the pro tounges=sole manifestion lobby intepret it one way, and in that context it makes sense.
the rest interpret it the other way - as it seems to be written.. lets go and look at the greek the writing style of the day
and the literary styles and devices used.

the big BUT is the but in verse 7

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

there is definately a contrast with the but.. however what is it contrasting?.. It is saying there is divsiity
of gifts, etc etc.. (and its introducing the point as typical literary style, clarifying each statement with "but the same Lord etc)
then it says "though there are diversiteies of gifts, the spirit is manifested through each man FOR A PURPOSE"
so in many ways - we do agree with you about the BUT... it means that every man will have the manifestation of the Spirit
(as introduced above as the diversities of the gifts).. as far as this BUT is concerned we are in agreement, as is the syntax
and grammer... however where we differ is the meaning of 'this manifestation of the Spirit'
But lets not overlook the rest of the sentence.. there is a purpose .. and that purpose is to PROFIT WHITAL.. for the benefit of all
it makes much more sense that the whole diversity of gifts , rather than tounges, is this Manifestation that benefits all
as if I Speak in tounges, it rarely benefits the whole chruch.(unless another gift is used - interpration).

So the context of 'manifestation of the Spirit' from the sentences above, and its gramatically tieing to it, as well
as the purpose of it- stated in the same sentence.. seem to point strongly that the manifestation of the Spirit is not tounges
, well not soley tounges... but basically however the Spirit will manifest.. through the various gifts, administrations, and operations..
next following this verse is a greek linguistic form.. similar to a bullet list.. or an E.G ... basically it lists
'the manifestation of the Spirit'
you can tell this by many lingustic elements.. the sentence order being one... moreover you can be SURE this is the case..
by the wording "is given"... it ties in verse 7 with the ones that follow

7 says that 'spirits manifestation' is given to all... then it breaks that down to different aspects of 'spirits manifestation' and different aspects of ALL... with given being consistant..

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

each time ephasising these are all of the same Spirit, and all diverse, and given to DIFFERENT people - another.. and all part of that diverse manifestion of the spirit..
it specifies that it is according to God's will, that he divides these gifts... again going back to 7... "to profit withal'
and the following paragraph about 'the body' really backs up this understanding and context.. as well as the paragraph about
"are all gifts given to everybody"

and also by the fact this is "given" - shows that it is in the greater context than just the meeting.. maybe later on, its in the context of the meeting... but as for me.. God gave me gifts when i accepted him, not at each meeting.I don't have to pray to God - Lord give me one of these spiritual gifts today for this meeting. I am in my place in the body of Christ, always.. whether in a meeting, functioning sharing the gospel, at home with my family - not just in a meeting.. always

What can be said by this block of scriptures is the following..

This scripture cannot prove that you aren't saved if you don't speak in tounges..
But it does prove that the phrase "manifestation of the Spirit" in verse 7 , does not and can not mean tounges soley and can not
be used in the arugment that all christians have this manifestation, especially in the context of this scripture.. it totally refutes
that argument...

So we do we go from here.. we need to go through the other scriptures used to back up this 'tounges shows salvation' doctrine.. maybe still this doctrine is true by scripture... however 1 cor 12 cannot in any way back it up..

the above scripture was quoted in KJV
to finish off this post.. lets see how other greek scholars, who are more in tune with greek syntax and literary style than myself have translated this into english in recent decades... (CAPS ADDED BY ME)

NIV
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given FOR THE COMMON GOOD. 8TO ONE there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, TO ANOTHER the message of knowledge by means of the SAME SPIRIT, 9TO ANOTHER faith by the same Spirit, TO ANOTHER gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10TO ANOTHER miraculous powers, TO ANOTHER prophecy, TO ANOTHER distinguishing between spirits, TO ANOTHER speaking in different kinds of tongues,[1] and TO STILL ANOTHER the interpretation of tongues.[2] 11
ALL THESSE ARE THE WORK OF THE ONE AND THE SAME SPIRIT,AND HE GIVES THEM TO
EACH ONE, JUST AS HE DETERMINES.

NLT

6There are DIFFERENT WAYS God works in our lives, but it is the SAME GOD who does the work through all of us. 7A SPIRITUAL GIFT is given to each of us as a means of HELPING THE ENTIRE CHURCH. 8To one person the Spirit gives the ability to give wise advice; to another he gives the gift of special knowledge. 9The Spirit gives special faith to another, and to someone else he gives the power to heal the sick. 10He gives one person the power to perform miracles, and to another the ability to prophesy. He gives someone else the ability to know whether it is really the Spirit of God or another spirit that is speaking. Still another person is given the ability to speak in unknown languages,[2] and another is given the ability to interpret what is being said. 11It is the one and only Holy Spirit who distributes these gifts. HE ALONE DECIDES WHICH GIFT EACH PERSON SHOULD HAVE.

