not kill" --and, "Whoever shall kill shall be liable to the judgment."
22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be liable to the judgment. And whoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be liable to the sanhedrin; but whoever shall say, Fool! shall be liable to be thrown into the fire of hell.

Matthew 5:
38 You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth."
39 But I say to you, Do not resist evil. But whoever shall strike you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
40 And to him desiring to sue you, and to take away your tunic, let him have your coat also.

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[This message has been edited by Jari (edited May 09, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Jari (edited May 10, 2005).]

Deuteronomy 32:
35 Vengeance and retribution belong to Me. Their foot shall slide in time, for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come on them make haste.
36 For the LORD will bring His people justice; and He shall have compassion on His servants, for He sees that their power is gone, and only the imprisoned and abandoned remain .

Please give it time...

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Psalms 127:1 Unless the LORD builds the house, they labor in vain who build it; unless the LORD keeps the city, the watchman stays awake in vain.

Having said that, it's obvious God hates war but empowers his children when needed. You're not going to find Biblical support saying that you should never go to war, but for the circumstances/motivations for when you should or should not.

Joshua 5:13-14

" And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, [Art] thou for us, or for our adversaries?

And he said, Nay; but [as] captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? "

I think this explains Gods view of war. When Joshua asked whether the angel fought for him or against him, the angel simply answered "No".To me at least, this speaks volumes. God is not willing that anyone should perish, therefore, as far is war is concerned, he is not "on" one side or another. As far as I go, I think President Bush is a man of God, and that his action evince a great amount of faith and wisdom. This doen't mean he's perfect, but in this case I'm pretty sure that he did the right thing. If you think of this from the position of the Body of Christ this is a great thing. We are supposed to feel for our brothers and sisters who are in persecution, as bound with them, and this is a great chance to ease the pain of the Body, ending the torture and imprisonment of our spiritual siblings, as well as a chance to open them up and make them able to minister out in the open in a much freer (but probably still hostile) environment.
As for my position on war, that is tougher. My lack of age holds me back from the very useful lever of experience, so I am stuck to quoting what I've picked up in my short time on this planet. I think that war is A WAY, but I don't think that war is THE BEST WAY. Abraham Lincoln tried to avoid War "at all costs", but was eventually forced to fight one. There has not been a single major war in modern history to my knowledge during which one side was "the good guys" (for instance, yes Hitler was bad, but Stalin was right up there with him, and even surpassed him as far as body count goes). I think that battle is best done in the spiritual. Think of it this way, every country in the world has a small group of Christians, a remnant. It is the part of the free christians on the outside of ungodly, and tyrannic nations to provide "support fire" in the terms of prayers as well as financial and emotional aid (think Voice of the Martyrs) so that their brothers and sisters on the front lines can fight the Good Fight through witness and ministry. Such tactics can, and do change nations. All it takes is one person having the courage to witness to one person, and then that person, with the blessing and favor of God, rising through the ranks, and maybe witnessing to another person higher up in the governmental hierarchy (since they have access to them). Eventually, the government will be so populated with Christians that you'll end up with a completely different regime than what you started with. Over time, and with much support from people like you and me, these Christian "gurreilla" tactics, can break the strongholds of evil in the spiritual, not just strongholds of evil in the physical, and set free the captive nation. All the while wihtout war, or bloodshed (other than that of persecution), and using the principles of turning the other cheek, and loving your neighbor as yourself.

THIS, I think is the way to fight tyranny, and win a war in a way that will bless the heart of God, and stay true to his "No" nature, which longs that every person be saved, and that none perish.

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All that is gold does not glitter
Not all those who wander are lost

The old that is stong does not wither
Deep roots are not touched by the frost

From the ashes a fire shall be woken
A light from the shadows shall spring

Renewed shall be blade that was broken
And the crownless again shall be King

I don't disagree with you, I know that we are to obey God and love our enemies, and I do believe God can deliver whole nations out of conflict without bloodshed. But I am still learning, and I DO want to do what is God's will. How do you read verses like the following. To me it seems that God has given nations the power to resist evil and this might be by the sword?

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Also, could this be similar to if we have faith enough God will heal us. Yet, we use doctors and medicines instead of relying on God's supernatural power to heal us miraclously?

quote:

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Originally posted by coolj:
Jari,

How do you read verses like the following. To me it seems that God has given nations the power to resist evil and this might be by the sword?