God Bless
Karl

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

[This message has been edited by klumsy (edited March 31, 2003).]

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

How about instead of rehashing your views on 1 Cor 12 ( which says more in support of me that we've not touched on yet ), you explain how your view of 1 Cor 12 sits with those chapters of Acts which in my eyes contradict it ? ( your view that is, not 1 Cor 12 itself ).

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You can prove anything with logic if the chain of long and convoluted enough, which is pretty much what you've done here. I prefer to use the Bible to interpret the Bible.

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ok here we go my friend

I am going out on a limb here..

In another post, you asked somebody

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No, it does not say they were saved. How can anyone be saved if they do not have the Holy Spirit ?

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Now
lets get onto acts 2, 8, 10 and 19... of course that is a few chapters so i will be quite brief..
First i must say two things - ones i've said before though..
1) Tounges IS a manfestation of the spirit - but not the sole one.
2) We don't need to have some physical tanglible proof of salvation which is a FAITH matter

so lets get to acts 2: I love acts 2.. and Yes the Holy Spirit did come, and Yes tounges was manifested... Many will argue for a purpose because that gift at that time served a purpose. Which indeed it did - as per 1 cor 12 : 7 it profited withal.. God used the tounges to preach to 3000 who then were saved and baptised - AMEN.. (note that it doesn't say that those 3000 then spoke in tounges.. Were they thus not christians? also You'll note there are many times where Paul is definately talking to or about Saved Christians, and just mentions them as believers even though tounges wasn't mentioned. The point of all these acts chapters isn't tounges or not tounges.. That is just a detail that pops up along the narrative which is history.. So this acts 2 doesn't show that salvation always results in tounges.. it just shows that is how the Holy Spirit manifested itself on the occasion, and for purpose.. Though , like you, I also believe he manifests himself upon recieving the Holy Spirit, this way often - though i don't see it is done as PROOF OF PURCHASE and if this form of tounges is thus a form of salvation , maybe you should add a few more prerequisites like flames or tounges of fire upon the believers, and people around who understand that native tounge.. However i do believe that the tounges in this scripture is a gift that you can recieve today, not just in the precanon days, and that it is a good gift from a loving God.
Acts 8 - ok there are two seperate issues here.. its the believers recieving the Holy Spirit, and the whole thing of Simon. lets go over the first ones first
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
So the question of salvation is before they recieved the HOly Spirit , were they saved. TO deny they were is to deny the very words of Jesus, and more of the very clear scriptures of salvation in the bible.. However to live an effective Christian life - we need the Holy Spirit.. and YES they received the Holy Spirit.. Note here that it doesn't mention that they spoke in tounges - so that everybody could be sure they received the Holy Spirit, as if some physical proof or a specific manifestation was needed.. It doesn't mean that they DIDn't speak in tounges, for many may have. But it means that by this scripture you can't link "receiving the Holy Ghost" with speaking in tounges.. And the interesting thing is the Manifestation of the Spirit this Simon wanted wasn't tounges, but to be able to heal by the Spirit, but for his own selfish, prideful benefit..
You hold the fact that simon 'believed' and was baptised as that their can be believers who aren't saved. BUt i'd point you to read Jesus parable of the sower. And also don't you think there are false conversions.. People 'trying God out' to see how well it benefits them.. This seems to be the case here.. Its definately not the context or grounds to build the doctrine of tounges upon.. its conjecture at best..
ACTS 10
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

This is probably the only case you can say that tounges were meant as evidence of salvation, but not really.. At the time they started speaking in tounges, maybe they hadn't believed? it wasn't evidence to Peter that they were saved, though i suspect that they were.. IT was evidence to Peter God had given the GENTILES the Holy Spirit. It was less of an evidence that these people were saved, but that Gentiles could be saved, and even recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit. So again a purpose. God could have used a different manifestation no doubt, but God is God. This however doesn't prove that tounges always follows recieving the Holy Spirit, not its corequisite to salvation.

ACTS 19
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Here these people hadn't even being baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus.. but anyhow you can't read the state of salvation from it.. you can read however that when the Holy Spirit came upon them, tounges which is a common manifestation of the Holy spirit happened... but alas also another manifestation of the Spirit - prophesy happened..Thus should I build a doctrine that 'unless you prophesy' you aren't saved?

from all the furnished scriptures, it can easily be told that the doctrine of salvation/tounges is build upon vague interprations of scriptures that in themselves, or even together do not solidly support their interpretation according to this doctrine.

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

quote:

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I believe i was taking pauls words at face value.. not presenting long convoluted logic but i choose to forgive your insinuation.

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Great - then I'll forgive you this:

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from all the furnished scriptures, it can easily be told that the doctrine of salvation/tounges is build upon vague interprations of scriptures that in themselves, or even together do not solidly support their interpretation according to this doctrine.

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Despite my born again tounges speaking christian heretage.. I would say YES. (in the context you are asking) I would say they can be saved without being Baptised in the Holy Spirit.. However I believe that a person can only 'BELIEVE' and accept Christ in the first place as the Holy Spirit works on their heart.. But thats another issue, another discussion..

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The Bible no-where differentiates between someone being filled with the Spirit in a NT sense, and being baptised in the Spirit. Nowhere does it indicate we can receive more Spirit, or the Spirit in two parts. Instead it says this:

Jhn 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [unto him].

Jhn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

You sort of waffle a bit about Jesus and the Spirit, I can't derive any meaning from any of that, most of it is true, but none of it addresses any meaningful point that I can see.

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1) Tounges IS a manfestation of the spirit - but not the sole one.

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Bible record please. Where is there ever another manifestation ?

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2) We don't need to have some physical tanglible proof of salvation which is a FAITH matter

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1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

So how do we know He has given us of His Spirit ? To say we know because we believe we dwell in Him makes the above verse circular and meaningless, and to say we cannot know also makes it meaningless. Any non visible sign makes a joke of Acts 8.

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God used the tounges to preach to 3000 who then were saved and baptised - AMEN..

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No, totally wrong. The people who were saved and baptised heard tongues and understood them, but they also were able to tell the Apostles what they heard in a common language AND they still needed to ask 'what must we do'. Tongues did not preach to them, or bridge any language gap.

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it doesn't say that those 3000 then spoke in tounges.. Were they thus not christians?

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It does not mention the blood of Jesus paying the price for their sins, does that mean that it didn't ? Or does the Bible not need to mention every detail, every time ?

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also You'll note there are many times where Paul is definately talking to or about Saved Christians, and just mentions them as believers even though tounges wasn't mentioned.

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Jesus said believers would speak in tongues. A believer is not just someone who believes, the Greek word means more than that, more in line with Jesus saying 'why say you love me and do not the things I say'.

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TO deny they were is to deny the very words of Jesus, and more of the very clear scriptures of salvation in the bible..

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Not at all. Verses that say we are saved by believing are NOT precise at all, they don't tell us who Jesus is, or what to believe of Him.

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Note here that it doesn't mention that they spoke in tounges - so that everybody could be sure they received the Holy Spirit, as if some physical proof or a specific manifestation was needed

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If no physical proof was evident, how did they know they did not have the Spirit ? More to the point, how is this possible if they were saved, being believers ?

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And the interesting thing is the Manifestation of the Spirit this Simon wanted wasn't tounges, but to be able to heal by the Spirit, but for his own selfish, prideful benefit..

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Sorry mate, wrong again. Simon saw people being healed earlier, but he offered money:

Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

Perhaps you need to do some more research... :-)

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You hold the fact that simon 'believed' and was baptised as that their can be believers who aren't saved.

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Goodness, no. I hold to the fact that ALL in Samaria were baptised believers and were not saved to mean that there can be unsaved believers.

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it wasn't evidence to Peter that they were saved, though i suspect that they were.. IT was evidence to Peter God had given the GENTILES the Holy Spirit.

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Man, this is so bizarre. People can have the SPirit but not be saved, be saved but not have the Spirit. Do you believe all of this, or are you making it up in the process of opposing what I am saying ? I don't want to be rude, but I'm stunned.

Perhaps you'd like to take a deep breath, read some of the scriptures and get back to me ? You need to actually tell me what you believe the manifestation of the Spirit to be, in a way that doesn't turn Acts 8 into a nonsense.

Or maybe we should just stop. Final sentences like those that grace your last few posts tell me that you're grandstanding for the benefit of others, wanting to show them how you know better than me, rather than actually discussing anything. If that's not your attitude, you should consider that you're coming across that way. I'm not up for fighting, I'm up for discussion of the Bible.

I'm tired and its very late thus i'm turning in and will answer the specific questions later however as far as "grandstanding" etc, I shall seek some Godly council for a know the human heart (including mine) is decietful above all things..

my desire however, as far as i can self-reflect goes, for this post, was to do the opposite of argue.. it was to take the scriptures that you claim people avoid and don't answer.. the ones that are used to back up this doctrine.. and to go through them, sharing my belief and understanding, and diligently studying them and commenting on them in the context of tounges/salvation etc.. the whole point was to not argue back and forth.. but to use it to definately comment on the scriptures or range of scriptures..
first 1 cor 12
then you asked how much understanding can tie in with the various acts chapters, and thus the 2nd post..

for now,

Good night

Karl

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

quote:

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The manifestation he desired was the ability to heal

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No, it *wasn't*. I've already shown from the Bible that it was to give the Holy Spirit.

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Such as the part about simon.. you say Nope.. but then say the same point that i was trying to make

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You said the point was that Simon was baptised and not saved, the point is that ALL in Samaria were baptised and unsaved. Please clarify which of the two you mean, and which you think I mean.

Karl

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

No worries, mate.