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

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Many people see it that way but it's not the case.

I didn't understand these verses correctly at the first place either but then I found this exelent explanation, read it and you understand:
http://romans13.embassyofheaven.com/higherpowers.htm

See? God is the only authority, not the state. We cannot have two masters:

Matthew 6:
24 No one can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will hold to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

quote:

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Originally posted by coolj:
Also, could this be similar to if we have faith enough God will heal us. Yet, we use doctors and medicines instead of relying on God's supernatural power to heal us miraclously?

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I don't think they are related. That's a really good subject though, about what we can get through our faith from God.

Mark 11:
20 And passing on early, they saw the fig-tree dried up from the roots.
21 And Peter, remembering, said to Him, Rabbi, behold, the fig tree which You cursed has withered away.
22 And answering Jesus said to them, Have faith of God.
23 For truly I say to you that whoever shall say to this mountain, Be moved and be cast into the sea, and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that what he said shall occur, he shall have whatever he said.

Mark 16:
15 And He said to them, Go into all the world, proclaim the gospel to all the creation.
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned.
17 And miraculous signs will follow to those believing these things: in My name they will cast out demons; they will speak new tongues;
18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them. They will lay hands on the sick, and they will be well.

But that's a new big subject...

God bless you all and remember to pray for wisdom.

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Psalms 127:1 Unless the LORD builds the house, they labor in vain who build it; unless the LORD keeps the city, the watchman stays awake in vain.

[This message has been edited by Jari (edited May 10, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Gump (edited May 10, 2005).]

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

*siiiggghhh...*

This is no easy question. People were killed, yes, and people continue to die. Some say it was none of our buisness, some say it is. But were in this war waist-deep weather we like it or not. What happens if we pull out of iraq? Give Osama back control? let him torture and kill? Let him WIN? If he wins, he will want to win again!! He'll attack again and again because he knows we won't fight! People die in wars, yes, its horrible, its tragic, but to err is to be human. wars can be errs, but wars can be helpful. If we win, we eradicate Osama, and we could stop terrorism else where, and Iraq will be free to do what they want, even if they fall back into terrorism. but if we leave know, what will happen? the Iraqi police forces and Iraqi millitary are TRAINED BY US FORCES. If we pull out then they lose. They might have survivign forces to train upcoming millitary and police, but if they dont, then their army and police foreces will fall into ruins, and the terrorists will reign supreme and will have the confidence that they can defeat anybody! The US has the biggest millitary, if they can beat us, they can beat anybody! (or nearly anybody, russias got more land that us. though... im not sure what that has do do with anything... more ppl perhaps? =\)

hehh.. even i don't have a define yes or no on this one...

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(yes, i know im stupid)

Blessed are those who suffer for doing what is right.
The kingdom of hevan bleongs to them.-Matthew 5:10

PM ME YOUR DESCRIPTION OF ME! ILL PUT IT HERE!

Here's all the comments!

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This, however, is not true. C.S. Lewis actually writes a section on this very topic in his book Mere Christianity (if memory serves) in which he discusses loving enemies. He was a soldier in WWI and he specificly uses the example of loving the german soldiers and he imagines an instance where he and a believing german soldier would come face to face and kill each other and a moment later be united in the afterlife, laughing over the irony of their situation.
This is also born up by real world examples. Those that come most readily to mind are from the american civil war.. as HanClinto pointed out earlier. Men on both sides were americans, and christians, and in some cases even family members. There are many stories that show that the soldiers often did not hate the enemy, but even respected them, and even loved them.
From wars the world over the recollections and memoirs of soldiers often reveal that they felt no hatred, no sense of vengence, but rather pity and sadness at killing the enemy, and recognition that the enemy were men much like themselves.

This is not to suggest that there is no savagery, hatred, or vengence in war.. those things are often the rule. Especially because most people are not christian and even christians fail in behavior under stress. However, as a student of the history of war it is one of the constant and consistent surprises to find the humanity and compassion with which many soldiers have viewed their enemies.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

I would hate to get pulled into a war but I'm sorry my country (Canada) didn't back you guys up in Iraq.